Mrk et al,

I have a copy of the Lockwood book with the reference that Montagu uses
- but it is 1,000km away at home.

I'll be in Adelaide in a week or so and will check with some v.
experienced anthros there as to whether they know of any (other)
instances.

I recall some (attenborough?) footage of birds at fires - though pretty
sure it didn't have any fire-carrying footage...

And while Australia is widely regarded as a continent shaped by fire
(and maybe Stephen Pyne may have something further re birds?) it seems a
giant leap of faith to posit that firebirds may have contributed to that
process - though it would be great if they did!!

On the road so very short on i/net time.

Best to you all and keep this thread flowing!

Bob
--- In Ethnoornithology@..., Mark Bonta <markabonta@...>
wrote:
>
> Thanks!!
>
> As I said before, if this kind of behavior were -- I hate to say
> 'confirmed' because we get into some sticky language -- but at least
> acceptable to Western fire ecology , I think we could have a pretty
> important paper in the works. I suspect that without independent
> confirmation of the behavior (a video would be ideal) many geographers
and environmental scientists would not take it seriously. Bob -- do you
think it's possible to get hard and fast documentation of this
practice?
>
> I am relatively well aware of the literature on fire, at least from
the 90s, and I don't recall this behavior ever being mentioned. I have a
very good sense of what would tend to become very important to
geographers, which is why I've latched onto this. I think millennia of
kites setting purposeful fires would force us to rethink our assumptions
that pyrophytic landscapes over such great expanses are solely due to
10K or more years of human effort.
>
> I'm still trying to track down the reference to the NT Aboriginal
group
> that related the movement of the firehawk's legs while it was flying
> over burns, to the way that people make fires.
>
> Dr. Mark Bonta
> Associate Professor of Geography
> Division of Social Sciences
> Kethley 226, PO Box 3264
> Delta State University
> Cleveland, MS 38733
> Tel. 662.846.4096 [w]; 843.6205 [h]; Fax: 662.846.4099
> Alternate email: mbonta@...
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Heather Teague yodaseablue@...
> To: Ethnoornithology@...; mtw30@...
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 11:52:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ethnoornithology] Re: Firebirds!?
>
>
>
>
>
> A Remarkable Case of Tool-Using in a Bird
> Author(s): Ashley Montagu
> Source: American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 72, No. 3 (Jun.,
1970), p. 610
> Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American
Anthropological Association
> Stable URL: http://www.jstor. org/stable/ 673006
> Accessed: 11/05/2009 12:34
>
>
> A REMARKABLE CASE OF TOOL-USING IN A BIRD
> ASHLEY MONTAGU
> Princeton, N.J.
>
> Accepted for publication 18 February 1970.
>
> To the growing list of tool-users among animals other than man should
be added the Northern Territory kitehawk or, as he is called among the
aborigines of that part of Australia, the firehawk. In the fascinating
book about his life, I, The Aboriginal (Ade- laide: Griffin, 1962),
written down by Douglas Lockwood, Waipuldanya, an abori- ginal of the
Alawa tribe at Roper River, says, "I have seen a hawk pick up a smoul-
dering stick in its claws and drop it in a fresh patch of dry grass half
a mile away, then wait with its mates for the mad exodus of scorched and
frightened rodents and rep- tiles. When that area was burnt out the pro-
cess was repeated elsewhere. We call these fires Jaluran" (p. 93). Is
this, possibly, the first recorded case of the use of fire by a nonhuman
animal?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mark Bonta markabonta@yahoo. com>
> To: Ethnoornithology@ yahoogroups. co.uk; mtw30@... uk
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 11:06:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ethnoornithology] Re: Firebirds!?
>
>
> Does anyone have quick access to this article? It apparently
references Milvus:
>
> http://www.jstor. org/pss/673006
>
>
> * A Remarkable Case of Tool-Using in a Bird
> * Ashley Montagu
> * American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 72, No. 3 (Jun., 1970),
p. 610
> (article consists of 1 page)
> * Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American
Anthropological Association
> * Stable URL: http://www.jstor. org/stable/ 673006I'm still trying to
track down the earlier reference I had seen -- I believe it involved the
term "fire hawk"
>
>
> Dr. Mark Bonta
> Associate Professor of Geography
> Division of Social Sciences
> Kethley 226, PO Box 3264
> Delta State University
> Cleveland, MS 38733
> Tel. 662.846.4096 [w]; 843.6205 [h]; Fax: 662.846.4099
> Alternate email: mbonta@deltastate. edu
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: martin_t_walsh mtw30@... uk>
> To: Ethnoornithology@ yahoogroups. co.uk
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 3:28:07 AM
> Subject: [Ethnoornithology] Re: Firebirds!?
>
>
> Mark, I can't see any statement like that in Birds of my Kalam
Country. Here's the paragraph about Black Kites (square brackets in the
original; the /n/ of anmt is a velar nasal that I can't reproduce here):
>
> "Anmt or kob-bg-ket [the Black Kite, Milvus migrans] is another
bird which hunts in the open country and the gardens, taking rats and
snakes and worms from the ground. It is dark brown, partly black on the
under-surface of its wings. I can't translate anmt, but kob-bg-ket means
'it haunts the burnt-off grassland'. When large areas of grass are
burnt, this bird sometimes appears and catches small animals as they try
to escape from the fire, and picks up dead creatures that the fire has
left." (Majnep and Bulmer 1977: 144)
>
> That's all there is in the text about the behaviour of Black Kites
(and nothing like it in descriptions of other raptors, not that I can
see with a quick scan).
>
> Martin
>
>
> --- In Ethnoornithology@ yahoogroups. co.uk, Mark Bonta markabonta@
..> wrote:
> >
> > I saw a ref online to Birds of My Kalem Country, where the kite was
linked to fire not only because it swooped around active burns, but also
the way it moved its legs/talons appeared like the movements humans
start to make fire. Can you check that (I don't have access to the
book)?
> >
> > mb
> >
> > Dr. Mark Bonta
> > Associate Professor of Geography
> > Division of Social Sciences
> > Kethley 226, PO Box 3264
> > Delta State University
> > Cleveland, MS 38733
> > Tel. 662.846.4096 [w]; 843.6205 [h]; Fax: 662.846.4099
> > Alternate email: mbonta@
> >
> >
>