Miguel Moreno-Azanza has passed me some very good papers related to
the evolution of vertebrate reproduction!

Anybody interested in the paper send me an email!

Live birth in the Devonian period
John A. Long1,2,3, Kate Trinajstic4, Gavin C. Young2 & Tim Senden5
The extinct placoderm fishes were the dominant group of vertebrates
throughout the Middle Palaeozoic era1, yet controversy
about their relationships within the gnathostomes (jawed vertebrates)
is partly due to different interpretations of their reproductive
biology2–5. Here we document the oldest record of a
live-bearing vertebrate in a new ptyctodontid placoderm,
Materpiscis attenboroughi gen. et sp. nov., from the Late
Devonian Gogo Formation of Australia (approximately 380 million
years ago)6. The new specimen, remarkably preserved in three
dimensions, contains a single, intra-uterine embryo connected by
a permineralized umbilical cord. An amorphous crystalline mass
near the umbilical cord possibly represents the recrystallized yolk
sac.Another ptyctodont fromtheGogo Formation, Austroptyctodus
gardineri 7, also shows three small embryos inside it in the same
position. Ptyctodontids have already provided the oldest definite
evidence for vertebrate copulation8, and the newspecimens confirm
that some placoderms had a remarkably advanced reproductive
biology, comparable to that of some modern sharks and rays. The
new discovery points to internal fertilization and viviparity in
vertebrates as originating earliest within placoderms.

Happy Christmas and good 2007 for you and all collegues of the group from Germany!

Hans-Volker Karl

Have a Happy Christmas and good 2007!

Xavier Panades

Dear Colleagues,

I recently produced another paper on moa eggshell:
Gill, B. J. (2007). "Eggshell characteristics of moa eggs (Aves: Dinornithiformes)." Journal of the Royal Society of New Zealand 37(4): 139-150.

If anyone wishes to have the pdf then please send an e-mail to my personal address (below).

Yours sincerely,

BRIAN GILL
--------------------------------
B.J. Gill, Curator of Land Vertebrates, Auckland Museum, Private Bag 92018, Auckland, New Zealand.
Deliveries: Truck Dock, Auckland Museum, The Domain, Auckland.
E-mail:  bgill@aucklandmuseum.com    Telephone:  (64 9)306-7063    Fax:  (64 9)379-9956

---

This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal

---

Dear collegue -

I would greatly appreciate receiving a reprint or PDF of your paper and some other related papers on that topic.

Thank you very much for your time and assistance!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Hans-Volker Karl
Geoscience Centre of the University of Göttingen, Department Geobiology, Goldschmidtstrasse 3, D-37077 Göttingen, hkarl@... or private for snailmail: Jenaer Strasse 32, D-99099 Erfurt, hvkarl@...

Dear Colleagues,

I recently produced another paper on moa eggshell:
Gill, B. J. (2007). "Eggshell characteristics of moa eggs (Aves: Dinornithiformes)." Journal of the Royal Society of New Zealand 37(4): 139-150.

If anyone wishes to have the pdf then please send an e-mail to my personal address (below).

Yours sincerely,

BRIAN GILL
--------------------------------
B.J. Gill, Curator of Land Vertebrates, Auckland Museum, Private Bag 92018, Auckland, New Zealand.
Deliveries: Truck Dock, Auckland Museum, The Domain, Auckland.
E-mail:  bgill@...    Telephone:  (64 9)306-7063    Fax:  (64 9)379-9956

I have a PDF copy of the article below

Buchholz, H. 1986: Die Hohle eines Spechtvogels aus dem. Eozan von
Arizona, USA (Aves, Piciformes). Verhandlungen. der
naturwissenschaftlichen Vereinigung Verh. naturwiss. Ver. Hamburg
(nF), 28: 5-25

Thanks for the data, can you send me a pdf copy?
Cheers



Eduardo Corona-M.
Centro INAH Morelos &
Seminario Relaciones Hombre-Fauna
(http://www.geocities.com/shofaun)
Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia



-----Original Message-----
From: cogombra <cogombra@...>
To: Palaeoology@...
Sent: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 7:04 am
Subject: [Palaeoology] BIRD EGGSHELL IN DOMINICAN AMBER new paperI have
a

























I have a PDF copy of the paper below:



BIRD EGGSHELL IN DOMINICAN AMBER

2007. G. Poinar, Jr., et al. Paleontology 50 (6), 1381–1383.



Abstract: Here we report an eggshell in Dominican amber, representing

the first vertebrate egg in any amber deposit. The eggshell is

compared with present-day eggs of lizards, snails and birds. Based on

the surface structure and type of shell breakage, it appears that the

most likely candidate is a bird, and with that consideration, an avian

group that produces eggs similar to the fossil in shape, size and

colouration is the Trochilidae (hummingbirds). Several possible

explanations of how the fossil could be preserved in amber are

provided. If indeed a hummingbird was involved, this discovery would

represent the first New World record of a fossil trochilid.





















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More new features than ever.  Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! -
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0050000000001

We have a fossil crocodile egg very similar to those laid by gharials embedded with  fine clayey silt . We think that the clasy indicates that  specimen was buried in a nest, dug up in an overbank’ floodplain or pond, like in modern gharials  The baby crocodile likely burst out through the area where the eggshell is missing.. Shortly after the egg was filled with the fine clay silt, and later diagenetical events compacted and squashed it laterally, exerting long cracks on the eggshell layer.


"Lala A.K. Singh" <laksingh2005@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear cogombra,

Gharial mother chooses a high slopy sand bank. She climbs up the bank and digs a pit with hind limbs; lays all the eggs in it and covers it back with sand. She uses front limb to draw in sand and hind limbs to ram the sand to fill up the nest.

The mother guards the nest from water. During the time she expects young ones to hatch, her visit to the nest becomes more frequent (Singh, L. A. K. and Bustard, H. R. (1977): Studies on the Indian Gharial Gavialis gangeticus (Gmelin) (Reptilia, Crocodilia)-V : Preliminary observations on maternal behaviour. Indian Forester, 103 (2) : 140-149).

The mother digs out the hatchlings and carries them to water like any other croc, although it is more laborious for her. Some hatchlings follow the mother upto water.

Most important:-- the empty egg shells remain scattered at the site and offer as recognition points for hatchlings. The hatchlings tend to congregate near it along with their mother.

In communal nesting sites, (Rao, R. J. and Singh, L. A. K.(1993): Communal nesting by Gharial, Gavialis gangeticus (Gmelin) (Reptilia, Crocodilia) in national chambal Sanctuary. J.Bombay nat. Hist. Soc. 90(1) : 17-22. ) the dominant mother takes over most of the hatchlings. At this time the hatchlings tend to reorganize themselves without restricting themselves to their original site of hatching.

I will try to locate the two papers cited and may be any other relevant to maternal care in gharial, and send you these.

Regards.

Lala A K Singh

cogombra <cogombra@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Dear All,

Modern gharials dug up their nests in an overbank' floodplain or
pond,the female lay their eggs in, and afterwards covers them with sand.
I cannot find a reference where it explains what happen next. I
suppose the crocodile babies harched and the broken egg is buried
afterwards with sand.

Please, I would appreciate if some body can help me here.

Dr. Lala A. K. Singh, Prakruti Bhavan, Neelakantha Nagar Bhubaneswar, Orissa, PIN: 751012, INDIA

---

Share files, take polls, and discuss your passions - all under one roof. Click here.

Dear cogombra,

Gharial mother chooses a high slopy sand bank. She climbs up the bank and digs a pit with hind limbs; lays all the eggs in it and covers it back with sand. She uses front limb to draw in sand and hind limbs to ram the sand to fill up the nest.

 

The mother guards the nest from water. During the time she expects young ones to hatch, her visit to the nest becomes more frequent (Singh, L. A. K. and Bustard, H. R. (1977): Studies on the Indian Gharial Gavialis gangeticus (Gmelin) (Reptilia, Crocodilia)-V : Preliminary observations on maternal behaviour. Indian Forester, 103 (2) : 140-149).

The mother digs out the hatchlings and carries them to water like any other croc, although it is more laborious for her. Some hatchlings follow the mother upto water.

Most important:-- the empty egg shells remain scattered at the site and offer as recognition points for hatchlings. The hatchlings tend to congregate near it along with their mother.

In communal nesting sites, (Rao, R. J. and Singh, L. A. K.(1993): Communal nesting by Gharial, Gavialis gangeticus (Gmelin) (Reptilia, Crocodilia) in national chambal Sanctuary. J.Bombay nat. Hist. Soc. 90(1) : 17-22. ) the dominant mother takes over most of the hatchlings. At this time the hatchlings tend to reorganize themselves without restricting themselves to their original site of hatching.

I will try to locate the two papers cited and may be any other relevant to maternal care in gharial, and send you these.

Regards.

Lala A K Singh

cogombra <cogombra@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Dear All,

Modern gharials dug up their nests in an overbank' floodplain or
pond,the female lay their eggs in, and afterwards covers them with sand.
I cannot find a reference where it explains what happen next. I
suppose the crocodile babies harched and the broken egg is buried
afterwards with sand.

Please, I would appreciate if some body can help me here.

Dr. Lala A. K. Singh, Prakruti Bhavan, Neelakantha Nagar Bhubaneswar, Orissa, PIN: 751012, INDIA

---

Share files, take polls, and discuss your passions - all under one roof. Click here.

Dear All,

Modern gharials dug up their nests in an overbank' floodplain or
pond,the female lay their eggs in, and afterwards covers them with sand.
I cannot find a reference where it explains what happen next. I
suppose the crocodile babies harched and the broken egg is buried
afterwards with sand.

Please, I would appreciate if some body can help me here.

Dear All,

Modern gharials dug up their nests in an overbank' floodplain or
pond,the female lay their eggs in, and afterwards covers them with sand.
I cannot find a reference where it explains what happen next. I
suppose the crocodile babies harched and the broken egg is buried
afterwards with sand.

Please, I would appreciate if some body can help me here.

I have a PDF copy of the paper below:

Evolution of host egg mimicry in a brood parasite, the great spotted
cuckoo

Authors: SOLER, JUAN J.1; AVILES, JESUS M.; SOLER, MANUEL2; MØLLER,
ANDERS P.3

Source: Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, Volume 79, Number
4, August 2003 , pp. 551-563(13)

Publisher: Blackwell Publishing

Abstract:
Brood parasitism in birds is one of the best examples of
coevolutionary interactions in vertebrates. Coevolution between hosts
and parasites is assumed to occur because the parasite imposes strong
selection pressures on its hosts, reducing their fitness and thereby
favouring counter-adaptations (e.g. egg rejection) which, in turn,
select for parasite resistance (e.g. egg mimicry). Great spotted
cuckoos (Clamator glandarius) are usually considered a brood parasite
with eggs almost perfectly mimicking those of their host, the magpie
(Pica pica). However, Cl. glandarius also exploits South African hosts
with very different eggs, both in colour and size, while the Cl.
glandarius eggs are similar to those laid in nests of European hosts.
Here, we used spectrophotometric techniques for the first time to
quantify mimicry of parasitic eggs for eight different host species.
We found: (1) non-significant differences in appearance of Cl.
glandarius eggs laid in nests of different host species, although eggs
laid in South Africa and Europe differed significantly; (2) contrary
to the general assumption that Cl. glandarius eggs better mimic those
of the main host in Europe (P. pica), Cl. glandarius eggs more closely
resembled those of the azure-winged magpie (Cyanopica cyana), a
potential host in which there is no evidence of recent parasitism; (3)
the appearance of Cl. glandarius eggs was not significantly related to
the appearance of host eggs. We discuss three possible reasons why Cl.
glandarius eggs resemble eggs of some of their hosts. We suggest that
colouration of Cl. glandarius eggs is an apomorphic trait, and that
variation between eggs laid in South African and European host nests
is due to genetic isolation among these populations and not due to
variation in colouration of host eggs. © 2003 The Linnean Society of
London, Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 2003, 79, 551-563.

I have a PDF copy of the paper below:

BIRD EGGSHELL IN DOMINICAN AMBER
2007. G. Poinar, Jr., et al. Paleontology 50 (6), 1381–1383.

Abstract: Here we report an eggshell in Dominican amber, representing
the first vertebrate egg in any amber deposit. The eggshell is
compared with present-day eggs of lizards, snails and birds. Based on
the surface structure and type of shell breakage, it appears that the
most likely candidate is a bird, and with that consideration, an avian
group that produces eggs similar to the fossil in shape, size and
colouration is the Trochilidae (hummingbirds). Several possible
explanations of how the fossil could be preserved in amber are
provided. If indeed a hummingbird was involved, this discovery would
represent the first New World record of a fossil trochilid.

average length = 8.6 cm average breadth = 6.7 cm

 

Ferguson (1985) Biology of the Reptilia Vol 14A. Ed Gans, BIllett & Maderson

 

DCD

 

----- Original Message -----

From: cogombra

To: Palaeoology@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 4:17 PM

Subject: [Palaeoology] Size of Gavialis gangeticus eggs?

I cannot find a publication on the size and shape of Gavialis
gangeticus eggs?

Any tips?

Thank you

In one of the attachments there is are photographs of gharial egg and hatchling (embryo) within it.

Lala A K Singh

Xavier Panades I Blas <cogombra@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Hi,

Do you have a clear picture (to be used in a publication) of a Gharial egg?

What are their shapes?

"Lala A.K. Singh" <laksingh2005@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear all,

Gharial egg size: 82.2 +/- 3.1mm in length; 56.5 +/- 2.2mm in breadth; 154.6 +/- 15.0gm in weight (Singh, L. A. K., 1978). 

I have three files which will be of interest, as a couple of months back I was supposed to mail information regarding Gharial growth hypotheses—‘egg space economy during embryonic development’ and ‘post-hatching growth priority’. Sorry, it was not possible earlier. The mail returned back saying problem about size/space.

Please let me know when you are ready to receive these files.

The scanned pages are from the following:

SINGH, L. A. K. (1978): Ecological Studies on the Indian Gharial Gavialis gangeticus (Gmelin) (Reptilia, Crocodilia). PhD Thesis, Utkal University, Bhubaneswar, Orissa, India. xvi+325pages, 93 figs., 72 tabs.

There are three files in PDF format:

(1)   gharial egg LAK Singh1978 – gives information on Gharial egg required by cogombra. (1.01 MB)

(2)   gharial egg-hatchling relationship LAK Singh1978 --- gives a brief intro to “egg space economy during embryonic development, (1.06 MB) and

(3)   gharial snout & growth hypotheses LAK Singh1982 --- published in British J. Herpetol in 1982. (2.05MB)

Regards

Lala A K Singh

cogombra <cogombra@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

I cannot find a publication on the size and shape of Gavialis
gangeticus eggs?

Any tips?

Thank you

Dr. Lala A. K. Singh, Prakruti Bhavan, Neelakantha Nagar Bhubaneswar, Orissa, PIN: 751012, INDIA

---

Save all your chat conversations. Find them online.

Dr. Lala A. K. Singh, Prakruti Bhavan, Neelakantha Nagar Bhubaneswar, Orissa, PIN: 751012, INDIA

---

Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now

Hi,

Do you have a clear picture (to be used in a publication) of a Gharial egg?

What are their shapes?

"Lala A.K. Singh" <laksingh2005@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear all,

Gharial egg size: 82.2 +/- 3.1mm in length; 56.5 +/- 2.2mm in breadth; 154.6 +/- 15.0gm in weight (Singh, L. A. K., 1978). 

I have three files which will be of interest, as a couple of months back I was supposed to mail information regarding Gharial growth hypotheses—‘egg space economy during embryonic development’ and ‘post-hatching growth priority’. Sorry, it was not possible earlier. The mail returned back saying problem about size/space.

Please let me know when you are ready to receive these files.

The scanned pages are from the following:

SINGH, L. A. K. (1978): Ecological Studies on the Indian Gharial Gavialis gangeticus (Gmelin) (Reptilia, Crocodilia). PhD Thesis, Utkal University, Bhubaneswar, Orissa, India. xvi+325pages, 93 figs., 72 tabs.

There are three files in PDF format:

(1)   gharial egg LAK Singh1978 – gives information on Gharial egg required by cogombra. (1.01 MB)

(2)   gharial egg-hatchling relationship LAK Singh1978 --- gives a brief intro to “egg space economy during embryonic development, (1.06 MB) and

(3)   gharial snout & growth hypotheses LAK Singh1982 --- published in British J. Herpetol in 1982. (2.05MB)

Regards

Lala A K Singh

cogombra <cogombra@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

I cannot find a publication on the size and shape of Gavialis
gangeticus eggs?

Any tips?

Thank you

Dr. Lala A. K. Singh, Prakruti Bhavan, Neelakantha Nagar Bhubaneswar, Orissa, PIN: 751012, INDIA

---

Save all your chat conversations. Find them online.

Dear all,

 

Gharial egg size: 82.2 +/- 3.1mm in length; 56.5 +/- 2.2mm in breadth; 154.6 +/- 15.0gm in weight (Singh, L. A. K., 1978). 

 

I have three files which will be of interest, as a couple of months back I was supposed to mail information regarding Gharial growth hypotheses—‘egg space economy during embryonic development’ and ‘post-hatching growth priority’. Sorry, it was not possible earlier. The mail returned back saying problem about size/space.

 

Please let me know when you are ready to receive these files.

The scanned pages are from the following:

 

SINGH, L. A. K. (1978): Ecological Studies on the Indian Gharial Gavialis gangeticus (Gmelin) (Reptilia, Crocodilia). PhD Thesis, Utkal University, Bhubaneswar, Orissa, India. xvi+325pages, 93 figs., 72 tabs.

 

There are three files in PDF format:

(1)   gharial egg LAK Singh1978 – gives information on Gharial egg required by cogombra. (1.01 MB)

(2)   gharial egg-hatchling relationship LAK Singh1978 --- gives a brief intro to “egg space economy during embryonic development, (1.06 MB) and

(3)   gharial snout & growth hypotheses LAK Singh1982 --- published in British J. Herpetol in 1982. (2.05MB)

 

Regards

Lala A K Singh

cogombra <cogombra@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

I cannot find a publication on the size and shape of Gavialis
gangeticus eggs?

Any tips?

Thank you

Dr. Lala A. K. Singh, Prakruti Bhavan, Neelakantha Nagar Bhubaneswar, Orissa, PIN: 751012, INDIA

---

Save all your chat conversations. Find them online.

I cannot find a publication on the size and shape of Gavialis
gangeticus eggs?

Any tips?

Thank you

----- Original Message -----

From: cogombra

To: Palaeoology@...

Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 4:17 PM

Subject: [Palaeoology] Size of Gavialis gangeticus eggs?

I cannot find a publication on the size and shape of Gavialis
gangeticus eggs?

Any tips?

Thank you

I cannot find a publication on the size and shape of  Gavialis
gangeticus eggs?

Any tips?

Thank you

Hello everybody,

Finally, wikipedia has accepted Palaeooölogy and its definition.
You can check it out in the address below.
Please, I would appreciate if you could send any suggestions to
improve the core of the definition.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaeoo%C3%B6logy

Respectfully,

Xavier Panades

Finally, somebody with name in science uncovers the true about what
science has become...


NEWS RELEASE
The Center for North American Herpetology
Lawrence, Kansas
http://www.cnah.org
12 September 2007

THE MISMEASUREMENT OF SCIENCE
Current Biology 17(5): 583-585

Peter A. Lawrence
Department of Zoology
University of Cambridge
Downing Street
Cambridge CB2 3EJ, UK

MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology
Hills Road
Cambridge CB2 0QH, UK

From the article . . .

The journals are evaluated according to impact factors, and scientists
and departments
assessed according to the impact factors of the journals they publish
in. Consequently,
over the last twenty years a scientist's primary aim has been
downgraded from doing
science to producing papers and contriving to get them into the "best"
journals they can.
Now there is a new trend: the idea is to rank scientists by the
numbers of citations their
papers receive. Consequently, I predict that citation-fishing and
citation-bartering will
become major pursuits.

*****

CNAH Note: A very compelling essay on the state of science worldwide;
directly applicable
to the discipline of herpetology. If we cannot correct this problem,
why bother to engage
in research and discovery through traditional means.

*****

A gratis PDF of this article is available from the CNAH PDF Library at

http://www.cnah.org/cnah_pdf.asp

--- cogombra <cogombra@...> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> I hope you have had a good summer.

A very interesting and busy one thank you!   And you?

> I shall introduce you to an interesting paper, we
> may discuss in the
> list, as many of you found it speculative.

Good science involves speculation.

I see Gerald has not taken on board that terrestrial
long-legged obligate bipedal types with only dynamic
stability have to be endotherms.  That's the essence
of what separates the types the Greeks termed
"crawlers" (i.e. reptiles, though they and perhaps the
principle might include insects), which enjoy static
stability since when cold they can't keep their
balance easily, from those that keep muscles and
nerves warm enough all the time to manage the minimum
level of dynamism needed.

Anyway, less bird-like theropods such as
Sinosauropteryx had thermal insulation.


He seems to be saying that the spherical shape at the
blunt end of the egg stronger than the sharper end.
However the latter is also somewhat spherical and is
more resistant to pressure on the end.

Interesting pluvianids embed one end in substrate.

The issue of ovis occupying an egg-free area in the
middle of the nest while brooding, in contrast to
troodonts, and presumably the D. antirrhopus with a
bit of eggshell stuck on the gastralia, is not
particularly conclusive evidence of troodonts being
further from moderns than ovis, since that kind of
variation in habit is common within a group.  (For
example the Egyptian plover mentioned in the paper,
half-buries its eggs in sand but is not closer to
troodonts than other moderns.)


Cordially,

John V. Jackson


>
> http://www.scielo.br/pdf/paz/v46n1/01.pdf
>
> OOLOGY AND THE EVOLUTION OF THERMOPHYSIOLOGY IN
> SAURISCHIAN DINOSAURS: HOMEOTHERM AND
> ENDOTHERM DEINONYCHOSAURIANS?
>
> GERALD GRELLET-TINNER
>
> The origin of avian endothermy is a long-held
> question the answer of
> which cannot be provided by first
> level observations. Oological and reproductive
> characters have
> collectively provided a new source of data
> useful for phylogenetic analyses and paleobiological
> inferences. In
> addition, the observations of reproductive
> and oological evolutionary trends in saurischian
> dinosaurs lead to
> the interpretation that not only, the
> thermophysiology of these dinosaurs progressively
> became more avian-
> like but after re-examination allows
> to infer that deinonychosaurians represented here by
> three
> troodontids and one dromaeosaurid might already
> have developed an avian-like endothermy, thus
> predating the rise of
> avians. These results based on
> reproductive traits are independently corroborated
> by the
> discoveries of troodontid dinosaurs 1) in high
> latitudes, 2) covered with feathers in Chinese
> Lagerstätten, and
> recently 3) fossilized in a death pose
> identical to an avian sleeping posture.
>




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/

Dear All,

I hope you have had a good summer.
I shall introduce you to an interesting paper, we may discuss in the
list, as many of you found it speculative.

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/paz/v46n1/01.pdf

OOLOGY AND THE EVOLUTION OF THERMOPHYSIOLOGY IN
SAURISCHIAN DINOSAURS: HOMEOTHERM AND
ENDOTHERM DEINONYCHOSAURIANS?

GERALD GRELLET-TINNER

The origin of avian endothermy is a long-held question the answer of
which cannot be provided by first
level observations. Oological and reproductive characters have
collectively provided a new source of data
useful for phylogenetic analyses and paleobiological inferences. In
addition, the observations of reproductive
and oological evolutionary trends in saurischian dinosaurs lead to
the interpretation that not only, the
thermophysiology of these dinosaurs progressively became more avian-
like but after re-examination allows
to infer that deinonychosaurians represented here by three
troodontids and one dromaeosaurid might already
have developed an avian-like endothermy, thus predating the rise of
avians. These results based on
reproductive traits are independently corroborated by the
discoveries of troodontid dinosaurs 1) in high
latitudes, 2) covered with feathers in Chinese Lagerstätten, and
recently 3) fossilized in a death pose
identical to an avian sleeping posture.

No!

 

DCD

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Xavier Panades I Blas

To: Palaeoology@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:25 AM

Subject: Re: [Palaeoology] Croc eggs sometimes soft

Did you get the paper?...

I have a list of his papers

Charles Deeming <charlie@deemingdc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

What is the reference for this paper?

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Xavier Panades I Blas

To: Palaeoology@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:33 PM

Subject: Re: [Palaeoology] Croc eggs sometimes soft

Hard eggshells likely evolved for different causes.
I think john is refering to that paper by our friend, where he points out that hbirds evolve hard eggshells because the lungs cannot be squash...The question here also is why birds reduce the eggshell's unit and incorporate two to three layers on the top of it?



Charles Deeming <charlie@deemingdc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

Speaking as a bird and reptile embryologist and incubationist of 25 years standing... since when has the hard shell been there to stop the lungs being squashed?

 

Charles

 

----- Original Message -----

From: John Jackson

To: Palaeoology@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 3:32 PM

Subject: Re: [Palaeoology] Croc eggs sometimes soft

--- Xavier Panades I Blas <cogombra@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think we should send an email to David and his
> team explaining it...

Good idea! I've read Lala's posting (for which,
thanks Lala) which agrees with Charles'. It seems
that the filmmakers did, as I mentioned in my last
posting on this, carefully remove all traces of the
hard shell.

The only thing that concerns me now is why bother
having hard shells at all? If hard shells are there
to prevent the lungs being squashed, as seems to be
the case with birds, why allow the hard shell to
become incompetent in the final stages of incubation?
Perhaps croc's lungs are not so vulnerable, or perhaps
not in the final stages.

Cheers,

John J

PS - I wish I was back in one of my "no TV" times.
Boring but so much more productive!

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----- Original Message -----

From: Xavier Panades I Blas

To: Palaeoology@...

Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:25 AM

Subject: Re: [Palaeoology] Croc eggs sometimes soft

Did you get the paper?...

I have a list of his papers

Charles Deeming <charlie@deemingdc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

What is the reference for this paper?

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Xavier Panades I Blas

To: Palaeoology@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:33 PM

Subject: Re: [Palaeoology] Croc eggs sometimes soft

Hard eggshells likely evolved for different causes.
I think john is refering to that paper by our friend, where he points out that hbirds evolve hard eggshells because the lungs cannot be squash...The question here also is why birds reduce the eggshell's unit and incorporate two to three layers on the top of it?



Charles Deeming <charlie@deemingdc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

Speaking as a bird and reptile embryologist and incubationist of 25 years standing... since when has the hard shell been there to stop the lungs being squashed?

 

Charles

 

----- Original Message -----

From: John Jackson

To: Palaeoology@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 3:32 PM

Subject: Re: [Palaeoology] Croc eggs sometimes soft

--- Xavier Panades I Blas <cogombra@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think we should send an email to David and his
> team explaining it...

Good idea! I've read Lala's posting (for which,
thanks Lala) which agrees with Charles'. It seems
that the filmmakers did, as I mentioned in my last
posting on this, carefully remove all traces of the
hard shell.

The only thing that concerns me now is why bother
having hard shells at all? If hard shells are there
to prevent the lungs being squashed, as seems to be
the case with birds, why allow the hard shell to
become incompetent in the final stages of incubation?
Perhaps croc's lungs are not so vulnerable, or perhaps
not in the final stages.

Cheers,

John J

PS - I wish I was back in one of my "no TV" times.
Boring but so much more productive!

__________________________________________________________Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
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What is the reference for this paper?

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Xavier Panades I Blas

To: Palaeoology@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 7:33 PM

Subject: Re: [Palaeoology] Croc eggs sometimes soft

Hard eggshells likely evolved for different causes.
I think john is refering to that paper by our friend, where he points out that hbirds evolve hard eggshells because the lungs cannot be squash...The question here also is why birds reduce the eggshell's unit and incorporate two to three layers on the top of it?



Charles Deeming <charlie@deemingdc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

Speaking as a bird and reptile embryologist and incubationist of 25 years standing... since when has the hard shell been there to stop the lungs being squashed?

 

Charles

 

----- Original Message -----

From: John Jackson

To: Palaeoology@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 3:32 PM

Subject: Re: [Palaeoology] Croc eggs sometimes soft

--- Xavier Panades I Blas <cogombra@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think we should send an email to David and his
> team explaining it...

Good idea! I've read Lala's posting (for which,
thanks Lala) which agrees with Charles'. It seems
that the filmmakers did, as I mentioned in my last
posting on this, carefully remove all traces of the
hard shell.

The only thing that concerns me now is why bother
having hard shells at all? If hard shells are there
to prevent the lungs being squashed, as seems to be
the case with birds, why allow the hard shell to
become incompetent in the final stages of incubation?
Perhaps croc's lungs are not so vulnerable, or perhaps
not in the final stages.

Cheers,

John J

PS - I wish I was back in one of my "no TV" times.
Boring but so much more productive!

__________________________________________________________Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469

Unfortunately I think Sci Am doesn't store papers that
old in its electronic archives.  I'd have to scan it
in, and could do it I think on Tuesday or Wednesday.

I can offer this now though, from...


DINOSAUR Mailing List <dinosaur@...>

  "Jerry D. Harris" <jharris@...>
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007

Another new issue of _Cretaceous Research_[...]:

Salgado, L., Coria, R.A., Magalhaes Riberio, C.M.,
Garrido, A., Rogers, R., Simón, M.E., Arcucci, A.B.,
Rogers, K.C., Carabajal, A.P., Apesteguía, S.,
Fernández, M., García, R.A., and Talevi, M. 2007.
Upper Cretaceous dinosaur nesting sites of Río Negro
(Salitral Ojo de Agua and Salinas de Trapalcó-Salitral
de Santa Rosa), northern Patagonia, Argentina.
Cretaceous Research 28(3):392-404. doi:
10.1016/j.cretres.2006.06.007.

ABSTRACT: Twenty three different sites in two areas of
Río Negro Province (Salitral Ojo de Agua and Salitral
de Santa Rosa-Salinas de Trapalcó), preserving eggs
and eggshells from the Allen Formation (Upper
Cretaceous) were studied, and five egg levels were
identified. Three different types of eggshell were
recognized. Eggs possessing thick eggshells of Type 1
are abundant in both areas, sometimes associated with
eggs having thinner shells. Eggs of eggshell Type 1
are included in the oofamily Faveoloolithidae of the
parataxonomic classification. Eggshell Type 2 is
subdivided into two groups (Types 2A and 2B), mostly
based on the mean thickness of the eggshells and other
parameters. Eggs of eggshell Type 2 are assigned to
the oofamily Megaloolithidae of the parataxonomic
classification, and ascribed to titanosaurs. A third
type of eggshell (Type 3) is only recorded at one of
the localities (Salitral Ojo de Agua, egg level 2).
This type is intimately associated with theropod
bones, and its microstructure agrees with an
assignation to the Theropoda. It is assigned to the
oofamily Elongatoolithidae.


Cordially,

John J.


--- Xavier Panades I Blas <cogombra@...>
wrote:

> Thank you very much John,
>
> Please, I would appreciate a PDF copy of  K.
> Schmidt-Nielsen, "How Birds Breath," Scientific
>  American,
>  December 1971, p. 72-79,
>
> John Jackson <strangetruther@...> wrote:
>                            Thanks for addressing
> this Xavier - I was a bit
>  delayed because I couldn't find my hard copies of
>  Duncker's works (ironic really, but I think it's
> only
>  temporary) and I wanted to mention the exact one
> where
>  he states this view.  Thanks for putting the pdf up
> of
>  the 2004 paper.  You beat me to it, but
> unfortunately
>  that's the only one I can get hold of
> electronically.
>
>  Like pretty well any theory, his view of the
>  lung-protection requirement for hard egg shells
> stands
>  or falls on its ability to explain, especially
>  compared to the explanatory power of alternate
>  theories.
>
>  There may be other theories explaining the hard
> shells
>  of various types, and I'm one of many people who
> would
>  like to see them all compared.  If anyone here in
>  addition to Lala would like to mention some of them
> or
>  say where they may be found, I'd be interested.
>
>  The bird breathing paper many people will be most
>  familiar with,
>  K. Schmidt-Nielsen, "How Birds Breath," Scientific
>  American,
>  December 1971, p. 72-79,
>  was based largely on Duncker's work and used a
> number
>  of his SEMs.
>  (It was also interesting for seeming to suggest
> (but
>  not actually doing so) on a casual reading at least
>  two concepts that that have become widely accepted
>  misapprehensions, which will join a great many
> others
>  I will be addressing in my (possibly) forthcoming
>  paper.)
>
>  H-R Duncker will be publishing again this year I
>  believe though not in English.  He may well beat
> Ernst
>  Mayr's record for endurance!
>
>  Cordially,
>
>  John J.
>
>  --- Xavier Panades I Blas <cogombra@...>
>  wrote:
>
>  > Hard eggshells likely evolved for different
> causes.
>  > I think john is refering to that paper by our
>  > friend, where he points out that hbirds evolve
> hard
>  > eggshells because the lungs cannot be
> squash...The
>  > question here also is why birds reduce the
>  > eggshell's unit and incorporate two to three
> layers
>  > on the top of it?
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > Charles Deeming
> <charlie@...>
>  > wrote:
>  > Speaking as a bird and reptile embryologist and
>  > incubationist  of 25 years standing... since when
>  > has the hard shell been there to stop the  lungs
>  > being squashed?
>  >
>  >  Charles
>  >
>  >     ----- Original Message -----
>  >    From:    John    Jackson
>  >    To: Palaeoology@...
>  >    Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 3:32  PM
>  >    Subject: Re: [Palaeoology] Croc eggs
> sometimes
>  > soft
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > --- Xavier Panades I Blas <cogombra@...>
>  > wrote:
>  >
>  > >    Hi,
>  > >
>  > > I think we should send an email to David and
> his
>  > >    team explaining it...
>  >
>  > Good idea! I've read Lala's posting (for
> which,
>  > thanks Lala) which agrees with Charles'. It seems
>  > that the    filmmakers did, as I mentioned in my
>  > last
>  > posting on this, carefully remove    all traces
> of
>  > the
>  > hard shell.
>  >
>  > The only thing that concerns me now is    why
> bother
>  > having hard shells at all? If hard shells are
> there
>  > to    prevent the lungs being squashed, as seems
> to
>  > be
>  > the case with birds, why    allow the hard shell
> to
>  > become incompetent in the final stages of
>  > incubation?
>  > Perhaps croc's lungs are not so vulnerable, or
>  > perhaps
>  > not    in the final stages.
>  >
>  > Cheers,
>  >
>  > John J
>  >
>  > PS - I wish I was    back in one of my "no TV"
>  > times.
>  > Boring but so much more    productive!
>
>
>
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>  Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from
> Yahoo! Answers users.
>
>
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>
>
>
>




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