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----- Original Message -----

From: Martyn Robinson

To: HurdyGurdyForum@...

Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 11:08 PM

Subject: [HurdyGurdyForum] Skewball

 

Hello all!,

Because it is Melbourne Cup day today in Australia does anyone have the words, music and chords to the traditional song ‘Bold Skewball’?

Although I can’t read music I can play the tune by ear, play the chords on other instruments, sing along and give the music to other people who CAN read music and potentially provide entertainment for this Melbourne Cup or future ones.

Thanks in advance.

S

M

---

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The Australian Museum.

The views in this email are those of the user and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Australian Museum. The information contained in this email message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential and is for the intended recipient only. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this email or any attached files is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender. The Australian Museum does not guarantee the accuracy of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. As Internet communications are not secure, the Australian Museum does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files.

Please consider the environment before printing this email.

It's another Claudine!!!! I have the sister gurdy to this and it says in it made
by Claudine Boireaud. About the same time too. Very similar head and purling.
The back is different though.
Not a lot of money then....so far

--- In HurdyGurdyForum@..., MARK VEEVERS <markveevers@...> wrote:
>
> In case anyone is interested there is a lute back for sale on the French Ebay
> site.
> Link here. 
>
http://cgi.ebay.fr/Vielle-a-roue-/300485783825?pt=FR_YO_OInstrumentsMusique_Cord\
es&hash=item45f6593111
>
>
> Cheers Mark.
>

Moderator,

Please remove post #7171.

The Wren Hurdy-Gurdy has been sold for $2,600.00.

Thanks,

Jon




--- In HurdyGurdyForum@..., "Jon" <steelj57@...> wrote:
>
> Posting again because emails are not getting through to my Yahoo email. 
Moderator, please remove the original post.
>
> Send email replies to:
> jonlee@...
>
> Cutting down from three to two instruments.
>
> Neil Brook G/C Wren Hurdy-Gurdy for sale. Built in early 2009.
>
> Excellent, like-new condition. Custom case included, which is small enough to
> be an airline carry-on.
>
> See it and all the details here:
> http://dragonflybridge.com/cgi-bin/SlideShow/Wren/SlideShowDir.pl
>
> and here:
> http://dragonflybridge.com/cgi-bin/SlideShow/Wren/SlideShowDir.pl?A=GO
>
> and Neil playing this specific instrument here:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdPY8_B8_3I
>
> and my video of it here:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLE8cad_LfE
>
> Neil can also give you the details on this specific instrument that I
purchased
> from him in October 2009.
>
> See it and play it in the Bay Area of California (San Francisco, Oakland,
Marin
> County, SF Peninsula, etc.). Prefer local pickup, but will personally deliver
> within 50 miles, or will ship (buyer pays shipping and insurance).
>
> $2,400.00 USD. Cash or PayPal (add 3%).
>
> Send email replies to:
> jonlee@...
>
> Jon Steel
> Oakland, California
>

Article in The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/nov/07/sam-leith-shocking-news-oxford

"Musicologists in Oxford have made exact replicas of instruments
featured in the The Garden of Earthly Delights by Hieronymus Bosch.
And, apparently, they sound 'horrible' ...

... Of the Boschian hurdy-gurdy, Lamb says: "The design seems to be
fundamentally flawed. When you turn the handle, you get a half-hearted
buzzing noise, but you can't get any melodies out of it. It would be
difficult to hold because its strings are in the wrong position – and
there is even a superfluous string.""

I think it has been discussed here before, but of course there is no
reason for an artist to depict a subject as blueprint perfect; it is all
interpretative.  With an artist like Bosch, the odds on fidelity are
even further reduced, so the overall result does not surprise me.  What
may be more interesting is the detail where the team working on that
asked themselves why something seemed to be the way it was rather than
why the realisation they had just crafted was not of itself musical!

Mark.

On 08/11/10 03:03, Michael Boughey wrote:
> Article in The Guardian:
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/nov/07/sam-leith-shocking-news-oxford
>
> "Musicologists in Oxford have made exact replicas of instruments
> featured in the The Garden of Earthly Delights by Hieronymus Bosch.
> And, apparently, they sound 'horrible' ...
>
>

I wonder how much if this is to do with 'flaws' in the painting and how much
of it is to do with Mr Lamb not being a hurdy-gurdy luthier.  Does he know,
for example, how much string pressure is needed on the wheel, or how much
rosin is needed to make it sound correctly? It's not obvious to me, looking
at the painting, to see what he means when he says that it's difficult to
hold because the strings are in the wrong position.

Mike



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Boughey [mailto:michael.mxb@...]
Sent: 08 November 2010 03:04
To: HurdyGurdyForum@...
Subject: [HurdyGurdyForum] Hurdy Gurdy from The Garden of Earthly
Delights (Hieronymous Bosch)


Article in The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/nov/07/sam-leith-shocking-news-oxford

"Musicologists in Oxford have made exact replicas of instruments
featured in the The Garden of Earthly Delights by Hieronymus Bosch.
And, apparently, they sound 'horrible' ...

... Of the Boschian hurdy-gurdy, Lamb says: "The design seems to be
fundamentally flawed. When you turn the handle, you get a half-hearted
buzzing noise, but you can't get any melodies out of it. It would be
difficult to hold because its strings are in the wrong position – and
there is even a superfluous string.""


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



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Probably a little of both.
Remember, it a PAINTING.
I daresay that aliens in the future may wonder how humans existed when
viewing a Picasso.
Enough said - it's called "artistic licence".

Colin Hill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eaton Mike" <mike.eaton@...>
To: <HurdyGurdyForum@...>
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 2:49 PM
Subject: RE: [HurdyGurdyForum] Hurdy Gurdy from The Garden of Earthly
Delights (Hieronymous Bosch)


I wonder how much if this is to do with 'flaws' in the painting and how much
of it is to do with Mr Lamb not being a hurdy-gurdy luthier.  Does he know,
for example, how much string pressure is needed on the wheel, or how much
rosin is needed to make it sound correctly? It's not obvious to me, looking
at the painting, to see what he means when he says that it's difficult to
hold because the strings are in the wrong position.

Mike



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Boughey [mailto:michael.mxb@...]
Sent: 08 November 2010 03:04
To: HurdyGurdyForum@...
Subject: [HurdyGurdyForum] Hurdy Gurdy from The Garden of Earthly
Delights (Hieronymous Bosch)


Article in The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/nov/07/sam-leith-shocking-news-oxford

"Musicologists in Oxford have made exact replicas of instruments
featured in the The Garden of Earthly Delights by Hieronymus Bosch.
And, apparently, they sound 'horrible' ...

... Of the Boschian hurdy-gurdy, Lamb says: "The design seems to be
fundamentally flawed. When you turn the handle, you get a half-hearted
buzzing noise, but you can't get any melodies out of it. It would be
difficult to hold because its strings are in the wrong position – and
there is even a superfluous string.""


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communication
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is
addressed. It contains information which is private and may be proprietary
or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email
in error, please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it
from your system.

Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the businesses
of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of this company.

Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to
this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liability for any
damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and would advise that you
carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

I'm not surprised it doesn't work.....

If you think about it, artists aren't always the best at giving an accurate
rendition of an instrument. If you have a look at pictures that contain electric
guitars, for example, they're not always "technically" correct, and in some
cases are probably unplayable!

It's more likely to be the case that Bosch would clearly have been aware of the
general look of gurdies, though not the precise technical aspects or correctness
of the instrument - He was an artist (however deranged/moralistc - take your
pick!), and not an instrument maker.

I wonder if the bagpipes in the picture would work?


--- In HurdyGurdyForum@..., Michael Boughey <michael.mxb@...>
wrote:
>
> Article in The Guardian:
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/nov/07/sam-leith-shocking-news-oxford
>
> "Musicologists in Oxford have made exact replicas of instruments
> featured in the The Garden of Earthly Delights by Hieronymus Bosch.
> And, apparently, they sound 'horrible' ...
>
> ... Of the Boschian hurdy-gurdy, Lamb says: "The design seems to be
> fundamentally flawed. When you turn the handle, you get a half-hearted
> buzzing noise, but you can't get any melodies out of it. It would be
> difficult to hold because its strings are in the wrong position – and
> there is even a superfluous string.""
>

well, no one is asking if that flute coming out of that demon's arse would work properly, so I think the whole discussion is silly to begin with.

Totally agree with the need for common sense when interpreting artists'
renditions of instruments - there are similar problems (if not worse) when
interpreting historic dress in paintings as artists have a tendency to 'improve'
the proportions of human bodies. A more interesting question is why the gurdy
was included on the 'hell' side of the panel - because of the noise it makes? or
because it was an expensive instrument used for secular celebrations and
therefore an example of 'vanity'? Of course there is a harp next to it so
perhaps the choice of instruments doesn't mean anything in particular.

On a related topic, I noticed when looking at the carved panels of the cathedral
minstrels' gallery in Florence that some of the lutes are shown with a second
set of pegs at the side of the neck. Does this imply drones or symps? There's
also a good rendition of small zithers or psalteries as I think they were
called. I've put photos in the ceramic musicians file.

Best

Clare

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 07:13:04PM +1000, Fiona Marsden wrote:
> Rofl so true Robert.  When I manage to get my gurdy in tune and playable I
> might have something to post.

When I'm demonstrating my gurdy to a crowd, I often throw in the joke
"how long does it take to tune a hurdy-gurdy? no-one knows, it's never
been achieved" which usually gets a laugh.

Cheers,
Dave

I totally agree with you Geoff. The standard of craftsmanship before power tools
is way above the general standard these days . We've sacrificed those skills on
the altar of " efficiency" . I reckon using hand tools only would more than
double the cost of a hurdy-gurdy and the result would not be as good.

I must take issue with all the comments about how hard it is to tune the
hurdy-gurdy. Admittedly compared with mainstream instruments it is more involved
but if the player is prepared to take the time to learn what is going on as
regards tuning, it becomes quite straightforward.

The trick is to analyse the effect on tuning of cotton thickness and position.
There are no malevolent forces living in the instrument and endless tangent
tweaking is only needed because the cotton has changed.

  Tone is another area where " problems" occur but as long as the wheel rim is
dead flat and the string geometry is correct all will be well.
Players who ignore these disciplines are destined to pay the price in
frustration and worse yet continue to play their poorly set up instrument in
public which reinforces the  disdain many people have for our instrument.

Finally, what possesses people to broadcast poorly set up instruments on youtube
?

Rant over, back to the workshop :-)

Neil

--- In HurdyGurdyForum@..., Geoff Turner <gyldageoff@...> wrote:
>
>
> Robert,
>
> While I agree withn most of your comments, I think you have to be very careful
when assuming that because modern tools/electronics did not exist then the
resulting instruments/playing would be poor. In my experience, sometimes the
opposite is true, in that the absence of precision tools from a not-yet-invented
point of view forces practices and methods far in advance of us modern
'sophisticated' people, who have now come to rely on time-saving devices.
>
> One only has to look at some of the wonderful craftsmanship in places like the
V & A museum to appreciate what level of expertise can be produced without them.
>
> Geoff
>
>
> To: HurdyGurdyForum@...
> From: robertloechler@...
> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 01:03:06 -0800
> Subject: Re: [HurdyGurdyForum] RE: Hurdy gurdy (and others) in pictures
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> dear Clare,etc...After playing the hurdy gurdy for a year and a half,it is
easy to understand why the artist placed it in hell.This has to be by far the
hardest instrument to get in tune of any of the ten different instruments that I
have played over a forty year span.So,given that there were no power tools for
precision building of gurdies or electronic tuners for precision tuning in the
1500s,I shudder to even think what a hurdy gurdy may have sounded like in the
hands of an amateur musician.Plus,I have found  setting the chien blending level
to be just as critical as tuning.So,if one rolls together a bunch of out of tune
strings together with an obnoxious trompette,then there sure was/is just a bunch
of noise.In fact,now that I can play well in tune both of my gurdies,I find
certain of the gurdy samples on youtube.com to be somewhat grating on the ears
so far as intonation (similar to the same issues with bagpipes).Certainly,the
hurdy gurdy looks fascinating in a painting,a parlor or museum,but what does it
actually sound like?Ever notice how little chatter there is on this website
about the actual music that people are playing?...Robert
>
> --- On Mon, 11/8/10, clarerosephd <clare@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: clarerosephd <clare@...>
> Subject: [HurdyGurdyForum] RE: Hurdy gurdy (and others) in pictures
> To: HurdyGurdyForum@...
> Date: Monday, November 8, 2010, 2:58 PM
>
>
> Totally agree with the need for common sense when interpreting artists'
renditions of instruments - there are similar problems (if not worse) when
interpreting historic dress in paintings as artists have a tendency to 'improve'
the proportions of human bodies. A more interesting question is why the gurdy
was included on the 'hell' side of the panel - because of the noise it makes? or
because it was an expensive instrument used for secular celebrations and
therefore an example of 'vanity'? Of course there is a harp next to it so
perhaps the choice of instruments doesn't mean anything in particular.
>
> On a related topic, I noticed when looking at the carved panels of the
cathedral minstrels' gallery in Florence that some of the lutes are shown with a
second set of pegs at the side of the neck. Does this imply drones or symps?
There's also a good rendition of small zithers or psalteries as I think they
were called. I've put photos in the ceramic musicians file.
>
> Best
>
> Clare
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

> Finally, what possesses people to broadcast poorly set up instruments on
youtube ?

I've heard some tremendously bad playing online from folks who bill themselves
as semi-professional. I can't imagine that these folks think they sound bad and
are doing themselves a disservice...

I think in many cases it's that the people who do that really don't know that
they have poorly set up instruments. They *think* that they sound good. I heard
a nameless video recently in which the chanterelles were out of tune with each
other about 10 Htz and apparently the tangents were no better aligned than the
tuning. Add to that insufficient rosin leading to some really sloppy dog work…
And yet the creator was quite proud of his effort and thought it sounded great,
while I wanted to pull something over my head and hide.

I was talking with Robert Green once and he told me that when giving lessons
he'll generally spend some time getting an instrument set up properly but by the
next day it sounds like it did before he did anything because the player is
"fixing" everything he did to get back to the sound that he or she likes.

In addition many players don't understand the complex relationship between
pressure, rosin, cotton, and tuning, and you get many players whose setup
compensates for a problem in one area by over- or under-doing it in another area
and who therefore think they've got the best possible sound from their
instruments. I have to confess that I've been guilty of this in the past and
even today, when the weather changes, I've been reduced sometimes to scratching
my head and trying to figure out just which of the  factors it is this time...

On the other hand, I did post a video once trying to *diagnose* a set-up problem
(i.e., I knew it was bad) that caused a strange shudder in a string. Somehow
that became the most popular video I posted on YouTube. I should take it down,
but figured others might find it instructional. (Oddly enough, that problem was
solved by popping out the nut and replacing it in exactly the same position it
was in before, proving that sometimes there is no *apparent* logic to HG
problems...)

-Arle

> At least one thing we can rule out here: that blind people got nice sounds
> out of their gurdies!
>
> I just cannot imagine it with all the maintenaince this instrument needs.
> The little pieces falling, the moisty keys getting stuck...  and, most of
> all, their wheels being quite "medievally challenged" by dirt :)
> cheers,
> Sergio.

I would actually think the opposite to be true. I'd imagine that in many cases
the blind folks got better sound because they would be more sensitive to the
sound that many others, especially if their livelihood depended on it. After
all, a blind beggar couldn't drive people away. Some might give him money out of
pity, but he'd do better if he was a good musician.

Yes, there is a lot of maintenance, but there's not much that a blind person
wouldn't be able to handle. Because they would be forced to diagnose problems by
the sound, they would get very attuned to that as a diagnostic method. By
contrast, I tend to *look* to see what the problem is, but often that is the
wrong approach and it I trusted my ears I might do better.

In addition, I'd imagine that you'd get the range with blind musicians:
everything from amazingly bad to very good. After all, plenty of sighted
"musicians" sure can't do anything right even today. So I wouldn't rule out the
blind musicians being able to do well.

-Arle