>>Looking for a Range cooker in stainless steel <<

Did the same quite recently and found the following quite useful:

www.ogormans.co.uk
www.appliancesonline.co.uk
www.domestic-appliances.co.uk
www.freenet.ltd.uk
www.hienergyshop.co.uk

There were loads more available via the Google search site - the above are
simply the ones I "short listed".

With regard to cleaning them, I'm told that baby oil does a great job!

Rona Moberly
www.werescote.co.uk

--- In UK_Selfbuild@y..., "Tracey Gardner" <tracey.gardner@n...>
wrote:
>
> I'm surprised to hear that PVA acts as a waterproofer as it is
> water soluble.
>
> Tracey

   Forms a plsatic type skin on plasterboard.  Have used in copious
amounts on my bathroom plasterboard.  Seems this is method trade use,
but what do they know!

Dave
>
> >I am reliably  informed by those in the trade that Sealing
standard
> >plasterboard with PVA adhesive prior to tiling is an acceptable
> >alternative.
> >
> >> Rick

It appears to form a plastic skin but on the concrete floor
that I PVA'd you've only got to put a wet foot down and it
goes all white as the PVA dissolves?

Tracey

I thought someone may be interested in this. I've no connection with either
the Vendor nor the agent, the agent just happens to be local. This is their
blurb:

"The plot is close to the facilities of Overton village and already has a
consent for one detached dwelling. However this has been improved upon by an
application submitted for an architect designed family house of approx 2345
external sq. ft. Plans are available at this office for inspection. "

There is a URL, but no pictures.
http://www.findaproperty.com/cgi-bin/www.findaproperty.com/agent.pl?agentid=
1133&opt=prop&pid=049592

Agent's details:
Peter Leete & Partners
The Green, Headley Road
Grayshott
Hindhead
Surrey GU26 6LG
Tel: 01428 604480
Fax: 01428 605848
pleete@...


HTH,

Tim.


+

:)

No, you are right, the house is quite big because we want a 'quite big'
house. But it will make life easier with the kids...

Nigel
----- Original Message -----
From: <rick.hughes@...>
To: <UK_Selfbuild@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild bathroom design


> --- In UK_Selfbuild@y..., "Nigel Roberts" <nigelr@f...> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> >
> > :) A warehouse indeed!
> >
> > I hope we can afford it, I will let you know when we have finished!
> >
> > We need the room (really) as we have 3 children,
>
>
> Nice try but that is not the real reason - you obviously want a big
> house.
> My mother was one of 7 children - in a 2 bedroomed semi, no bathroom
> and the only water being an outside tap.
>
>
>
> Nice to have 4,000 sqft but 3 children isn't the real reason.
>
> Rick
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> UK_Selfbuild-unsubscribe@...
> The FAQ is available at: http://www.borpin.co.uk
> To contact the moderator eMail: Rick.Hughes@...
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
>
>
>

|->-----Original Message-----
|->From: victors@...
|->Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Range cookers
|->
|->
<snip>
|->
|->Hummmmm! That's blown it!... good point, never thought of that
|->and with
|->3 small daughters with sticky fingers, maybe a rethink.
|->I was thinking about brushed/mat SS not polished, is that what you
|->have?

All of our NEFF stuff was brushed SS.
It made little difference.
On a different tack, we had a Franke sink too, and while it was
'stainless' it was not scratchless.

The wife said she would have them again, and just accept that it
was all a bugger to keep clean. We have no kids so sticky fingers
(except mine !) weren't a problem.


|->Apparently WD40 cleans SS quite well (De-lorian cars had that
|->problem), not so good with cupcakes however, tastes a bit like a
|->mechanics lunch.

I didn't try WD40. I've used it on bikes and cars, but not kitchens ;-)

HTH.

Cheers,
     John.
...
This email is for the intended addressee only.
If you have received it in error then you must not use, retain, disseminate
or otherwise deal with it.  Please notify the sender by return email.
The views of the author may not necessarily constitute the views of Astrium
Limited.
Nothing in this email shall bind Astrium Limited in any contract or obligation.
Astrium Limited
Gunnels Wood Road
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 2AS

Chris,

Thanks for your concern - fair points, but it's that old syndrome that if
you cope with the impossible (in the interest of not disadvantaging the
kids) they give you more; if you tell them it's too much you're accused of
incompetence (or it's implied).  Everyone is chasing targets and deadlines,
from the Head down - his/her targets become segmented and passed down to add
to your own - if it looks like you won't achieve the targets they need
completed, you're chased; then you don't achieve your own, so you're
criticised.  The losers in all this are the kids, because that incredible
feeling you get when you see them understand something for the first time
(that sparkle in the eyes ! ) is swamped by the stack of documentation that
sits in the office waiting.

As for the organisations - too many, too disparate.  The Heads and
government (all of them) probably operate divide and rule.  In my school the
Heads of Faculty (departmental conglomerates) decided to meet without
"Senior Management Team" representation - I call them "mutiny meetings".

And as for the PTA...  with 1350 pupils, our PTA is lucky to rustle up 15-20
parents when it needs them.

This must seem very negative.  Sorry - it's the best job in the world when
that sparkle happens, and the most stressful for the other 99.5% of the
time.  I enjoy slaying dragons, so I stick to the post.

Perhaps the personality defect you need to be a teacher is to not be selfish
enough.

The refurbishment is the light relief that gives me a real life beyond
school !

Best regards,

Peter B
    peter@...
       mail is usually read at about 07.00 British Time each day

Before installing, you could spray with a clear lacquer, being sure to mask
up properly around any fittings.  This should prevent marks from sticky
little fingers and spills.

George

-----Original Message-----
From: victors@... [mailto:victors@...]
Sent: 01 November 2001 18:16
To: UK_Selfbuild@...
Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Range cookers


--- In UK_Selfbuild@y..., "Carol Weaver" <carol@c...> wrote:
> Stainless Steel - cliche yes - have installed all stainless steel,
> from American Fridge/Freezers to hobs, oven microwave and
dishwasher,
> would I do it again, NO, they are impossible to clean and look nice.
>
> These are not yet a year old, but will definitely rethink when I
> move - anyone know about aluminium, or does it suffer with the same
> problems, or of course, anyone any brilliant ideas on how to keep
them
> looking good and not showing every finger print etc.
>
> Carol

Hummmmm! That's blown it!... good point, never thought of that and with
3 small daughters with sticky fingers, maybe a rethink.
I was thinking about brushed/mat SS not polished, is that what you
have?
Apparently WD40 cleans SS quite well (De-lorian cars had that
problem), not so good with cupcakes however, tastes a bit like a
mechanics lunch.
Victor



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
UK_Selfbuild-unsubscribe@...
The FAQ is available at: http://www.borpin.co.uk
To contact the moderator eMail: Rick.Hughes@...


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html

--- In UK_Selfbuild@y..., "Nigel Roberts" <nigelr@f...> wrote:
> :)
>
> No, you are right, the house is quite big because we want a 'quite
big'
> house. But it will make life easier with the kids...
>
> Nigel

I have found its alot cheaper to build a smaller house and not have
the kids to start with!!

Anybody know where one can buy aluminium radiators off the shelf
without the usual 6-8 week wait?
Thanks
Dave

Life would be much cheaper and easier without the kids, but I would miss
them!

:)

Nigel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Lyne" <alyne@...>
To: <UK_Selfbuild@...>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild bathroom design


> --- In UK_Selfbuild@y..., "Nigel Roberts" <nigelr@f...> wrote:
> > :)
> >
> > No, you are right, the house is quite big because we want a 'quite
> big'
> > house. But it will make life easier with the kids...
> >
> > Nigel
>
> I have found its alot cheaper to build a smaller house and not have
> the kids to start with!!
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> UK_Selfbuild-unsubscribe@...
> The FAQ is available at: http://www.borpin.co.uk
> To contact the moderator eMail: Rick.Hughes@...
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
>
>
>

Anyone know where you can buy aluminium radiators off the shelf and
not have to wait the usual 4-6 weeks?
Thanks

Dave

--- In UK_Selfbuild@y..., "Mark Brinkley" <mark@r...> wrote:
> >> Is the costing broken down?
> >
> > No. Not in detail.
>
> A roof full (or should that be roaf full)
> of PV cells will cost around 25k.
> Vicki Martin's Green House which I have
> visited and written about is loosely
> based on Sue Roaf's Oxford house design

It is interesting on what Sue has written in "EcoHouse - a Design
Guide" on insulation levels.

>flow and return this blending valve.  Set to 54C it will be force the
>return water into condensing mode making your system more efficient.

No - stop saying this.  It does not force the boiler into
condensing mode, not without some other things being true
as well.

It cannot *lower* the temperature going to the boiler.

Its not there for that reason - its there to enable you to
maximise recovery performance by ensuring that the boiler
can always reach the target flow temp.

This *may* enable you to do the whole system recovery while
condensing.

FWIW I remember that the Danfoss blend valve can be had with
different ranges on it.  What's the big deal?

There is, in any case, no reason why thic shouldn't be
considered as thermal-store specific.  It would help with
maximising performance with a high-recovery cylinder to, though
to a lesser extent.

>Looking for a Range cooker in stainless steel (yes I know it's a bit
>cliché but I like them) 900+mm 6-plate mixed fuel. Anybody know of a
>company who has a good www site to view many makes and deals direct
>on line (discounted naturally), not looking for a pro unit @ £5k but
>looking for a package Cooker/splash/hood £1-1.5k ???? If anybody has
>already done the legwork I am more than willing to benefit!

Do you mean something that looks like an Aga, or the sort of thing
you see as a modern style 'range' in e.g. the Smeg catalog, or maybe
the more modern style of Britannia?

If the latter, well, we've bought a 900mm AND a 600mm stainless
Baumatic for about £1100, from memory.  This is a lot less than
a 120 (let alone 150) Britannia.

The Nardi is a bit cheaper still, the Smeg slightly more.  I thought
the Nardi looked OK, but I'm not the Expert and SWetc decided on
Baumatic.

Our experience with Smeg presales was such that we changed our mind,
we'd been going to buy Smeg.  That was before they had our money,
God Knows what they are like after.

In fact, a local supplier beat the best Baumatic web price quite
handily, so do shop around.

James

PS for interest - it seems that ALL of these things are made in
Italy.  Including Britannia.  Don't know why.

John,

You keep asserting this, but I'm not sure why.

You appear to imply that a vendor's 24kW combi will have a bigger
heat exchanger than the same vendor's 24kW system boiler, and
recently you used this as justification to buy a combi even if the
DWH side is not used.

Now, this does not make sense.

If you look in a combi, you'll probably see a bigger heat exchanger,
but that's because there are two exchangers, right?  You do not
change from system mode with an exchanger full of Fernox etc
to DHW mode by switching the incoming cold water into the same
bit of exchanger, do you?

Which combis can you point to, where the combi version has better
system performance?


You also recently suggested that it makes sense in a thermal
store application to have two boilers and sequence them so that
under heavy DHW load both are on, otherwise just one.

I'm intrigued to know for future reference how you might achieve
such sequencing.

(I know how I might do it, but it would involve programming a
microcontroller or using a PC.  How would you achieve it?)

James

I thought the items on the Jämerä building system (an efficient Finish
system of aircrete blocks for everything) and the item on the Irish Bricky
tool (three-times as many bricks laid in a day, no mortar in the cavity,
less waste mortar) were both very interesting.   Has anyone experience of
either of them, by any chance?

Chris

--- In UK_Selfbuild@y..., "James Mansion" <james@w...> wrote:

> John,
>
> You keep asserting this, but I'm not sure why.

Cost effectiveness, that's all.

> You appear to imply that a vendor's
> 24kW combi will have a bigger
> heat exchanger than the same vendor's
> 24kW system boiler, and
> recently you used this as justification
> to buy a combi even if the
> DWH side is not used.

James, not so.  Firstly a system boiler has the pressure vessel and
pump in one box.  The boiler Gas-to-water heat-exchangers are usually
the same on the combi as on the system version - same stock item.  A
combi has an additional plate heat-exchanger which is water to water -
  the water section.

> Now, this does not make sense.
>
> If you look in a combi, you'll probably
> see a bigger heat exchanger,
> but that's because there are two exchangers,
> right?

See above.

> Which combis can you point to, where
> the combi version has better
> system performance?

None.  The performance will be the same.  In fact the performance
could be better in some instances as combis have modulated burners.

Why I mentioned this is that combis are mass produced and
competitive.  Look at the price of a 90,000ish Btus combi and the
eqiv system boiler.  You may find the combi is much cheaper.  Many
combis are available at under £500.

> You also recently suggested that it
> makes sense in a thermal
> store application to have two boilers
> and sequence them so that
> under heavy DHW load both are on,
> otherwise just one.

Not so James. I said consider two cheap condensinbg boilers (Ideal
and Henrad - same thing).  For under £1,000 you can get two 50,000
btus condensers.  How much is a 100,000 btu condensing boiler?  With
two you also have the fallback of backup heating.  Worth thinking of
if you need 100,000 Btus.  You need over that and Jason has a similar
heat-bank set-up, so hence my suggestion.

> I'm intrigued to know for future reference
> how you might achieve
> such sequencing.

The simple way is to have the two set with their boiler stats about
5C apart or so, or you can get a dedicated sequence controller from
Landis & Saefa or Danfoss, etc.  This senses the flow (or return)
temp and brings in the boilers to suit - on part load it will switch
one out and bring in the lead to suit.  In a thermal store set-up
probably not worth buying the sequencer as you want full power most
of the time for a rapid warm-up.

> (I know how I might do it, but it
> would involve programming a
> microcontroller or using a PC.
> How would you achieve it?)

See above.

--- In UK_Selfbuild@y..., "James Mansion" <james@w...> wrote:

> > flow and return this blending valve.  Set
> > to 54C it will be force the
> > return water into condensing mode
> > making your system more efficient.
>
> No - stop saying this.  It does
> not force the boiler into
> condensing mode, not without some
> other things being true
> as well.

I'm simplfying.  It does ensure that a condsnensing boiler will be
under the magic 54C though, well for most of the warm-up period.

> FWIW I remember that the Danfoss
> blend valve can be had with
> different ranges on it.  What's the big deal?

What was the model NO.?

> There is, in any case, no reason
> why thic shouldn't be
> considered as thermal-store specific.

True.

> It would help with
> maximising performance with a
> high-recovery cylinder to, though
> to a lesser extent.

They shine more in direct connected thermal store/boilers more than
indirect coil set-ups

Nevertheless the performce of a thermal store can be improved by
fitting one of these valves.

Subject: RE: UK_Selfbuild Solar Cases - Actual


> >Case Study 1 - 12 Raleigh Road, Richmond, Surrey .The first house in the
UK
> >to have a roof made of Solar shingles.It is a mid-terrace house which was
> >stripped and re-roofed.
>
> I had in mind that house was actually owned by one of the Solar Century
> directors.
>
> >Cost - Approximately £8-9,000/kWp - including cost of roof work
>
> Was there not a grant involved?

Can't help here - I just requoted their published figures
>
> It would be interesting to know if that cost is what it cost them
> (i.e. essentially wholesale) or is what they'd charge to do it
> again, retail.

It certainly would.

Subject: RE: UK_Selfbuild Re: ufh query from a new member


> Barry,
>
> I think you are mistaken.

I guarantee I am not.

>
> Its not easy to recruit subbies who are willing to try new things,
> and to some extent 'warm roof' is a 'new thing', apparently.

I have worked with 2 types of subbie - those who are competent and can work
alone solving any day to day queries on their own, because they know what
they are doing and can read plans and those who are a drain on resources
because they don't know, or pretend they don't know, what they are doing and
are employed because they are "cheap". Without exception the "cheap" labour
is always more expensive because of the extra managerial input required to
drag them up to the standards of a competent subbie. Any competent roofer
armed with a plan and a spec can build a warm roof. If the subbie cannot
follow a detailed drawing and spec he should not be on site - he will not be
on one of my sites. I have recently had to "finish" 6 so called carpenters
on the same site for poor workmanship. As an example we were erecting
non-load bearing walls in flats. One team was completing 3 units a week -
the other 1 unit. Guess which team got the bullet after 3 days.

Let's not confuse competent tradespeople with low price subbies. A good team
of erectors will not be the cheapest on the market - but you will have a
better job, built on time and with less managerial input. Those factors
alone rule out cut price bodgers. The reason they say they can't or won't
work with SIP's is that they are not confident of their own abilities. Good
erectors are always busy and that is the reason why - they deliver a good
product, on time with minimal supervision.

Any roofer who cannot build a warm roof with confidence is either lazy,
short sighted or a dinosaur. Cold roofs are on their way out.


> MY personal experience is very different to yours.  I think SIPS sound
> an excellent idea, but to suggest that we can all easily source them,
> or easily get a sinsible quote for erection, is in my view likely to be
> a mis-statement, albeit one that will improve with time.

I thought the purpose of this forum was to help each other. I would not post
anything I could not support or help people with. I know very capable
erectors who are familiar with large panel erections and who would work for
self builders. If you have had a "quote for erection" that was not sensible
the person you approached was not familiar with the system or didn't want
the job. If you approached someone for a quote and they sensed it was not a
serious enquiry they would have priced it accordingly. Subbies will load
prices for jobs they perceive as hassle or simply don't want. They will look
for the easy money where they don't have to think or can find an easy
target.

SIP's are easy to source - see previous postings. SIP's availability is
growing quickly. The overall situation is improving rapidly as builders are
gearing up for Spring starts using SIP's. Self builders can start to design
using this technology now if they desire.


>
> When you can get this stuff from Travis, and the local guys know
> which way up it goes, then it will change.
> I'm hoping all this will change before my parents build.

James - if you seriously want it - it's already there. Blank panels are
already available. Pre-machined panels are already available. Blank panels
are much cheaper - especially for bulk buys.You will shortly be able to buy
them from some timber frame manufacturers and roof truss manufacturers as
they see SIP's as the next generation of timber frame. They also have the in
house expertise to design a complete house using SIP's. Sip's design
software is very similar to t/f.

>> >Joe Selfbuilder can still use the same system and techniques as Mr
> >Multi-national.
>> I think you're wrong, for the reasons above.

I guarantee I am not wrong James.


  Mr Multinational can
> afford training for foremen and site supervisors, if not a whole
> crew.
>

James, I respect your views and knowledge on many subjects - and your fears
as a "layman" on this issue are understandable but are simply unjustified
and unfounded. Any competant timber frame erector can work with SIP's. They
are numbered and pre-machined in the factory. They cannot go in upside down
as you fear.

SIP's are easier and quicker to work with than standard t/f. They reduce
build time and give a greater level of performance and thermal efficiency.

Barry

Aaaah, but the pleasures missed ......

Nick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Lyne" <alyne@...>
To: <UK_Selfbuild@...>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild bathroom design


> --- In UK_Selfbuild@y..., "Nigel Roberts" <nigelr@f...> wrote:
> > :)
> >
> > No, you are right, the house is quite big because we want a 'quite
> big'
> > house. But it will make life easier with the kids...
> >
> > Nigel
>
> I have found its alot cheaper to build a smaller house and not have
> the kids to start with!!
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> UK_Selfbuild-unsubscribe@...
> The FAQ is available at: http://www.borpin.co.uk
> To contact the moderator eMail: Rick.Hughes@...
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
>
>

--- In UK_Selfbuild@y..., "Barry Fryer" <barry.fryer@l...> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: UK_Selfbuild Solar Cases - Actual
>
>
> > >Case Study 1 - 12 Raleigh Road, Richmond,
> > >Surrey .The first house in the UK
> > >to have a roof made of Solar shingles. It
> > >is a mid-terrace house which was
> > >stripped and re-roofed.
> >
> > I had in mind that house was actually
> > owned by one of the Solar Century
> > directors.
> >
> > > Cost - Approximately £8-9,000/kWp - including
> > > cost of roof work
> >
> > Was there not a grant involved?
>
> Can't help here - I just requoted their
> published figures
>
> > It would be interesting to know if that
> > cost is what it cost them
> > (i.e. essentially wholesale) or is what
> > they'd charge to do it again, retail.
>
> It certainly would.

Some interesting figure from Sue Roafs book EcoHouse.

- In 2000 Germany had 10,000 full PV cell roofs, 100,000 planned for
2010.
- Japan has a programe of 70,000 roofs by 2010.
- The USA has a programe of 1 million roofs by 2010.

The UK? Well, grim reading..In 2000 the UK had only 10 full PV cell
roofs.

The cost of these roofs is:

In Sacramento, the cost of installing per 1 watt is £2.75, while in
the UK it is £9.

If the price came down to USA levels then there would be mass takeup
in the UK.  PV cell roofs would then become feasible.  Is this enter
James?  What would we do without him. :-)

British people only understand machines.  Machines to heat the house,
machines to cool the house, machines to vent the house.  They don't
understand how to design and place a house within nature to maximise
heating/cooling/ventilation.

An electric machine on the roof making electricity to heat or cool
they will understand.

This country is suffering, in many ways, from short sighted
investment policies.  The only way we will come into line is when the
EU force us to.  Luckily the Germans have a sway on the environmental
issues in the EU.

--- In UK_Selfbuild@y..., "Barry Fryer" <barry.fryer@l...> wrote:

> SIP's are easier and quicker to work with
> than standard t/f. They reduce
> build time and give a greater level of
> performance and thermal efficiency.

Barry,

And I want one!

The skills in SIPs in minimal. In the USA companies are going to SIPs
because the skills required to build them are minimal.  The Book
Structural Insulated panels explains the skills in detail with nice
colour piccies.

They were invented in the 1950s and in the early 1960s, when
manufacturing them dropped from hours to 20 mins each, the US labour
unions dragged their feet on them fearing mass de-skilling, or
redundancies, of the large carpenter (TF) base.  The unions were
acting in the interests of their members (self interest in another
form, not just oil and auto companies).  The carpenters would
deliberately erect SIPs in twice or three times the time, so
companies dropped them fearing them to be problematical.

The idea was to erect fast and cheap.  Thermal or acoustic efficiency
was not an issue in 1960s USA where they burnt oil like it was going
out of fashion.  After the 1970s oil crisis's priorities changed.
SIPs are here and solve many problems in house building and morso in
the living and running of them.

To a selfbuilder they are manner from heaven.

From: <john.burns-curtis@...>
To: <UK_Selfbuild@...>




> > SIP's are easier and quicker to work with
> > than standard t/f. They reduce
> > build time and give a greater level of
> > performance and thermal efficiency.
>

>
> To a selfbuilder they are manner from heaven.

It's not just SIP's that are undergoing change. I recently visited a site of
a competitor, Stuart Milne Timber Frame and was very impressed with the t/f
panels and speed of erection. The site was a 92 bedroom 3 storey hotel. It
was erected from sole plate to structural shell - handover in 3 weeks from
the time the first length of sole plate was laid to the time the roof was
on.

Large panels, cassette floors and erectors who know what they are doing is
the key. Scheduled deliveries to site also vitally important to keep men and
machinery busy. The crane alone is £350 a day - so it has to earn its keep.


Barry

>pump in one box.  The boiler Gas-to-water heat-exchangers are usually
>the same on the combi as on the system version - same stock item.  A
>combi has an additional plate heat-exchanger which is water to water -
> the water section.

Fine, so the combi DOES NOT have a bigger heat exchanger.

I was surprised when you said:
>Combi's have large heating outputs, and copper/alum heat-exchangers,

This was to me irrelevant at best.

If what you mean is that you can get a lot of output *for
your money* with a combi, well, fine.

A small combi is still a small combi.  Or rather, a big combi
is a big combi, but its no bigger than a similar big boiler.

Presumably this point:
>The Ferroli models don't have 3 way valves to go wrong and are much
>simpler.  As combis, if the pump fails the DHW just keeps working.

is in fact saing that the design above with a pump and secondary
plate exchanger doesn't always follow, and in this case there are
separate vessels in the units single qater/air exchanger.

>None.  The performance will be the same.  In fact the performance
>could be better in some instances as combis have modulated burners.

I can't see any reason why the burner control would not be
common, it doesn't make sense.  All the ones I've looked
at had a great deal in common.  Unless there's a reliability
or ease-of-maintenance issue, why wouldn't they be?

>Why I mentioned this is that combis are mass produced and
>competitive.  Look at the price of a 90,000ish Btus combi and the
>eqiv system boiler.  You may find the combi is much cheaper.  Many
>combis are available at under £500.

From memory its important to be careful here in terms of the
pump and (particularly) the size of the expansion vessel.  The
case is only so big, after all.

Certainly with UFH, the internal expansion vessel in most
of these things is too small.

In the case of an Eco-Hometec EC38S combi you need to add
an external pressure vessel and a 3bar pressure release
valve, because there isn't room in the case for the modest
10l one fitted otherwise.

(Talking of which, the efficiency change between 30/40 and 60/75
qoted in the Eco Hometec installation document doesn't actually
square with the table you quoted previously)

>> I'm intrigued to know for future reference
>> how you might achieve
>> such sequencing.
>
>The simple way is to have the two set with their boiler stats about
>5C apart or so, or you can get a dedicated sequence controller from
>Landis & Saefa or Danfoss, etc.  This senses the flow (or return)
>temp and brings in the boilers to suit - on part load it will switch
>one out and bring in the lead to suit.  In a thermal store set-up
>probably not worth buying the sequencer as you want full power most
>of the time for a rapid warm-up.

That's the point - this doesn't work very effectively with a direct
thermal store.  You're always looking at 'recovery'.

As you say, you probably want to hold off for longer and then fire
both of them in parallel.

You could probably rig something up, I suppose, so that you had
two boilers running when the bottom of the store is very cold, so
the flow rate is halved in each - but I suspect that the delta-T
limitations will conspire against this, just as with pump speed
control (which this is, crudely).

I gues an ideal boiler for a store will have a very big exchanger
and a huge range of pump speed modulation, with the boiler running
flat out.  If you didn't have a low max water temp on the DHW side
of a combi, you could probably rig something up with an Alpha
or a PWM pump controller.

James

>I'm simplfying.  It does ensure that a condsnensing boiler will be
>under the magic 54C though, well for most of the warm-up period.

No it doesn't, not really.  If the blend valve is
feeding at 54C then without it the feed would have been
less than 54C.

Its more about what you can achieve in one pass without
having to modulate the burner and/or pump speed (assuming
arbitrary delta-T, which is of course a bad assumption
and that's the real reason why it can help condensing).

I think its mesleading to suggest that it keeps the
temp down - it keeps it up!


>> FWIW I remember that the Danfoss
>> blend valve can be had with
>> different ranges on it.  What's the big deal?
>
>What was the model NO.?

Use a VMV or KOVM body with a RAVI sensor (43-65) or
a RAVK sensor (25-65)

Looks like I'd misremembered - I thouht the RAVK had a
lower upper limit.  No matter, either will do for
UFH, or DHW anti-scald, or GXV-type blend in the boiler
return.

James

John wrote -

> This country is suffering, in many ways, from short sighted
> investment policies.  The only way we will come into line is when the
> EU force us to.  Luckily the Germans have a sway on the environmental
> issues in the EU

Why is that?   Why does the UK behave like this ... is it habit? ...
necessity? ... ignorance? ... I'd love to know ... it costs us dear.

Chris

> John wrote -
>
> > This country is suffering, in many ways, from short sighted
> > investment policies.  The only way we will come into line is when the
> > EU force us to.  Luckily the Germans have a sway on the environmental
> > issues in the EU
>
> Why is that?   Why does the UK behave like this ... is it habit? ...
> necessity? ... ignorance? ... I'd love to know ... it costs us dear.
>
> Chris

The new thermal Building Regs requirements Part L was finally published on
Wednesday - 3 years after public consultation started. Why the delay?
The initial proposals were considered too onerous by some big players and
were watered down after extensive lobbying by those whose products could not
meet the new standards. Walls are now 0.35 not 0.3. Not much you might
think - but if your product can't hack it - a fatal blow in the market
place, hence the frantic behind the scenes panic.

The Regs will come into force six months from date of publication.

The industry however is already building houses beyond these u-values and
Zero CO2 emission houses are being built at the moment.

Zero CO2 houses are predicted to be the norm for new builds by 2012.

Energy saving houses will become more topical as the level of awareness is
raised in the public eye. It's not what it costs today that matters - it's
how we want to influence our future environment.

Barry

Barry mentioned that 'zero CO2 emission houses' were now being built.

Do the occupants just hold their breath?

Seriously what is a zero CO2 house.

Thanks
Marsh'n'Val