> ...if you haven't seen these yet, well worth a look:
>
> here:
> http://www.blackscorpionminiatures.com/workbench.asp

Sculpted by Adam Clarke. They are a little tall (30mm)
but are slim so will fit into your 28mm posse,
particualrly as a heroic figure.

> Click on the thumbnails for a better view...

They are rather nice... I own the Cogburn figure.

> Nik

& Guy

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Greets all:

Wondering if any of you out there have ideas where I could find map
graphics for the Old West. I'm drawing up territories for my campaign
and need somewhat decent looking maps of the New Mexico and Arizona
Territories...

Thanks

Here's a page:

http://www.pastpresent.com/anmaofcacone.html

Clink on the map you want to view, clink on the link to enlarge it...you may be
able to use the large (relatively) final picture.

Here's some more:

http://www.sharlot.org/archives/maps/azlist.html
https://www.carto.com/cgi-bin/web_store/web_store.cgi?page=us_west.html&catagory\
=yes&cart_id=3626_9726

A great (large) one of New Mexico Territory (1895 though):
http://www.livgenmi.com/1895/NM/

Actually this page has a few good ones for NMT (including one that shows all the
forts in the territory):

http://www.nmmagazine.com/cgi-bin/links.cgi?SearchCategory=Maps%2FHistorical

Hope that helps.

-Mark H.



-----Original Message-----
From: LOTOldWest@...
[mailto:LOTOldWest@...]On Behalf Of Gil
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 4:52 PM
To: LOTOldWest@...
Subject: [LOTOldWest] Old West Maps


Greets all:

Wondering if any of you out there have ideas where I could find map
graphics for the Old West. I'm drawing up territories for my campaign
and need somewhat decent looking maps of the New Mexico and Arizona
Territories...

Thanks






Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Gil

Mickey is right that how you set up the campaign depends on what you
want out of it. And the people in the campaign will want different
things out of it, hence, for example, the difference in how often
they will each play campaign games (as you pointed out).

So one of the first considerations in setting up a campaign is
flexibility, but that itself is, as you said, one of the causes of
the balance problem. A second consideration is simplicity.

We have tried a couple techniques to make games more even and
considered a few more. We have done the 2 onto 1 thing a few times
with mixed results. We are currently using a double whammy technique
based on the fact that strength often lies in numbers as well as
experience. So first for every 25 infamy difference (or part
thereof) after the first 25 the larger posse must rest a man (but
they don't have to lose anymore once they are the same size as their
opponent). Then the infamies are recalculated and the re-roll
handicap from the rules is used as well. As an alternative we looked
at basing something on average infamy per fighter, but that got too
complicated.

The fundamental problem is that there isn't a ready measure of a
posse's effectiveness. Infamy is a game mechanic to determine a
winner, it is not a way of showing strength. For this reason it's
not a very good basis for handicapping. This is because it either
doesn't take into account or doesn't accurately reflect lots of
things that affect balance, for example: the types and numbers of
weapons a posse has, the relative value of extra fighters, the
esoteric way in which experience translates into effectiveness via
advances (i.e. some advances are much, much better than others), etc.

Therefore, infamy isn't a good basis for handicapping and the only
other readily available measure is numbers of fighters and that's
worse. And I would guess that trying to define what makes a super-
posse would be equally problematic, since everything is relative.

So, where do we go from here?

And this is where I start "thinking out loud". If flexibility is
part of the problem, why not try use flexibility as part of the
solution. Generally players do not want to play at much of a
disadvantage and if they find that this is happening too often they
will vote with their feet. So why not allow for a range of balancing
options and let players decide which to use. This should produce a
bit of horse-trading until both sides feel that they are not too
disadvantaged. If the result of the game is a bit one sided then in
the next game the loser will probably suggest a different balancing
option. And if either side thinks that an option is unfair, they can
always so no to a game. But I must point out we haven't been brave
enough to try such a radical solution ourselves.

Another possible plank in an overall strategy might be a change of
mind-set. Don't expect it to be balanced. Just try to play as many
games at an advantage as you do at a disadvantage. After all, the
imbalance doesn't just apply to posse size and strength. Have you
ever played the Open Range as the attacker against a much stronger
posse? It's not pretty. I've had to do it several times and once I
had 5 fighters KILLED in one game. But it made me determined to win
it at least once, and eventually I did.

One final point, just in case anyone thinks that all this is a
criticism of the game or it's creators, it isn't. This is a great
game and I love it. But game design is largely about meeting
conflicting goals and must include a degree of compromise. If the
game did all of the things that all of us want it would be so
complicated that none of us would want to play it! So thanks and
well done to Mark and designers of the games that LotOW is based on.

Lazy B Outfit

BTW is Gil in honour of Gil Favor, the trail boss in Rawhide?

--- In LOTOldWest@..., "Gil" <bard_dfader@y...> wrote:
>
> LazyB:
>
> Thanks for the insight. I've been lurking on this thread because
I'm
> organizing a Legends campaign for the Summer. My group plays a all
of
> the GW "Fanatic" games and Balance has been the issue in all of
them,
> for the reasons you mentioned. I find that half the group will play
> weekly or more and the other half biweekly or monthly, quickly
> creating a disparity. The rules give a re-roll handicap to a team
with
> lower infamy but in my experience I find that doesn't help against
a
> "Super-Posse".
>
> One idea I have is to declare any Posse that exceeds a certain
infamy
> becomes a "Super-Posse" and that point can only play other
> Super-Posses. The player would be compelled to create a
> sub-posse/expansion of the Super-Posse or creates a different new
posse.
>
> What, in your experience, would define a "Super-Posse"?
>
> In terms of balance, what would be the widest, balanced gap in
posse
> Infamy? 50? 100?
>
> What about placing a cap on how many dollars' worth of the posse's
> resources a player can deploy per game, say $250? More infamous
posses
> would have access to tougher heroes and equipment but the posses
would
> be equal in terms of cost, giving the weaker posse a chance.
>
> I'm still in the planning stages so any suggestions would be most
> helpful...
>
> Viva Mexico!
>

Regarding Black Scorpion and their western line of figures ...
(_http://www.blackscorpionminiatures.com/workbench.asp_
(http://www.blackscorpionminiatures.com/workbench.asp) )

I see two groups of 5 figures beautifully painted on the workbench, but no
Cogburn figure.  Where is that?

Also, I currently ONLY have Artizan figures.  I realize the Black  Scorpion
figs are a tad larger than the typical 28mm, but Artizans are also  a little
taller and chunkier than the typical 28mm.  Would the Scorpions  mix, or stand
out.  Since I consider EVERY figure from Artizan to be  "heroic" quality, these
figures would need to mix in and be either the leaders  or the followers
equally well.

A photo of an Artizan and a Scorpion fig side by side would be fantastic,
but since the figs shown are on the "workbench" I'm assuming they are not really
  available yet?

Thanks.
Steve




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One thing I have been trying a total cost concept, similar to
necromunda.

Adding the cost of equipment to the infamy is a really good indicator
of not only how much exp they have, but how much goodies they have
picked up. This is managed with a spreadsheet that does the math for
all of the posses.

Example; My cavalry has an infamy of 215. But they are all on horses,
have lots of weapons and equipment, and have many heroes. They Cost of
this posse is 585. So adding the infamy and cost for a total cost of
800, this (i am hoping) gives a better indication of the posse's
capabilities.

Hello,

I uploaded an after action report with a lot of photos
of a game with my newly painted Arnica Montana
buildings.

http://lotow.free.fr/article.php3?id_article=83

Cheers,

Olivier






___________________________________________________________________________
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services préférés : vérifiez vos nouveaux mails, lancez vos recherches et suivez
l'actualité en temps réel.
Rendez-vous sur http://fr.yahoo.com/set

I picked up both packs of Black Scorpion figures at Salute on
Saturday. First impressions are good, in line with the photos on the
website.

I've uploaded a picture of a couple each of Artizan and Black
Scorpion figures into the 'miscellaneous' album in the photos
section of the group. They aren't that much different in size -
given that the Artizan ones are on 2p coins with a bit of clay and
sand, and the BS ones are just on their slottabases.

Hope this helps...

Gary

--- In LOTOldWest@..., seattlered@a... wrote:
>
> Regarding Black Scorpion and their western line of figures ...
> (_http://www.blackscorpionminiatures.com/workbench.asp_
> (http://www.blackscorpionminiatures.com/workbench.asp) )
>
> I see two groups of 5 figures beautifully painted on the
workbench, but no
> Cogburn figure.  Where is that?
>
> Also, I currently ONLY have Artizan figures.  I realize the Black
Scorpion
> figs are a tad larger than the typical 28mm, but Artizans are
also  a little
> taller and chunkier than the typical 28mm.  Would the Scorpions
mix, or stand
> out.  Since I consider EVERY figure from Artizan to be  "heroic"
quality, these
> figures would need to mix in and be either the leaders  or the
followers
> equally well.
>
> A photo of an Artizan and a Scorpion fig side by side would be
fantastic,
> but since the figs shown are on the "workbench" I'm assuming they
are not really
>  available yet?
>
> Thanks.
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

A good friend of mine, who is a big fan of the Old West, was
initially very excited about playing Legends of the Old West. But
after a few battles he dropped out in frustration over the campaign
system for the game. He really likes the rules for fighting the
battles. But he found that the campaign system allowed the posses
into evolve into a collection of fantasy characters, rather than
staying true to the nature of flesh and blood human beings.
He likes the idea of a campaign where the successful posses can grow
with new members, and add new and better equipment. But when he saw
the large numbers of impossibly strong and powerful heroes dominating
the battles, that's when called it quits.

And he has a point, in my opinion. I have a couple of veteran posses
that are filled with guys that have "2" or "3" Wound and "5" or "6"
Grit characteristics each. Obviously, these elevated stats make then
very difficult to take out of action. Also, these posses of super
humans become totally unfair to play with except against other
similar super posses.

I was wondering what your gaming groups are doing about posses that
become too strong. Is anyone modifying the campaign rules to slow or
prevent the characters from becoming super humans?  Has anyone
thought about introducing rules that would force the retirement of
super strong posse members?

Just ordered both packs online yesterday!

Not sure how I will do this, but I will try to mount them in a similar
way to my wargames foundry wild west figures (on washers). This could
involve drilling holes in their feet and pinning them to the washers.

Then again, I have had success in the past by simply sanding figures'
slottabases down on a sanding belt. Quick and easy! Potential for
ghastly accidents as well! Just don't let go of your figure or you
won't find it!

Wargames foundry figs have a lot of height difference in their range,
but I just figure that some folks are big 'uns and some folks are
little 'uns!

I run several posses and play the one that suits the rating of which
ever group of players I'm with!

For example, my mate Pete and I regularly shoot the crap out of each
other with outlaws and cowboys respectively. These two posses (who
must HATE each other) only ever fight each other and so are quite
hard as regards skills and stats. Recently we brought in two more
players and started new posses to accomodate them. This evened the
playing field for everyone. Pete and I still keep our old posses for
one on one shoot outs!

Reminds me of a story re. Necromunda. An old friend of mine (who at
the time was in his late teens) wanted his gang of Orlocks to kick
everybody elses' arses in a campaign we were running. So, in
private, he introduced his new girlfriend to the game and got her to
roll up a gang. He then played several games against her with his
high rated gang, hammering her into the dirt and upping his gangers'
experience and skills at very little risk. They eventually broke up,
though I fancy there were other issues apart from skirmish wargames.

Good luck and bad luck aside, I think that LOTWest is about western
superheroes! Whose the fastest gun, etc. That Black Bart killed
three of my cowpokes and this time all of us are gonna have ta nail
him! Think of the Man With No Name (which is actually Manco)! I bet
he's a three wound, S3+, Grit 6 S.O.B.!




--- In LOTOldWest@..., "Mickey Juif" <mickeyjuif@s...>
wrote:
>
> A good friend of mine, who is a big fan of the Old West, was
> initially very excited about playing Legends of the Old West. But
> after a few battles he dropped out in frustration over the
campaign
> system for the game. He really likes the rules for fighting the
> battles. But he found that the campaign system allowed the posses
> into evolve into a collection of fantasy characters, rather than
> staying true to the nature of flesh and blood human beings.
> He likes the idea of a campaign where the successful posses can
grow
> with new members, and add new and better equipment. But when he
saw
> the large numbers of impossibly strong and powerful heroes
dominating
> the battles, that's when called it quits.
>
> And he has a point, in my opinion. I have a couple of veteran
posses
> that are filled with guys that have "2" or "3" Wound and "5"
or "6"
> Grit characteristics each. Obviously, these elevated stats make
then
> very difficult to take out of action. Also, these posses of super
> humans become totally unfair to play with except against other
> similar super posses.
>
> I was wondering what your gaming groups are doing about posses
that
> become too strong. Is anyone modifying the campaign rules to slow
or
> prevent the characters from becoming super humans?  Has anyone
> thought about introducing rules that would force the retirement of
> super strong posse members?
>

> I run several posses and play the one that suits the
> rating of which
> ever group of players I'm with!

This is certainly the key, start a novice player
playing against a novice gang.

I stil recall with horror my redemptionist gang which
was taken apart by a rival gang of 5 men all armed to
the teeth. The heavy was a missile laucher with krack
missiles. 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound... <sigh!>

How to put someone off a game in 10 seconds...

The most important aspect I feel is the spirit of the
game - not playing to win at all costs but playing to
have a fun game, win lose or draw.

Guy

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Details on the Warhammer Historical web site....

The book is released next week.


Kind regards

Rob

Rob Broom
Warhammer Historical Manager
robb@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for your input. But the two replies missed what I was going for. I fully
understand that you don't want to pit a super posse against a starting posse.
What I was hoping to get was some house rules suggestions on how to prevent
posses from getting too many "superheroes" in the first place.

   For instance, here are some ideas I came up with:

   Only your leader can ever become a "superhero"...he gets his advances per the
rules.

   Other heroes would roll on the hero advance chart, but at the same pace (and
limit) as henchmen (exactly like hired guns). In other words, heroes (other than
your leader) would be limited to 4 advances...and these would come at a slower
rate.

   Henchmen can never promote to heroes....a roll of "6" would allow the player
to pick the characteristic he wants to advance (within the normal limit, of
course).

   Since with these house rules a posse would never have more than 3 or 4 heroes,
you would need to compensate them with more income. Perhaps you could roll 3
dice per standing hero, instead of 2.

Guy Bowers <gecoren@...> wrote:
   > I run several posses and play the one that suits the
> rating of which
> ever group of players I'm with!

This is certainly the key, start a novice player
playing against a novice gang.

I stil recall with horror my redemptionist gang which
was taken apart by a rival gang of 5 men all armed to
the teeth. The heavy was a missile laucher with krack
missiles. 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound... <sigh!>

How to put someone off a game in 10 seconds...

The most important aspect I feel is the spirit of the
game - not playing to win at all costs but playing to
have a fun game, win lose or draw.

Guy

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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---------------------------------
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    To visit your group on the web, go to:
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LOTOldWest-unsubscribe@...

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Mickey,

One house rule that I am very much in favor of is lowering the maximum stats. 
Grit in particular can be problematic if a hero maxes it out (and then straps a
boilerplate around his chest on top of that :P).  At least the to wound chart
has taken the stats into account (notice that Mark's diverged it from the
Warhammer/Mordheim chart).  But I still say that one way to help keep posses
playable is to reduce the maxes.  Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to really
put that theory into practice as or campaign disintegrated before any posses got
out of hand (my wife had a baby which sidelined me, and the guy I tried to hand
off to never carried it).

I also like the idea of including cost of equipment to the infamy rating to get
a better idea of how tough posses really are.  It doesn't reel out of control
posses in, but it does give a better indicator I think.

Another thing I was considering if posses got out of control was to orchestrate
scenarios for them where they had to fight multiple lower-rating posses.  And of
course they'd always be the ones having to make a jailbreak, etc. (takes at
least one of their good fighters out of the posse until they rescue him at
least).

I also imposed a maximum game limit on our campaign...something that I thought
most players would be able to handle (max 2 games/monthly campaign day and 2
days between campaign days).  If a player wanted to play more games, I let him
play multiple posses.

Just some ideas.

-Mark H.



-----Original Message-----
From: LOTOldWest@...
[mailto:LOTOldWest@...]On Behalf Of Mickey Juif
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:40 AM
To: LOTOldWest@...
Subject: Re: [LOTOldWest] Re: Fantasy Posses?


Thanks for your input. But the two replies missed what I was going for. I fully
understand that you don't want to pit a super posse against a starting posse.
What I was hoping to get was some house rules suggestions on how to prevent
posses from getting too many "superheroes" in the first place.

   For instance, here are some ideas I came up with:

   Only your leader can ever become a "superhero"...he gets his advances per the
rules.

   Other heroes would roll on the hero advance chart, but at the same pace (and
limit) as henchmen (exactly like hired guns). In other words, heroes (other than
your leader) would be limited to 4 advances...and these would come at a slower
rate.

   Henchmen can never promote to heroes....a roll of "6" would allow the player
to pick the characteristic he wants to advance (within the normal limit, of
course).

   Since with these house rules a posse would never have more than 3 or 4 heroes,
you would need to compensate them with more income. Perhaps you could roll 3
dice per standing hero, instead of 2.

Guy Bowers <gecoren@...> wrote:
   > I run several posses and play the one that suits the
> rating of which
> ever group of players I'm with!

This is certainly the key, start a novice player
playing against a novice gang.

I stil recall with horror my redemptionist gang which
was taken apart by a rival gang of 5 men all armed to
the teeth. The heavy was a missile laucher with krack
missiles. 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound... <sigh!>

How to put someone off a game in 10 seconds...

The most important aspect I feel is the spirit of the
game - not playing to win at all costs but playing to
have a fun game, win lose or draw.

Guy

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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links

We're nearing the end of a six month LOTOW campaign here, and have
also run into all of the problems that have been outlined in the
last two threads about game balance. Like some of the other players
here have testified, only the top three or so in our campaign (out
of 20 or so total players) retained any real interest in continuing
to play on a regular basis, and all three of the "top players" are
power gamers and are interested in using every hook in the rules to
win pretty much at any cost.

Naturally this drove most of the rest of the players out of the
running, who played a game or two and then didn't show up any more.
A couple of players (myself included) chose to continue playing with
posses based more on fun and fluff than on boilerplate and sniper
scopes on every repeating rifle, a chinese railroad worker, a
reporter, and trademark item in every gang. Yawn. But still it took
some perseverance to continue, because it was hard not to feel taken
advantage of when you lose pretty much all of the battles you fight,
and with each loss you reinforce the players who use the "winning
combination" by providing them with more loot and even more
experience. Now you have an avalanche. The way the book sets up
campaigns there's no reward for playing the genre, which last time I
saw a western (last night, and the night before that. . .) was all
about meeting in the middle of a dusty street to shoot it out with
brass cajones.

So- what did I learn? If I were to run the campaign next time (and I
hope to sometime in the future) I would make a couple simple
changes.

First, no pre-measuring of distances and ranges in the game. This
makes it way too scientific, and rewards the type of play and
equipment that splits hairs and stops spontaneity outright. It also
slows play down to the point that a game can take all afternoon,
which again lends more weight to the "I must do everything to win"
attitude because it increases the investment people make into each
game if it takes most of your Saturday to get through one.

Second, I think Infamy should be totaled for each character in a
posse, not for the whole gang. The infamy total for each character
should be a dollar amount reflecting:
1- The original cost of the character,
2- An additional $8 (or so, this number would need some playtesting)
for each henchman who has "done good" and become a hero,
3- The dollar cost of every weapon and item of wargear the character
carries, and,
4- The cost of any hired guns AND the dollar cost of all their
equipment, whether purchased or inherent (that's right),
5- A dollar for ever point of experience the character or hired gun
has.
Now for every battle the total infamy for the game would be set by
the player with the lowest infamy score, and the player with the
higher score would have to go through his gang to select a number of
his characters to fight the battle who have a total infamy score
equal to or lesser than the less experienced posse. But not one
point above. And- I would still give the less experienced
player/posse all the advantages that the book allows (choosing the
scenario/attacker/defender etc.).

Thirdly, and this is minor, I would do away with the bonus wounds
that are automatically heaped upon a character in close combat who
gets surrounded, and find another way to balance this. It puts an
inordinate weight on swarming into hand-to-hand and I think works
against the game.

Fourth, insist that any SPECIALIZED wargear be modeled on the
figures if it's going to be played. I know, the book says it should
be, but I also know that most referees aren't going to hold up
a "just for fun game" for something so trivial. But my argument is
it's not just for fun when the posse you're facing has boilerplate,
buffalo rifles, and telescopic sights on most of his models not to
be fun but to stomp you, and discourage less serious players from
continuing the campaign (which is ultimately the goal of a campaign,
participation). To be clear, I'm not talking about standard gear
(knives and pistols, etc.) but just any gear that comes with a
rarity factor.

And, finally fifth I would start a Warhammer 40k league at the same
time to run on the same days and encourage everyone who wanted to
have a power gaming experience to bring their Space Marines and
Necrons and whatever and play on those tables. Actually I'm just
kidding, running two campaigns at once would be way too much. But I
would make it very clear that a LOTOW campaign is a quasi-
historical/quasi-hollywood game in the old west genre, and less
about beardy combinations of armor and wargear.

It's a great game, and ideally suited for a casual campaign. These
comments aren't meant as criticism of the well written and concise
rulebook, but rather to address some flaws in the play-balance of
continuing tournaments.

Peter

I, too, would be interested in ideas.  At our LGS, we started out with
a bang having 12 or 15 players in a campaign, but after a dozen games
or so, there were two or three "super posses", then a cluster of two or
three more that were 30-40 points lower, then the balance of posses WAY
behind the pack.  Our little campaign died a painful horrible death due
to the inequalties of posse ratings....that and the perceived
inequalities (some said impossible to win) of several of the
scenarios.  We were never able to recover enough enthusiasm to even try
and come up with some adjustments on our own.  now, most players have
sold off their figures and books and moved on.  A shame too as the
rules of play are really easy to learn and a lot of fun.  But,
apparently not enough without the propects of a good, "even chance"
campaign system.  Our campaign was completely overshadowed by a very
robust Blood Bowl league (routinely 32 players with additional players
not able to get in ove rthe la
st 4 or 5 seasons) and the seemingly more even campaign system Blood
Bowl brings to the table.

I like your ideas, Mickey.  I also like the idea that was posted
earlier about including cost of equipment, etc in the posse
rating....ala Necromunda.


Merle
KC area

----- Original Message -----
From: Mickey Juif <mickeyjuif@...>
Date: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:40 am
Subject: Re: [LOTOldWest] Re: Fantasy Posses?
To: LOTOldWest@...

<span><p><span><p>


Thanks for your input. But the two replies missed what I was going for.
I fully understand that you don't want to pit a super posse against a
starting posse. What I was hoping to get was some house rules
suggestions on how to prevent posses from getting too many
"superheroes" in the first place. <BR>
   <BR>
  For instance, here are some ideas I came up with:<BR>
   <BR>
  Only your leader can ever become a "superhero"...he
gets his advances per the rules.<BR>
   <BR>
  Other heroes would roll on the hero advance chart, but at the
same pace (and limit) as henchmen (exactly like hired guns). In other
words, heroes (other than your leader) would be limited to 4
advances...and these would come at a slower rate.<BR>
   <BR>
  Henchmen can never promote to heroes....a roll of "6"
would allow the player to pick the characteristic he wants to advance
(within the normal limit, of course).<BR>
   <BR>
  Since with these house rules a posse would never have more than
3 or 4 heroes, you would need to compensate them with more income.
Perhaps you could roll 3 dice per standing hero, instead of 2. <BR>
<BR>
Guy Bowers <gecoren@...> wrote:<BR>
  > I run several posses and play the one that suits the<BR>
> rating of which <BR>
> ever group of players I'm with!<BR>
<BR>
This is certainly the key, start a novice player<BR>
playing against a novice gang.<BR>
<BR>
I stil recall with horror my redemptionist gang which<BR>
was taken apart by a rival gang of 5 men all armed to<BR>
the teeth. The heavy was a missile laucher with krack<BR>
missiles. 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound... <sigh!> <BR>
<BR>
How to put someone off a game in 10 seconds...<BR>
<BR>
The most important aspect I feel is the spirit of the<BR>
game - not playing to win at all costs but playing to<BR>
have a fun game, win lose or draw.<BR>
<BR>
Guy<BR>
<BR>
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</span></span>

Thanks for sharing your experience. While my group doesn't have the "power
gamer" issue, we do have the ridiculously strong posse phenomenon. We like to
play multi-player games, so one way we can try to balance the battles is to put
the stronger posses on the side with fewer players (if we have an odd number).
Another way to try to balance a battle is to give the guy with the weaker posse
some hired guns to augment his force (these disappear after the battle).

   But what you described is an extension of what I'm talking about. These "super
posses" have lots of heroes, and consequently bring in a flood of income. This
enables the player to "find" and buy lots of exotic and expensive equipment. The
game no longer has that "Old West" feeling when you have boatloads of posse
members with that kind of equipment.

   The suggested house rules I made on my earlier note would remedy that problem
as well. With henchmen not being able to promote, no posse would ever have more
than 3 or 4 heroes to generate income. And since henchmen "die" easier than
heroes, a lot of that money will go to replace casualties. Bottom line, only a
player that has had a string of successes will be able to scrape together enough
extra income to buy one the more exotic items.

major_slovak <petercarlson@...> wrote:
   We're nearing the end of a six month LOTOW campaign here, and have
also run into all of the problems that have been outlined in the
last two threads about game balance. Like some of the other players
here have testified, only the top three or so in our campaign (out
of 20 or so total players) retained any real interest in continuing
to play on a regular basis, and all three of the "top players" are
power gamers and are interested in using every hook in the rules to
win pretty much at any cost.

Naturally this drove most of the rest of the players out of the
running, who played a game or two and then didn't show up any more.
A couple of players (myself included) chose to continue playing with
posses based more on fun and fluff than on boilerplate and sniper
scopes on every repeating rifle, a chinese railroad worker, a
reporter, and trademark item in every gang. Yawn. But still it took
some perseverance to continue, because it was hard not to feel taken
advantage of when you lose pretty much all of the battles you fight,
and with each loss you reinforce the players who use the "winning
combination" by providing them with more loot and even more
experience. Now you have an avalanche. The way the book sets up
campaigns there's no reward for playing the genre, which last time I
saw a western (last night, and the night before that. . .) was all
about meeting in the middle of a dusty street to shoot it out with
brass cajones.

So- what did I learn? If I were to run the campaign next time (and I
hope to sometime in the future) I would make a couple simple
changes.

First, no pre-measuring of distances and ranges in the game. This
makes it way too scientific, and rewards the type of play and
equipment that splits hairs and stops spontaneity outright. It also
slows play down to the point that a game can take all afternoon,
which again lends more weight to the "I must do everything to win"
attitude because it increases the investment people make into each
game if it takes most of your Saturday to get through one.

Second, I think Infamy should be totaled for each character in a
posse, not for the whole gang. The infamy total for each character
should be a dollar amount reflecting:
1- The original cost of the character,
2- An additional $8 (or so, this number would need some playtesting)
for each henchman who has "done good" and become a hero,
3- The dollar cost of every weapon and item of wargear the character
carries, and,
4- The cost of any hired guns AND the dollar cost of all their
equipment, whether purchased or inherent (that's right),
5- A dollar for ever point of experience the character or hired gun
has.
Now for every battle the total infamy for the game would be set by
the player with the lowest infamy score, and the player with the
higher score would have to go through his gang to select a number of
his characters to fight the battle who have a total infamy score
equal to or lesser than the less experienced posse. But not one
point above. And- I would still give the less experienced
player/posse all the advantages that the book allows (choosing the
scenario/attacker/defender etc.).

Thirdly, and this is minor, I would do away with the bonus wounds
that are automatically heaped upon a character in close combat who
gets surrounded, and find another way to balance this. It puts an
inordinate weight on swarming into hand-to-hand and I think works
against the game.

Fourth, insist that any SPECIALIZED wargear be modeled on the
figures if it's going to be played. I know, the book says it should
be, but I also know that most referees aren't going to hold up
a "just for fun game" for something so trivial. But my argument is
it's not just for fun when the posse you're facing has boilerplate,
buffalo rifles, and telescopic sights on most of his models not to
be fun but to stomp you, and discourage less serious players from
continuing the campaign (which is ultimately the goal of a campaign,
participation). To be clear, I'm not talking about standard gear
(knives and pistols, etc.) but just any gear that comes with a
rarity factor.

And, finally fifth I would start a Warhammer 40k league at the same
time to run on the same days and encourage everyone who wanted to
have a power gaming experience to bring their Space Marines and
Necrons and whatever and play on those tables. Actually I'm just
kidding, running two campaigns at once would be way too much. But I
would make it very clear that a LOTOW campaign is a quasi-
historical/quasi-hollywood game in the old west genre, and less
about beardy combinations of armor and wargear.

It's a great game, and ideally suited for a casual campaign. These
comments aren't meant as criticism of the well written and concise
rulebook, but rather to address some flaws in the play-balance of
continuing tournaments.

Peter










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Mickey

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mark,

   I very much agree with you about the maximum stats. One simple way to address
this is to extend the henchmen rule of
no-more-than-one-bump-up-in-any-characteristic to heroes. (you might want to
make an exception for the leader). This seems reasonable too from the standpoint
of realism...a preson's genetics will determine many of his base-line
characteristics (Strength, Grit, and Wounds). He can only advance a certain
amount through "toughening up". Don Knotts could never hope to become Shaquille
O'Neil, no matter how hard he worked out.

"Havener, Mark" <mark.havener@...> wrote:
   Hey Mickey,

One house rule that I am very much in favor of is lowering the maximum stats. 
Grit in particular can be problematic if a hero maxes it out (and then straps a
boilerplate around his chest on top of that :P).  At least the to wound chart
has taken the stats into account (notice that Mark's diverged it from the
Warhammer/Mordheim chart).  But I still say that one way to help keep posses
playable is to reduce the maxes.  Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to really
put that theory into practice as or campaign disintegrated before any posses got
out of hand (my wife had a baby which sidelined me, and the guy I tried to hand
off to never carried it).

I also like the idea of including cost of equipment to the infamy rating to get
a better idea of how tough posses really are.  It doesn't reel out of control
posses in, but it does give a better indicator I think.

Another thing I was considering if posses got out of control was to orchestrate
scenarios for them where they had to fight multiple lower-rating posses.  And of
course they'd always be the ones having to make a jailbreak, etc. (takes at
least one of their good fighters out of the posse until they rescue him at
least).

I also imposed a maximum game limit on our campaign...something that I thought
most players would be able to handle (max 2 games/monthly campaign day and 2
days between campaign days).  If a player wanted to play more games, I let him
play multiple posses.

Just some ideas.

-Mark H.



-----Original Message-----
From: LOTOldWest@...
[mailto:LOTOldWest@...]On Behalf Of Mickey Juif
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:40 AM
To: LOTOldWest@...
Subject: Re: [LOTOldWest] Re: Fantasy Posses?


Thanks for your input. But the two replies missed what I was going for. I fully
understand that you don't want to pit a super posse against a starting posse.
What I was hoping to get was some house rules suggestions on how to prevent
posses from getting too many "superheroes" in the first place.

   For instance, here are some ideas I came up with:

   Only your leader can ever become a "superhero"...he gets his advances per the
rules.

   Other heroes would roll on the hero advance chart, but at the same pace (and
limit) as henchmen (exactly like hired guns). In other words, heroes (other than
your leader) would be limited to 4 advances...and these would come at a slower
rate.

   Henchmen can never promote to heroes....a roll of "6" would allow the player
to pick the characteristic he wants to advance (within the normal limit, of
course).

   Since with these house rules a posse would never have more than 3 or 4 heroes,
you would need to compensate them with more income. Perhaps you could roll 3
dice per standing hero, instead of 2.

Guy Bowers <gecoren@...> wrote:
   > I run several posses and play the one that suits the
> rating of which
> ever group of players I'm with!

This is certainly the key, start a novice player
playing against a novice gang.

I stil recall with horror my redemptionist gang which
was taken apart by a rival gang of 5 men all armed to
the teeth. The heavy was a missile laucher with krack
missiles. 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound... <sigh!>

How to put someone off a game in 10 seconds...

The most important aspect I feel is the spirit of the
game - not playing to win at all costs but playing to
have a fun game, win lose or draw.

Guy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


---------------------------------
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    To visit your group on the web, go to:
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LOTOldWest-unsubscribe@...

    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links








---------------------------------
   Yahoo! Groups Links

    To visit your group on the web, go to:
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LOTOldWest-unsubscribe@...

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Mickey

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gary . . . Thanks for the photo comparing Artizan to the new Black Scorpion
figures.  That was perfect.  I can tell that the BS figs are just ever  so
slightly taller, but some of that is the basing.  They are certainly  close
enough to be compatible.  Again, many thanks.

Now the decision is, do I wait for BS to get a distributor over here in the
states, or do I bite the bullet and order now from the UK.

Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is from the rules sheet for the campaign that I tried to run:

"7) Maximum Advancements:  For this campaign, the maximum a hero may advance in
each characteristic is 1 over the starting level.  Pluck is the exception, and
maxes out at a value of 7 for any character.  This rule is meant to allow heroes
to advance and have character without becoming unmanageable (or virtually immune
to regular bullets!).   This takes precedence over any ruling in the Q&A or
official FAQ!"

So...great minds I guess... ;)


-----Original Message-----
From: LOTOldWest@...
[mailto:LOTOldWest@...]On Behalf Of Mickey Juif
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 1:26 PM
To: LOTOldWest@...
Subject: RE: [LOTOldWest] Re: Fantasy Posses?


Hi Mark,

   I very much agree with you about the maximum stats. One simple way to address
this is to extend the henchmen rule of
no-more-than-one-bump-up-in-any-characteristic to heroes. (you might want to
make an exception for the leader). This seems reasonable too from the standpoint
of realism...a preson's genetics will determine many of his base-line
characteristics (Strength, Grit, and Wounds). He can only advance a certain
amount through "toughening up". Don Knotts could never hope to become Shaquille
O'Neil, no matter how hard he worked out.

"Havener, Mark" <mark.havener@...> wrote:
   Hey Mickey,

One house rule that I am very much in favor of is lowering the maximum stats. 
Grit in particular can be problematic if a hero maxes it out (and then straps a
boilerplate around his chest on top of that :P).  At least the to wound chart
has taken the stats into account (notice that Mark's diverged it from the
Warhammer/Mordheim chart).  But I still say that one way to help keep posses
playable is to reduce the maxes.  Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to really
put that theory into practice as or campaign disintegrated before any posses got
out of hand (my wife had a baby which sidelined me, and the guy I tried to hand
off to never carried it).

I also like the idea of including cost of equipment to the infamy rating to get
a better idea of how tough posses really are.  It doesn't reel out of control
posses in, but it does give a better indicator I think.

Another thing I was considering if posses got out of control was to orchestrate
scenarios for them where they had to fight multiple lower-rating posses.  And of
course they'd always be the ones having to make a jailbreak, etc. (takes at
least one of their good fighters out of the posse until they rescue him at
least).

I also imposed a maximum game limit on our campaign...something that I thought
most players would be able to handle (max 2 games/monthly campaign day and 2
days between campaign days).  If a player wanted to play more games, I let him
play multiple posses.

Just some ideas.

-Mark H.



-----Original Message-----
From: LOTOldWest@...
[mailto:LOTOldWest@...]On Behalf Of Mickey Juif
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:40 AM
To: LOTOldWest@...
Subject: Re: [LOTOldWest] Re: Fantasy Posses?


Thanks for your input. But the two replies missed what I was going for. I fully
understand that you don't want to pit a super posse against a starting posse.
What I was hoping to get was some house rules suggestions on how to prevent
posses from getting too many "superheroes" in the first place.

   For instance, here are some ideas I came up with:

   Only your leader can ever become a "superhero"...he gets his advances per the
rules.

   Other heroes would roll on the hero advance chart, but at the same pace (and
limit) as henchmen (exactly like hired guns). In other words, heroes (other than
your leader) would be limited to 4 advances...and these would come at a slower
rate.

   Henchmen can never promote to heroes....a roll of "6" would allow the player
to pick the characteristic he wants to advance (within the normal limit, of
course).

   Since with these house rules a posse would never have more than 3 or 4 heroes,
you would need to compensate them with more income. Perhaps you could roll 3
dice per standing hero, instead of 2.

Guy Bowers <gecoren@...> wrote:
   > I run several posses and play the one that suits the
> rating of which
> ever group of players I'm with!

This is certainly the key, start a novice player
playing against a novice gang.

I stil recall with horror my redemptionist gang which
was taken apart by a rival gang of 5 men all armed to
the teeth. The heavy was a missile laucher with krack
missiles. 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound... <sigh!>

How to put someone off a game in 10 seconds...

The most important aspect I feel is the spirit of the
game - not playing to win at all costs but playing to
have a fun game, win lose or draw.

Guy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


---------------------------------
   Yahoo! Groups Links

    To visit your group on the web, go to:
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LOTOldWest-unsubscribe@...

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links








---------------------------------
   Yahoo! Groups Links

    To visit your group on the web, go to:
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    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
LOTOldWest-unsubscribe@...

    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




Mickey

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links

Yes, I guess we do. It's too bad you didn't get very far with the campaign. It
would be nice to know if this fixed the problem.



"Havener, Mark" <mark.havener@...> wrote:
   This is from the rules sheet for the campaign that I tried to run:

"7)      Maximum Advancements:  For this campaign, the maximum a hero may
advance in each characteristic is 1 over the starting level.  Pluck is the
exception, and maxes out at a value of 7 for any character.  This rule is meant
to allow heroes to advance and have character without becoming unmanageable (or
virtually immune to regular bullets!).   This takes precedence over any ruling
in the Q&A or official FAQ!"

So...great minds I guess... ;)


-----Original Message-----
From: LOTOldWest@...
[mailto:LOTOldWest@...]On Behalf Of Mickey Juif
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 1:26 PM
To: LOTOldWest@...
Subject: RE: [LOTOldWest] Re: Fantasy Posses?


Hi Mark,

   I very much agree with you about the maximum stats. One simple way to address
this is to extend the henchmen rule of
no-more-than-one-bump-up-in-any-characteristic to heroes. (you might want to
make an exception for the leader). This seems reasonable too from the standpoint
of realism...a preson's genetics will determine many of his base-line
characteristics (Strength, Grit, and Wounds). He can only advance a certain
amount through "toughening up". Don Knotts could never hope to become Shaquille
O'Neil, no matter how hard he worked out.

"Havener, Mark" <mark.havener@...> wrote:
   Hey Mickey,

One house rule that I am very much in favor of is lowering the maximum stats. 
Grit in particular can be problematic if a hero maxes it out (and then straps a
boilerplate around his chest on top of that :P).  At least the to wound chart
has taken the stats into account (notice that Mark's diverged it from the
Warhammer/Mordheim chart).  But I still say that one way to help keep posses
playable is to reduce the maxes.  Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to really
put that theory into practice as or campaign disintegrated before any posses got
out of hand (my wife had a baby which sidelined me, and the guy I tried to hand
off to never carried it).

I also like the idea of including cost of equipment to the infamy rating to get
a better idea of how tough posses really are.  It doesn't reel out of control
posses in, but it does give a better indicator I think.

Another thing I was considering if posses got out of control was to orchestrate
scenarios for them where they had to fight multiple lower-rating posses.  And of
course they'd always be the ones having to make a jailbreak, etc. (takes at
least one of their good fighters out of the posse until they rescue him at
least).

I also imposed a maximum game limit on our campaign...something that I thought
most players would be able to handle (max 2 games/monthly campaign day and 2
days between campaign days).  If a player wanted to play more games, I let him
play multiple posses.

Just some ideas.

-Mark H.



-----Original Message-----
From: LOTOldWest@...
[mailto:LOTOldWest@...]On Behalf Of Mickey Juif
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:40 AM
To: LOTOldWest@...
Subject: Re: [LOTOldWest] Re: Fantasy Posses?


Thanks for your input. But the two replies missed what I was going for. I fully
understand that you don't want to pit a super posse against a starting posse.
What I was hoping to get was some house rules suggestions on how to prevent
posses from getting too many "superheroes" in the first place.

   For instance, here are some ideas I came up with:

   Only your leader can ever become a "superhero"...he gets his advances per the
rules.

   Other heroes would roll on the hero advance chart, but at the same pace (and
limit) as henchmen (exactly like hired guns). In other words, heroes (other than
your leader) would be limited to 4 advances...and these would come at a slower
rate.

   Henchmen can never promote to heroes....a roll of "6" would allow the player
to pick the characteristic he wants to advance (within the normal limit, of
course).

   Since with these house rules a posse would never have more than 3 or 4 heroes,
you would need to compensate them with more income. Perhaps you could roll 3
dice per standing hero, instead of 2.

Guy Bowers <gecoren@...> wrote:
   > I run several posses and play the one that suits the
> rating of which
> ever group of players I'm with!

This is certainly the key, start a novice player
playing against a novice gang.

I stil recall with horror my redemptionist gang which
was taken apart by a rival gang of 5 men all armed to
the teeth. The heavy was a missile laucher with krack
missiles. 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound... <sigh!>

How to put someone off a game in 10 seconds...

The most important aspect I feel is the spirit of the
game - not playing to win at all costs but playing to
have a fun game, win lose or draw.

Guy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


---------------------------------
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LOTOldWest-unsubscribe@...

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links








---------------------------------
   Yahoo! Groups Links

    To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTOldWest/

    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
LOTOldWest-unsubscribe@...

    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




Mickey

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links








---------------------------------
   Yahoo! Groups Links

    To visit your group on the web, go to:
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LOTOldWest-unsubscribe@...

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Mickey

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One change we came up with was to only allow one "Kid done good" per
posse, per campaign. Our last campaign had one guy with 6-7 heroes and
used to earn so much money each game it was OTT.

Cheers
Kieran

Dose any one know where to get the flat bases depicted in the main
book, or how to make them easily

They are 25mm wide washers and are available at any hardware store (or
should be)! I put sticky tape over the holes and use araldite to stick
the figures in place. The horse bases are washers about double the
size.

--- In LOTOldWest@..., "Joseph Silveira"
<gobohobojoe@y...> wrote:
>
> Dose any one know where to get the flat bases depicted in the main
> book, or how to make them easily
>

If your in the UK its on BBC2 sunday (tomorrow) at 11.20pm
A masterpiece

Pete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There's a company I stumbled upon some time ago that makes round  bases.
They are called Game Crafters.  There link is here:

_http://gamecraftersltd.com/_wsn/page4.html_
(http://gamecraftersltd.com/_wsn/page4.html)

Unlike the fender washers you can buy at various hardware stores, his round
bases do not have the hole in the center.  They also come in lots of
different sizes.  I haven't purchased any from him yet (already had a  supply of
fender washers from Home Depot), but I hear he ships fast (our on  TMP).  Prices
are reasonable too - although for those in the UK this  probably isn't an
option.

Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you live in the uk, then a coin of the realm works just great.



--- In LOTOldWest@..., "Joseph Silveira"
<gobohobojoe@y...> wrote:
>
> Dose any one know where to get the flat bases depicted in the main
> book, or how to make them easily
>

For us yanks, what "coin of the realm" do you use? For foot figures? For
mounted?

bryan glasspool <bryanglasspool@...> wrote:  If you live in the uk, then
a coin of the realm works just great.



--- In LOTOldWest@..., "Joseph Silveira"
<gobohobojoe@y...> wrote:
>
> Dose any one know where to get the flat bases depicted in the main
> book, or how to make them easily
>






---------------------------------
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Mickey

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Of course it would be strictly illegal to use coin of the realm, but
just supposing someone did, a 1 pence piece is 20mm across and a 2
pence piece is 25mm across (approximately 1 inch).

Lazy B Outfit



--- In LOTOldWest@..., Mickey Juif <mickeyjuif@s...>
wrote:
>
> For us yanks, what "coin of the realm" do you use? For foot
figures? For mounted?
>
> bryan glasspool <bryanglasspool@y...> wrote:  If you live in the
uk, then a coin of the realm works just great.
>
>
>
> --- In LOTOldWest@..., "Joseph Silveira"
> <gobohobojoe@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Dose any one know where to get the flat bases depicted in the
main
> > book, or how to make them easily
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
>
>
> Mickey
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>