Since there has been debate over the financial aspects of installing solar/wind
vs. a standard grid connection I think it would help to see the true cost of
each.

Lets say Alex and I want to build an identical new home with identical
appliances and we will need 5kw to run those appliances.

Alex and I don't like each other or neighbors so we buy ten acres of property on
opposite sides of any highway, county road, or rural road with a grid system in
place. We build our homes at the back of the property and say this is 1 mile
distance.

Alex wants to be grid connected so he he will pay for 4 utility poles at $7000
per pole plus $2000-$3000 for transformer and connection fee.

His cost to attach to the grid is 4x$7000=$28000 plus $2000= $30,000
Alex will need to pay for this upfront to get connected.

I on the other hand want to use solar so I purchase a 5kw system at todays
prices of about $40,000. I am smart so I also use the present tax and state
rebates to get a 30% deduction of $12000 on my system. My total cost is then
$28,000. So my system cost $2000 less than Alex system for the same power.

Wait it gets better- My system is paid for and I have no utility bills while
Alex still has to pay about $100 a month at current electricity prices for the
rest of his life.

I like to have nice things so I spend that $100 a month savings a new car
payment, golf club membership or a new Harley. Or maybe I want more electricity
so I increase my system with the savings.

You see folks people make the mistake of thinking your power bill is the only
cost for your grid electricity. If you buy a home the builder paid for the
connection and adds it to the cost of the home. You are still paying for that
connection.

Plus I hired a local solar contractor and two employees to install my system
providing local jobs and purchased my panels from a US company also providing
jobs. My neighbors kids work for those companies and now they have jobs and can
afford their own solar homes.

Unfortunately, Alex chose a state with coal generators and the cap and trade has
raised his rates by 75% and they just keep going up. His $100 a month bill is
now $175 with no end in sight.

Alex and I want to live in a healthy environment and while my solar electric
produces no toxins his dirty coal electricity poisons the air near his house and
he gets sick, his flowers die, and his water is undrinkable.

These are the true costs of solar/wind vs. grid electric folks!

*prices are based on Utah figures and many states charge more.

LaMar
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com

If alternative energy is in your plans it will probably require different
housing designs ?

At present we have gotten into a McMansion style of home building. Large homes
with poor insulation, lack of passive solar features, water wasting and
electricity wasting appliances and excess-excess-excess.

If you want to continue living that way you can probably expect to pay much
higher energy costs in the future. It will also make switching to solar/wind or
other alternative energy much more expensive and less desirable.

If you are considering downsizing or building a new home consider going smaller.
Smaller homes cost less to build, less to heat, less to cool, less property
taxes, and less effort to keep clean.

They will also likely increase faster in resale value than large homes as more
people are looking for affordable efficient homes.

Also consider adding passive solar features, a solarium, southern exposed
windows, solar water heating.

These can be included in the house cost and spread over payments. The benefit is
a more efficient home and smaller utility bills.

If you can switch to solar/wind electric it is worth the expense and will make
your home more valuable if resold. The current expense for new homes without
utility conections in Utah is $7000 per pole plus $2000-$3000 for connection and
you still have a monthly power bill.

That money would buy you a decent size solar/wind system and give you
independence from the power company. Spend the extra money to super-insulate
your home and consider some of the new methods using SIPS or foam insulation.
Like to be different consider straw bale construction.

Most people get stuck with whatever appliances the builder got a deal on but
consider switching to energy star appliances and low watt fluorescent lights
when building your own. The savings is a lot.

For off-grid or on grid look at propane for appliances or NG if available. This
will reduce your solar electric needs. NG and propane are widely available and
cost is coming down in most areas. They burn clean and can be used for almost
all large appliances.

Place your house so it gets direct southern exposure for solar panels and
passive solar. So many homes built are just placed wrong so that solar  won't be
of much benefit.

Instead of a regular architect get someone with solar/wind experience to design
your home. It wont cost more and you will get financial benefit.

Look at passive in floor water heating, solar air heaters and geothermal units
for even bigger savings on heat.

LaMar
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com

The green plants trap sunlight energy and convert it into
electrochemical energy. Now scientists want to imitate the process of
photosynthesis to produce clean and green liquid fuels from carbon
dioxide and water. Read more at http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you are considering going off-grid or wondering why anyone would do it lets
talk.

1. One main reason people go off-grid is because electrical services etc. are
not available in the area the want to live in.There are many people choosing to
live in very rural areas away from big city life and enjoy the pleasures of
nature and off-grid living allows them that freedom.

2. Financial hardship: some people (many more now) have lost jobs and homes and
will move to a small inexpensive off-grid home out of necessity. Some will fail
and return to city life but many stay off-grid as they learn to enjoy living
within their means and develop a sustainable lifestyle.

3. Financial freedom: Many off-gridders were city workers and saved enough money
to move off-grid and save themselves from city expenses.
Living off-grid is generally much cheaper than living in the city. Most
off-gridders own their homes and property outright and have almost no utility
bills. They can retire and live inexpensively or use their savings to travel and
enjoy their hobbies. With the high cost of rent, house payments and utilities no
longer a burden they can live like they are rich without being rich.

4. Personal freedom: Many off-gridders are tired of the political work
environment, tax burden, and government interference. Living off-grid gives you
some protection from being told what to do and when.There are fewer rules in
rural areas and less officials, strangers and neighbors to get in your business.

5. Financial pursuits: Lots of off-gridders are self employed. Many use the
internet to run businesses or have a home business that allows them to work when
they want and make and keep more of their money. Small homesteads can be used
for making money in farmers markets, animal raising, or specialty farming.

6.Hobbies: many off-gridders I know have outdoor hobbies that would not be
possible in the city. Raising animals, ATV riding, gardening, fishing, hunting,
hiking, camping, are now possible all the time.

7. family life: Many off-gridders moved away from city life to spend more time
with family and protect children from the influences of city life. Some
homeschool but many prefer small town schools and personal attention for their
children.

8.Health: living in the city is more dangerous and unhealthy than living in a
rural area. Clean air and water, fresh foods, more exercise opportunities means
off-gridders generally live longer.

9. Environmental conscience: many off-gridders believe thay have a personal
responsibility to reduce their impact on the environment and leave a better
planet for future generations. Some may be radical in their beliefs but most
believe it is a personal choice and one they willingly make. Off-gridders
generally reduce, reuse and recycle more than city dwellers and use less
non-renewable fuels.

10. Fun: Being an off-gridder is an opportunity to learn to be self-sufficient.
To understand how to heat and light a house for free. To grow things and create
things and see how everything you do impacts the world in positive and negative
ways. For most of us this learning and feeling of self-confidence is fun.

11. Survival: There are some off-gridders that believe our world is falling
apart and feel more protected living away from the city and having more
self-sufficiency. Some are radicals but most just see the possibility and plan
for the worst while hoping for the best. After this current financial meltdown
more people are wishing they had been better prepared and off-gridders are more
likely to not feel the hurt of the recession as much as city folk.

12. Spiritual: Many off-gridders have a unique spirit that drives them to ignore
the norm and not want to live like everyone else. This uniqueness is sometimes
perceived as hermit like or lacking social skills but if you take time to know
an off-gridder you will find they are usually very social, educated, and have
groups of close friends and social outlets just like everyone else. Off-gridders
are very independent and feel no reason to follow the crowds or the media and
are not worried about what people think about their lifestyle.

So these are all reasons many people go off-grid and I can say all of them apply
to me and most of my off-grid friends.

If you are an off-gridder or want to be please tell us your reason for choosing
this lifestyle ?

LaMar
www.simplesolarhomesteading.com

A London based company called Solar Botanic intends to use Energy
Harvesting Trees to generate solar as well as wind energy. The solution
is unique in a sense that the same installation can use two alternative
energy sources to produce clean electricity. Read more at
http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just letting folks know I have added 5 new plans to my ebook "Simple
Solar Homesteading" its now 198 pages long. Full of pics and
step-by-step easy to follow plans.

The ebook now includes plans for:

Solarium porch, Solar air heater, solar methane generator, tipi
greenhouse, solar clothes washer, plus how to install a wood stove.

You can see my website for more info:

http://www.freewebs.com/simplesolarhomesteading

Please contact me offline for questions about the ebook so we don't
clutter this group with personal business.

LaMar

Within the Dorchester, Berinsfield, Drayton catchment area is a
proposed development of a huge incinerator which we do not want,
incineration is an out dated idea, recycling and renewable energy is
the way forward, so there is a counter proposal to put up a wind
turbine on the site instead. C:)

An Idaho-based company called Solar Roadways has been attempting to
solve this energy crisis in its distinctive way. According to Scott
Brusaw of Solar Roadways we can counter the energy crisis by adopting a
unique method. We can construct Solar Roadways! Read more at
http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Recently I have come across an article on use of solar energy as a
viable alternative energy resource. This article explains that FabDigs
to be a San Jose based company started by Howard Chong to help
consumers and businesses gain a better understanding of solar and
clean energy technologies.FabDigs Solar is a news resource and
directory of solar professionals dedicated to helping consumers and
businesses find the best ways to reduce their carbon footprint and
save money.

For more information on solar footprints check out this cool site
www.fabdigs.com

How about a vehicle that not only draws energy from an electric grid but
also gives it back when there is surplus or unused energy in the
vehicle? This is exactly the kind of car being developed by Willett
Kempton, a renewable-energy professor at the University of Delaware.
Read more at http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi folks,

Name is LaMar and I am a long time off-grid homesteader. I live in
Utah in a solar cabin I built myself. I use solar for almost
everything and designed a solar composting toilet and solar methane
generator.I also drilled my own water well and harvest rain and gray
water.

Hope to make some friends and share ideas.

LaMar
http://www.freewebs.com/simplesolarhomesteading

A butterfly's wing can help us enhancing the solar power efficiency.
Butterfly wings have scales that act as tiny solar collectors.
Researchers from China and Japan are working on designing more efficient
solar cells while taking inspiration from the butterfly wings. If
successful, this discovery may lead to powering homes, businesses and
other applications in the future. Read more at
http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Near Granada, Spain, more than 28,000 metric tons of salt is now
coursing through pipes at the Andasol 1 power plant. That salt will be
used to solve a pressing if obvious problem for solar power: What do you
do when the sun is not shining and at night? Find the answer at
http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The city of Los Angles is taking up the world's most ambitious solar
power project. Till date this project will be the largest solar power
plan started by any city in the world. They are planning to install 1.3
Giga Watts (GW) of solar power and register their city's name in the
book of green economy. Read more at http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We can use slow moving ocean and river waves for a new, reliable and
affordable alternative energy source. A University of Michigan engineer
has developed a device that acts like a fish that turns the potentially
destructive vibrations in water into clean, renewable energy. Read more
at http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

These vehicles, known as velomobiles, allow a single occupant to travel
faster than a bicycle using their own power. Power assist systems are
available as an option. These vehicles, known as velomobiles, allow a
single occupant to travel faster than a bicycle using their own power.
Power assist systems are available as an option. Read more at
http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

KOBE (Kyodo) The world's first large ship to use the sun to help power
engine-related devices was unveiled Friday in Kobe, with a ceremony to
turn on the flow of energy from solar panels installed on deck. Read
more at http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A new technology – solar power – has come to Old Glory.

A partnership between the Massachusetts Technology Collaborative and the
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 223 has enabled
Harwich to light the flagpole outside Harwich Community Center using
renewable energy and at no cost to the town.Read more at
http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/
<http://earthalternate.blogspot.com/>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I hope this film does for peak oil, what Al Gore did for climate change.

Buy you friends a copy for Christmas!

Clive :-))

--- In Beyond_cheap_fuel@..., "p3t3r313" <p3t3r313@...>
wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> FUEL, a film about how we get off of foreign oil, will be out in
Bend and Yelm this Friday.
> http://thefuelfilm.com/theaters
>
> P
>

Hey,

FUEL, a film about how we get off of foreign oil, will be out in Bend and Yelm
this Friday.
http://thefuelfilm.com/theaters

P

Amrica?? All of us you mean??! ;-))


Good luck with it!!

Clv :)

--- In Beyond_cheap_fuel@..., "thefuelfilm"
<thefuelfilm@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> My Sundance Audience Award winning film FUEL, which is about
America's dependency on
> foreign oil and the search for alternative energy, is out now in
Portland. It will also be out in
> Seattle and Austin this friday.
>
> If you want to see FUEL in your city, request it at your local theater.
>
> Change your fuel... change the world,
> Josh
> thefuelfilm.com
>

Hi,

My Sundance Audience Award winning film FUEL, which is about America's
dependency on
foreign oil and the search for alternative energy, is out now in Portland. It
will also be out in
Seattle and Austin this friday.

If you want to see FUEL in your city, request it at your local theater.

Change your fuel... change the world,
Josh
thefuelfilm.com

my name is tracy i live in ohio and ive built towers for the past 15
years.. ive saved parts and gathered ideas for over 6 years
in the parts area and two in the teaching myself area of making my own
electric..
im not very well educated with words but im great with hand work..
ive got a welding shop likee and im pretty understanding if engins in
cars .. i work on my own cars ..
ive read about wind mills and i go to other sites to gather
information to help me in my quest for cheap easy free energy stsems
that dont come with monthly bill. im 45 and i cant cut and haul wood
like i used to and i know that is coming to an end in my future..
ive looked into ram pumps for my spring to suppy water..
ive got a good idea on building it and now am looking at a way to make
a long life pump .. 50 years ..
ive an 80 foot tower still in sections on the ground .. 12'' 50 year
galvanized pipe designed for tower use..
its nice to see Lister engines and windmills together.. as i think the
generators in wind mills could also be use on a lister  engine.
the idea of making a 10 to 16 foot windmill that could last 50 years
troblem free seams to be a challenge..
im sure i could make all the bearings last and the tower and mounting
brackets but its the electrical that seams to be the most undependable
step .. in making your gen set up..
the task of making a system that last 50 years is in my mind the only
way to justify the system.. other wise a poor guy like me can pay the
70 dollar electric bill smother then working on this project ..
my work helps in the windmill area and i would love to find an old gas
type engine like a Lister engine im wanting to use a wood gas system
to run it maybe even use a hydrogen system along with it..
this is still up in the air ..
id like to say hi and i hope to learn more on how complete my idea
/project
thanks tracy

This is one I spotted on ebay, its two cast frames with woden rails,
we have one of these things and it works a treat! See item no.
190236921127

Clive :)

I've lust ordered the three kw version of the following for the
Lister, see ebay item no. 170273024369

Clive :-))

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhbknz6nvhw

This is the tattier of my two engines running at about 450 ish rpm.

...anyone know how to get a YouTube vid to play in a continuous loop??

Hey,
The trailer for the award winning documentary about alternative energy is out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBlLGBd3mU4
Also, there will be screenings in Portland, Seattle, and Austin.
For more information check thefuelfilm.com

Pete,
Register to vote headcount.org

Hi Gang,

Drained out and refilled the old thumper with ordinary diesel and ran
it for three hours, (You Tube
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhbknz6nvhw)  am still to take apart and
inspect the filter, another time soon perhaps.

Clv:-))



--- In Beyond_cheap_fuel@..., "stevedewin"
<stevedewin@...> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > --- In Beyond_cheap_fuel@..., Del Martin
> > <del_martins@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Clive,
> > > Are you running it on glycerol or glycerin?   Glycerol still has the
> > methanol in it and glycerin has it removed.
> > > Del
> > >
> > >
>
> I cant find reference to that fact can you point me in the direction
> so i can read up on it. This is all i can find and other similar
> references are the same.
>
> Glycerol
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
>
>
> Glycerol is a chemical compound also commonly called glycerin or
> glycerine. It is a colorless, odorless, viscous liquid that is widely
> used in pharmaceutical formulations.
>
>    Steve
>

>
> --- In Beyond_cheap_fuel@..., Del Martin
> <del_martins@> wrote:
> >
> > Clive,
> > Are you running it on glycerol or glycerin?   Glycerol still has the
> methanol in it and glycerin has it removed.
> > Del
> >
> >

I cant find reference to that fact can you point me in the direction
so i can read up on it. This is all i can find and other similar
references are the same.

Glycerol
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Glycerol is a chemical compound also commonly called glycerin or
glycerine. It is a colorless, odorless, viscous liquid that is widely
used in pharmaceutical formulations.

    Steve

Hi, I'd guess its glycerol, it's the waste product of bio-diesel
production. I've since taken all the fuel lines off and drained it all
out.

Now that I know it works, I'd rather come up with a blended fuel
containing glycerol, rather then running it straight - not least
because there are left over nasties in it that somehow need to be
neutralized if possible (chemistry is a bit of a black art to me).

I was thinking of posting the question on one of the Lister engine
groups, but was afraid of a torrent of "You ran your engine on
WHAAT!!!?!?!?!".

Clive ;-))



--- In Beyond_cheap_fuel@..., Del Martin
<del_martins@...> wrote:
>
> Clive,
> Are you running it on glycerol or glycerin?   Glycerol still has the
methanol in it and glycerin has it removed.
> Del
>
> --- On Mon, 10/20/08, clive493048 <cliveburke@...> wrote:
> From: clive493048 <cliveburke@...>
> Subject: [Beyond_cheap_fuel] Lister Engines on glycerin??
> To: Beyond_cheap_fuel@...
> Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 2:52 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Gang,
>
>
>
> I've been experimenting with running my old Lister 'CS' engine on
>
> glycerin, and it does seem to work, though I have to start it on
>
> diesel. I've been given several tanks of glycerin as a by product of
>
> biodiesel production'
>
>
>
> I seem to have difficulty mixing it with other fuels, alas chemistry
>
> is not a strong point, any thoughts from anyone on running engines off
>
> or mixing glycerin with other liquids.
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
> Clive :-))
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>