Hý everyone
I'm planning to make an academic study about traditional goldfinc
breeding. I need some literature & publication about breeding of
goldfinches traditionally.
With best wishes

Dear all,

Further to the previous discussions about this topic I may have found the best
source so far on birds carrying fire...

In "Malakmalak and Matngala Plants and Anilams - Aboriginal Flora and Fauna
Knowledge from the Daly River area, Northern Australia", published as the NT
Botanical Bulletin No. 26 by the Parks & Wildlife Commission of the NT in 2001.
(ISSN: 0314-1810)

At page 78 it has the following reference:

"Black Kite, Chicken Hawk (Kerrk - Malamalak, Num - Matngala). Milvus migrans.
Often seen flying around near fires hunting for insects and small lizards
escaping the fire. The name refers to its distinctive call "kerrk-kerrk-kerrk".
In the creation period or dreamtime, Kerrk stole fire sticks from the Dingo, so
that he could cook the Ckeeky yam. Kerrk is still attrcated to fires and
occasionally he can be seen carrying burning sticks from an existing fire to
start more fires further away."

No time for any further analysis or discussion today as I'm getting ready for
another field trip but I trust this stimultaes some further discussion.

Cheers,

Bob

Joyanne,

Indeed very funny - almost (but not quite) six degrees of separation...

two points - firstly, have you seen the book by Priscilla N Russell and George
West "Bird Traditions of the Lime Village Area Dena'ina - Upper Stony River
Ethno-ornithology"? - for mine it is a great example of a local ethnoornithology
- lot of information, great involvement with and credit given to the local
people who made the book and lots of information on how people use and what the
believe and know about all of the birds in their country - I can't recommend it
enough - particularly as a teaching tool (though I'm not a teacher!) but also as
a model for anyone wanting to do a local ethnoornithology.

The second point is about methodology (something I believe is a of crucial
importance in an emerging sub-discipline like ethnoornithology) - fellow
ethnoorn worker Martin Walsh of Cambridge Uni has worked in Kenya & east Africa
for many years and has an early project (now digitised?) that involved giving
school children exercise books and asking them to record the stories of their
elders while at home - the project hasn't been written up yet but it sounds like
a great, fun and easy way to engage school-aged children and their families in a
good project.

And thanks for kicking off the discussion at Birdchat - we've already spilled
over into Birding Aus (the Australian version) - where next?

Bob Gosford

--- In Ethnoornithology@..., Joyanne Hamilton <innoko_bird@...>
wrote:
>
> This is too funny.  Thanks, Mr. Gosford.
>
> Actually, I was the one who posted it on BirdChat because I was
> inspired by the chatter on THIS listserv regarding birds and fire and
> Indigenous stories.
> Thank you for this fascinating thread on this listserv.
>
> I teach here in rural Alaska and love hearing Indigenous stories about
> all living things.  One of my classes this summer is "Fire Science" in
> which we investigate fire's properties and it's impact on the
> environment (both good and bad).  I will be sharing with my students
> the stories you have had regarding birds and fire and traditional
> stories in Kenya.  We've also done comparisons of (western hemisphere)
> indigenous stories before with regards to migrating species which come
> from South America to Alaska and return. Swallow stories are
> especially fun to research.
>
> I think in my next life I want to be an Ethnoornithologist.  Thank you
> for the inspiration!
>
> Joyanne Hamilton
> Shageluk, Alaska
>
> On May 26, 2009, at 12:50 PM, Robert Gosford wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Just a quick note to advise that over at Birdchat
(http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=BIRDCHAT
> > ) there is a discussion thread on 'Birds and Fire' - most of the
> > discussion is about the relationship/s between birds and habitats
> > affected by presence/absence of fire.
> >
> > I'll post a message there advising Birdchatters of the recent
> > discussion about birds as fire vectors/beneficiaries we've been
> > having here.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Bob Gosford
> >
> >
> >
>

Dear all,

Just a quick note to advise that over at Birdchat
(http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=BIRDCHAT) there is a discussion
thread on 'Birds and Fire' - most of the discussion is about the relationship/s
between birds and habitats affected by presence/absence of fire.

I'll post a message there advising Birdchatters of the recent discussion about
birds as fire vectors/beneficiaries we've been having here.

Cheers,

Bob Gosford

Go Mercy! - we have two species of Kites (Milvus & Elanus) and a Stoek! And I've
seen good footage of Brown falcons (Falco berigora) preying on crispy critters
in the ashes...
And Mercy, please tell us more about your adventures in the States!
Best,
Bob

--- In Ethnoornithology@..., "mercyc07" <mercyc07@...> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Fascinating informations about Black kite and the fire.....I do not know about
the Black Kites spreading the fire....but i do know of the Storks doing a
similar thing and people believed that the Storks are spreading the fire but
through my keen observations....the Storks take advantage of the dead
inverterbrates exposed after the fire...and that when you see Storks feeding in
midst smoke after the fire.....
>
> Mercy
>
>
>
> --- In Ethnoornithology@..., "Robert Gosford" <bgosford@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Somehow, and it appears via the WildbirdsSingapore group, our discussion
made it to the BirdingAus Australian birds webgroup - a few contributions
included below:
> >
> > 13/05 - fom Dave Stowe - Isn't this behaviour attributed to Black Kites
rather than Whistling?
> >
> > Cheers
> > Dave
> >
> > Later that day from "Gemfyre" - I have heard of Black Kites doing this, so
that's the probably the species they're referring to.  I've also observed Black
Kites hanging around fisherman waiting for a handout.
> >
> > Belinda Forbes
> > Stirling W.A.
> >
> > Again on 13/05 - The bird in question is the Black Kite, which arrives in
gangs
> > at a grass fire. I have read complaints by people fighting fires that the
> > Kites deliberately swooped down to snatch burning sticks to spread the
> > fire further, and when we visited Kakadu more than 10 years ago, we heard
the
> > same story from a Ranger.
> >   Let's hope Denise sees this post. I am sure she will know.
> >
> > Anthea Fleming
> >
> > and again on 13/05 - Carl,
> >
> > You have pretty much quoted the article verbatim.  I couldn't find any
citations on google scholar.
> >
> > The source document is indeed
> >
> > Douglas Lockwood (1962) "I, the aboriginal"  Adelaide : Rigby
> >
> > Note
> > Written from interview with Philip Roberts (Waipuldanya or Wadjiri-Wadjiri)
> >
> > Regards, Laurie.
> >
> > Thats all for now - will keep you posted.
> > And I agree with the consensus that it is the Black Kite Milvus migrans -
which in Asia (?) and certainly in Africa occurs as the sub-species Yellow-faced
(?) Kite Milvus migrans (?) - don't have my books to hand...
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Bob
> >
>

Dear all,

Fascinating informations about Black kite and the fire.....I do not know about
the Black Kites spreading the fire....but i do know of the Storks doing a
similar thing and people believed that the Storks are spreading the fire but
through my keen observations....the Storks take advantage of the dead
inverterbrates exposed after the fire...and that when you see Storks feeding in
midst smoke after the fire.....

Mercy



--- In Ethnoornithology@..., "Robert Gosford" <bgosford@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Somehow, and it appears via the WildbirdsSingapore group, our discussion made
it to the BirdingAus Australian birds webgroup - a few contributions included
below:
>
> 13/05 - fom Dave Stowe - Isn't this behaviour attributed to Black Kites rather
than Whistling?
>
> Cheers
> Dave
>
> Later that day from "Gemfyre" - I have heard of Black Kites doing this, so
that's the probably the species they're referring to.  I've also observed Black
Kites hanging around fisherman waiting for a handout.
>
> Belinda Forbes
> Stirling W.A.
>
> Again on 13/05 - The bird in question is the Black Kite, which arrives in
gangs
> at a grass fire. I have read complaints by people fighting fires that the
> Kites deliberately swooped down to snatch burning sticks to spread the
> fire further, and when we visited Kakadu more than 10 years ago, we heard the
> same story from a Ranger.
>   Let's hope Denise sees this post. I am sure she will know.
>
> Anthea Fleming
>
> and again on 13/05 - Carl,
>
> You have pretty much quoted the article verbatim.  I couldn't find any
citations on google scholar.
>
> The source document is indeed
>
> Douglas Lockwood (1962) "I, the aboriginal"  Adelaide : Rigby
>
> Note
> Written from interview with Philip Roberts (Waipuldanya or Wadjiri-Wadjiri)
>
> Regards, Laurie.
>
> Thats all for now - will keep you posted.
> And I agree with the consensus that it is the Black Kite Milvus migrans -
which in Asia (?) and certainly in Africa occurs as the sub-species Yellow-faced
(?) Kite Milvus migrans (?) - don't have my books to hand...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bob
>

Dear all,

Somehow, and it appears via the WildbirdsSingapore group, our discussion made it
to the BirdingAus Australian birds webgroup - a few contributions included
below:

13/05 - fom Dave Stowe - Isn't this behaviour attributed to Black Kites rather
than Whistling?

Cheers
Dave

Later that day from "Gemfyre" - I have heard of Black Kites doing this, so
that's the probably the species they're referring to.  I've also observed Black
Kites hanging around fisherman waiting for a handout.

Belinda Forbes
Stirling W.A.

Again on 13/05 - The bird in question is the Black Kite, which arrives in gangs
at a grass fire. I have read complaints by people fighting fires that the
Kites deliberately swooped down to snatch burning sticks to spread the
fire further, and when we visited Kakadu more than 10 years ago, we heard the
same story from a Ranger.
   Let's hope Denise sees this post. I am sure she will know.

Anthea Fleming

and again on 13/05 - Carl,

You have pretty much quoted the article verbatim.  I couldn't find any citations
on google scholar.

The source document is indeed

Douglas Lockwood (1962) "I, the aboriginal"  Adelaide : Rigby

Note
Written from interview with Philip Roberts (Waipuldanya or Wadjiri-Wadjiri)

Regards, Laurie.

Thats all for now - will keep you posted.
And I agree with the consensus that it is the Black Kite Milvus migrans - which
in Asia (?) and certainly in Africa occurs as the sub-species Yellow-faced (?)
Kite Milvus migrans (?) - don't have my books to hand...

Cheers,

Bob

Here's a counterpoint to the Black Kite as "firebird" -- ostriches as "fire
extinguishers"!!

The following passage is from notes written by Silas Kibwece in 1992, describing
ideas about ostriches (nyaga) among the Mbeere, east of Mt. Kenya:
             "The cultural beliefs or practices associated with this particular
bird is that the bird is so fast such that if it sees a fire at a distance of
about one kilometre, the bird can run to a distance of four kilometres at least
six times dipping itself into water and returning back to where it has come from
or to where its eggs are and spreading water all over the place so that its eggs
cannot get into contact with fire.  So due to that fact, after the bush get
fire, it is very easy to trace the eggs of the ostrich because the grass or
rather vegetation around its eggs does not burn when the rest of the bush burns.
The other belief is that the bird was thought to be having a soul of human
beings because of behaving like a man after sighting a sign of fire.  This is by
running to a river or any water body after seeing fire, dip itself into the
water, run back to the place where its eggs are and spread the water it has been
carrying with its feathers around the eggs so that they do not get destroyed by
fire since it watered a big portion of grass around its eggs.
             The bird was not at all eaten because of having a human being
characteristic of putting off the fire with water."
(pp.309-311 in http://www.scribd.com/doc/14959075/Mbeere-Ethnozoology-Birds-VI,
spelling corrected)

Unlike the Australian report, this isn't claimed as first-hand observation --
indeed according to Silas there are no ostriches left in Mbeere. But is it very
different? Should we investigate this too? Are there other reports of nonhuman
animals extinguishing fires? Or can we discount this as "belief" and explain it
away (e.g. do ostrich nests sometimes survive bushfires for other reasons?)?

From a quick trawl of the web I note that ostriches are thought to be at risk
from bushfires in southern Africa. And that there are San tales which posit a
quite different relationship between ostriches and fire.

Martin Walsh
Cambridge
http://www.scribd.com/kisutu---


In Ethnoornithology@..., Mark Bonta <markabonta@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks!!
>
> As I said before, if this kind of behavior were -- I hate to say
> 'confirmed' because we get into some sticky language -- but at least
> acceptable to Western fire ecology , I think we could have a pretty
> important paper in the works. I suspect that without independent
> confirmation of the behavior (a video would be ideal) many geographers and
environmental scientists would not take it seriously. Bob -- do you think  it's
possible to get hard and fast documentation of this practice?
>
> I am relatively well aware of the literature on fire, at least from the 90s,
and I don't recall this behavior ever being mentioned. I have a very good sense
of what would tend to become very important to geographers, which is why I've
latched onto this. I think millennia of kites setting purposeful fires would
force us to rethink our assumptions that pyrophytic landscapes over such great
expanses are solely due to 10K or more years of human effort.
>
> I'm still trying to track down the reference to the NT Aboriginal group
> that related the movement of the firehawk's legs while it was flying
> over burns, to the way that people make fires.
>
>  Dr. Mark Bonta
> Associate Professor of Geography
> Division of Social Sciences
> Kethley 226, PO Box 3264
> Delta State University
> Cleveland, MS 38733
> Tel. 662.846.4096 [w]; 843.6205 [h]; Fax: 662.846.4099
> Alternate email: mbonta@...
>

Hi all,
I'm part of a project looking at language change in hunter-gatherer communities
and as part of that we're looking into flora and fauna terminology. We're
setting up a database of terms in our case study areas and would like to be able
to overlay species distribution information.
I am looking for online Geocoded species distribution maps for flora and fauna
for South-Western North America, Amazonia and North-West Australia.
Does anyone know of sources for data like this?
Thanks for your help!
Claire Bowern

-----
Department of Linguistics
Yale University

Well, here’s the latest from me.

 

Audubon is letting me go, tomorrow will be my last day here.  So I’ll have more time to work on my book on urban birds as well as my Mayan work.

 

I’m presenting a paper with Kerry Hull on Mopan and K’eqchi Mayan bird names and lore at a big social science conference in Hawaii next month, and the paper will be published in the proceedings.

 

We have a 52 page article on Eagles in Mesoamerican Cultures that is in the proofs stage.

 

We’re working on an article on the Birds and Birdlore of Santiago Atitlan, Guatemala.

 

I’ll send the details on each of these papers when they come out.

 

Rob Fergus

Soon-to-be-former-Senior Scientist, Urban Bird Conservation

National Audubon Society

 

birdchaser@hotmail.com

http://birdchaser.blogspot.com

http://www.facebook.com/people/Rob-Fergus/576507663

http://twitter.com/birdchaser

Dear Rob,

Audubon's loss may be a gain for the rest of us...I suppose it supports
the idea that you should never go on holiday..

Seriously though, it is always sad to see that agencies fail to
appreciate the value of urban-based ornithology.

On another note I think, looking at the work you have in the pipeline,
we need to get you to next years Society of Ethnobiology conference - we
could have another ethnoorn session - sounds like you and colleagues
would be able to fill a whole symposium session on your own.

Cheers,

Bob

By then Mark B may have a paper on firebirds...

Cheers and I hope that you soon find a job with someone who will
appreciate your talents.
--- In Ethnoornithology@..., "pridetr tds.net"
<pridetr@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Rob:Sorry to hear about Audubon's loss.  Wishing you the very
best.  I
> am keen to learn more about your "Eagles in Mesoamerican Cultures"
paper.
>  Do keep me informed.  We are launching new initiatives regarding
extant,
> historically based cultural usage of eagle/raptor feathers with
members of
> USF&WS.  We should stay in touch.
> Best regards,
> William TwoRaven Voelker
> Director/Founder
> Sia:  The Comanche Nation
>         Ethno-Ornithological Initiative
>         dba Comanche Nation Eagle & Raptor Program
>         P. O. Box 341, Cyril, Oklahoma  73029
> 1-580-464-2750  or 1-877-225-6186 (Toll Free)
>
>
> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 11:35 AM, FERGUS, Rob rfergus@... wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >  Well, here's the latest from me.
> >
> >
> >
> > Audubon is letting me go, tomorrow will be my last day here.  So
I'll have
> > more time to work on my book on urban birds as well as my Mayan
work.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm presenting a paper with Kerry Hull on Mopan and K'eqchi
Mayan bird
> > names and lore at a big social science conference in Hawaii next
month, and
> > the paper will be published in the proceedings.
> >
> >
> >
> > We have a 52 page article on Eagles in Mesoamerican Cultures that is
in the
> > proofs stage.
> >
> >
> >
> > We're working on an article on the Birds and Birdlore of
Santiago Atitlan,
> > Guatemala.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'll send the details on each of these papers when they come
out.
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob Fergus
> >
> > Soon-to-be-former-Senior Scientist, Urban Bird Conservation
> >
> > National Audubon Society
> >
> >
> >
> > birdchaser@...
> >
> > http://birdchaser.blogspot.com
> >
> > http://www.facebook.com/people/Rob-Fergus/576507663
> >
> > http://twitter.com/birdchaser
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Mrk et al,

I have a copy of the Lockwood book with the reference that Montagu uses
- but it is 1,000km away at home.

I'll be in Adelaide in a week or so and will check with some v.
experienced anthros there as to whether they know of any (other)
instances.

I recall some (attenborough?) footage of birds at fires - though pretty
sure it didn't have any fire-carrying footage...

And while Australia is widely regarded as a continent shaped by fire
(and maybe Stephen Pyne may have something further re birds?) it seems a
giant leap of faith to posit that firebirds may have contributed to that
process - though it would be great if they did!!

On the road so very short on i/net time.

Best to you all and keep this thread flowing!

Bob
--- In Ethnoornithology@..., Mark Bonta <markabonta@...>
wrote:
>
> Thanks!!
>
> As I said before, if this kind of behavior were -- I hate to say
> 'confirmed' because we get into some sticky language -- but at least
> acceptable to Western fire ecology , I think we could have a pretty
> important paper in the works. I suspect that without independent
> confirmation of the behavior (a video would be ideal) many geographers
and environmental scientists would not take it seriously. Bob -- do you
think  it's possible to get hard and fast documentation of this
practice?
>
> I am relatively well aware of the literature on fire, at least from
the 90s, and I don't recall this behavior ever being mentioned. I have a
very good sense of what would tend to become very important to
geographers, which is why I've latched onto this. I think millennia of
kites setting purposeful fires would force us to rethink our assumptions
that pyrophytic landscapes over such great expanses are solely due to
10K or more years of human effort.
>
> I'm still trying to track down the reference to the NT Aboriginal
group
> that related the movement of the firehawk's legs while it was flying
> over burns, to the way that people make fires.
>
>  Dr. Mark Bonta
> Associate Professor of Geography
> Division of Social Sciences
> Kethley 226, PO Box 3264
> Delta State University
> Cleveland, MS 38733
> Tel. 662.846.4096 [w]; 843.6205 [h]; Fax: 662.846.4099
> Alternate email: mbonta@...
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Heather Teague yodaseablue@...
> To: Ethnoornithology@...; mtw30@...
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 11:52:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ethnoornithology] Re: Firebirds!?
>
>
>
>
>
> A Remarkable Case of Tool-Using in a Bird
> Author(s): Ashley Montagu
> Source: American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 72, No. 3 (Jun.,
1970), p. 610
> Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American
Anthropological Association
> Stable URL: http://www.jstor. org/stable/ 673006
> Accessed: 11/05/2009 12:34
>
>
> A REMARKABLE CASE OF TOOL-USING IN A BIRD
> ASHLEY MONTAGU
> Princeton, N.J.
>
> Accepted for publication 18 February 1970.
>
> To the growing list of tool-users among animals other than man should
be added the Northern Territory kitehawk or, as he is called among the
aborigines of that part of Australia, the firehawk. In the fascinating
book about his life, I, The Aboriginal (Ade- laide: Griffin, 1962),
written down by Douglas Lockwood, Waipuldanya, an abori- ginal of the
Alawa tribe at Roper River, says, "I have seen a hawk pick up a smoul-
dering stick in its claws and drop it in a fresh patch of dry grass half
a mile away, then wait with its mates for the mad exodus of scorched and
frightened rodents and rep- tiles. When that area was burnt out the pro-
cess was repeated elsewhere. We call these fires Jaluran" (p. 93). Is
this, possibly, the first recorded case of the use of fire by a nonhuman
animal?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mark Bonta markabonta@yahoo. com>
> To: Ethnoornithology@ yahoogroups. co.uk; mtw30@... uk
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 11:06:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ethnoornithology] Re: Firebirds!?
>
>
> Does anyone have quick access to this article? It apparently
references Milvus:
>
> http://www.jstor. org/pss/673006
>
>
>  * A Remarkable Case of Tool-Using in a Bird
>  * Ashley Montagu
>  * American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 72, No. 3  (Jun., 1970),
p. 610
> (article consists of 1 page)
>  * Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American
Anthropological Association
>  * Stable URL: http://www.jstor. org/stable/ 673006I'm still trying to
track down the earlier reference I had seen -- I believe it involved the
term "fire hawk"
>
>
>  Dr. Mark Bonta
> Associate Professor of Geography
> Division of Social Sciences
> Kethley 226, PO Box 3264
> Delta State University
> Cleveland, MS 38733
> Tel. 662.846.4096 [w]; 843.6205 [h]; Fax: 662.846.4099
> Alternate email: mbonta@deltastate. edu
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: martin_t_walsh mtw30@... uk>
> To: Ethnoornithology@ yahoogroups. co.uk
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 3:28:07 AM
> Subject: [Ethnoornithology] Re: Firebirds!?
>
>
> Mark, I can't see any statement like that in Birds of my Kalam
Country. Here's the paragraph about Black Kites (square brackets in the
original; the /n/ of anmt is a velar nasal that I can't reproduce here):
>
>     "Anmt or kob-bg-ket [the Black Kite, Milvus migrans] is another
bird which hunts in the open country and the gardens, taking rats and
snakes and worms from the ground. It is dark brown, partly black on the
under-surface of its wings. I can't translate anmt, but kob-bg-ket means
'it haunts the burnt-off grassland'. When large areas of grass are
burnt, this bird sometimes appears and catches small animals as they try
to escape from the fire, and picks up dead creatures that the fire has
left." (Majnep and Bulmer 1977: 144)
>
> That's all there is in the text about the behaviour of Black Kites
(and nothing like it in descriptions of other raptors, not that I can
see with a quick scan).
>
> Martin
>
>
> --- In Ethnoornithology@ yahoogroups. co.uk, Mark Bonta markabonta@
..> wrote:
> >
> > I saw a ref online to Birds of My Kalem Country, where the kite was
linked to fire not only because it swooped around active burns, but also
the way it moved its legs/talons appeared like the movements humans
start to make fire. Can you check that (I don't have access to the
book)?
> >
> > mb
> >
> >  Dr. Mark Bonta
> > Associate Professor of Geography
> > Division of Social Sciences
> > Kethley 226, PO Box 3264
> > Delta State University
> > Cleveland, MS 38733
> > Tel. 662.846.4096 [w]; 843.6205 [h]; Fax: 662.846.4099
> > Alternate email: mbonta@
> >
> >
>