Tracy -


the John Lewis one at £399 is 3.92kWhr per cycle, the £599 one is
2.4kWhr per cycle

at about 10p per unit, that would be £200/15p saving plus something
for lost interest or cost of borrowing = say 1500 cycles to pay back
...

Chris



On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Tracey Gardner
<tracey.gardner@...> wrote:
>
>
> Can you point me to an actual model please, as I'm struggling to find one
> like you describe? I've done some Googling and even the best A rated
> Bosch/AEG and John Lewis condenser driers seem to be around 2.4kW
>
> Thanks
>
> Tracey
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "impvan" <carl@...>
> To: <UK_Selfbuild@...>
> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 9:03 PM
> Subject: UK_Selfbuild Re: Condensing Tumble Dryers
>
>> If you REALLY want a good tumble drier you need one of the refrigerating
>> ones. Not kidding, it works.
>>
>> It's actually a dehumidifier built in to a tumble drier. Next to no heat
>> is used so you can put very delicate stuff in. And Tshirts don't become
>> wider than long....
>>
>> Uses about 1kW compared to 3kW for a conventional one.
>>
>> Bosch/AEG do one, and John Lewis have them with their own badge on.
>>
>> impvan

forgot the link :

http://www.johnlewis.com/230475118/Product.aspx

Chris



On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Chris Hunter (home)
<chris.cjcmhunter@...> wrote:
> Tracy -
>
>
> the John Lewis one at £399 is 3.92kWhr per cycle, the £599 one is
> 2.4kWhr per cycle
>
> at about 10p per unit, that would be £200/15p saving plus something
> for lost interest or cost of borrowing = say 1500 cycles to pay back
> ...
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Tracey Gardner
> <tracey.gardner@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Can you point me to an actual model please, as I'm struggling to find one
>> like you describe? I've done some Googling and even the best A rated
>> Bosch/AEG and John Lewis condenser driers seem to be around 2.4kW
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Tracey
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "impvan" <carl@...>
>> To: <UK_Selfbuild@...>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 9:03 PM
>> Subject: UK_Selfbuild Re: Condensing Tumble Dryers
>>
>>> If you REALLY want a good tumble drier you need one of the refrigerating
>>> ones. Not kidding, it works.
>>>
>>> It's actually a dehumidifier built in to a tumble drier. Next to no heat
>>> is used so you can put very delicate stuff in. And Tshirts don't become
>>> wider than long....
>>>
>>> Uses about 1kW compared to 3kW for a conventional one.
>>>
>>> Bosch/AEG do one, and John Lewis have them with their own badge on.
>>>
>>> impvan
>

--- In UK_Selfbuild@..., "Tracey Gardner" <tracey.gardner@...>
wrote:
>
> Can you point me to an actual model please,

The John Lewis unit is the JLTDC01 - several have gone through a friend's white
goods shop. He gets them very cheap as JL returns; not faulty, but customer
orders one, doesn't understand how it works, and complains when the clothes
don't get hot.  There are two running in a pub in Malvern at the moment doing
much of the small laundry, many loads per day.

The AEG (which is what the JL machine is under the badge) is a T59840.

The Miele is the T8626 (I think)

impvan

--- In UK_Selfbuild@..., "Chris Hunter (home)"
<chris.cjcmhunter@...> wrote:
>
> have to say, I imagined they all worked that way - with a heat pump

Not in the domestic world.  Commercial HP driers have been around since the 80's

Domestic machines work simply by blowing hot air through the laundry.  While
heat is necessary, it's the airflow that really matters so the straighter the
exhaust ducting the better, and keeping the filter spotless of course....

impvan

I had cause to drain down our thermal store yesterday, to replace the
immersion that had sprung a leak (crack opened up in pressing).
Having closed all the isolation valves for the various heating loops,
and opened the drain cock, I noticed that 1 of the 2 22mm lever ball
valves were leaking, and 1 of the 2 peglar pump isolators was leaking
too.
All of them through the screw / operating shaft hole.

I am really beginning to hate these things !
Is there any make of these that do not leak ?!?

To replace these would be a major PITA.
Is there any way of either helping these things seal, or possibly
prolonging
the life of those I have that don't leak yet :-/

Oh, I should add, all of these are on heating circuits. The 3 22mm ball
valves
that are on the water header tank (and so don't get hot) work just fine.

rant over ;-)

Cheers,
     Webbo.

This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential
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notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any
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Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259
Registered Office:
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ouch, disappointing ... two thoughts - have two in series always (more
to go wrong, of course, but at least the leaks are not floods, so one
can help while changing the other), and cycle them all every so often,
maybe every thee months ?   And a third - maybe a filter might help,
and/or one of those anti-hardness depositation devices ...

NB: some have said leaks after use do go away quite often - sounds
like the seal goes stiff, or gets slightly distorted or something ?

Chris



On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:49 AM, WEBSTER, Edward ( known as John)
<edward.webster@...> wrote:
>
>
> I had cause to drain down our thermal store yesterday, to replace the
> immersion that had sprung a leak (crack opened up in pressing).
> Having closed all the isolation valves for the various heating loops,
> and opened the drain cock, I noticed that 1 of the 2 22mm lever ball
> valves were leaking, and 1 of the 2 peglar pump isolators was leaking
> too.
> All of them through the screw / operating shaft hole.
>
> I am really beginning to hate these things !
> Is there any make of these that do not leak ?!?
>
> To replace these would be a major PITA.
> Is there any way of either helping these things seal, or possibly
> prolonging
> the life of those I have that don't leak yet :-/
>
> Oh, I should add, all of these are on heating circuits. The 3 22mm ball
> valves
> that are on the water header tank (and so don't get hot) work just fine.
>
> rant over ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Webbo

Is the balcony fixed to the verticals at either end?  If so, maybe you could get
away with bonding it instead of mechanical fixing?



To: UK_Selfbuild@...
From: rex-butcher@...
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 13:19:10 +0000
Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Balcony Railing







I have considered this, but ......!

From the balcony deck, I would not only be bolting through the insulation, but
also though the waterproof membrane. Neither seems a good idea.

From the front, I would be going through the fascia, a 2" thick piece of wood
and into some box section steel. But on the fascia, I will need to put a gutter.

Have considered inserting some half round guttering into the insulation,
covering with the waterproof membrane and draining from one end, but this will
be a lot of work. However, this may be the only way.

I just cannot see an alternative solution at the moment.

Rex

--- In UK_Selfbuild@..., "Chris Hunter (home)"
<chris.cjcmhunter@...> wrote:
>
> hmm - why not just longer bolts ?
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 10:22 PM, Rex <rex-butcher@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi there,
> >
> > Have encountered another challenge!
> >
> > The bedroom balcony has the lounge under it. The lounge ceiling will be
> > insulated but the
> > BCO has told me that I have to have a warm roof, of 90mm Celotex. He
> > recommends that one
> > with 6mm WBP on top. The edges of the balcony is steel. The insulation is
> > good as it
> > will raise the external floor level closer to that of the bedroom floor.
> >
> > However, this now changes how to fix a balustrade, and frankly, I am
> > stumped. Can't fix
> > down to the steel now as there is 90mm of insulation. And the front edge of
> > the steel
> > will have to have wood gunned onto it, to take the guttering.
> >
> > So how to fix a balustrade solidly?
> >
> > Any ideas would be much appreciated.
> >
> > Rex
>









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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1500 is a LOT of cycles...
And it assumes no leccy price hikes, no repairs or maintenance and so
on.
Nick

Nick Laurie PC Repairs
nwlaurie@...
Skype: nicklaurie
01458 250834 and 07941 731056





On 1 Jun 2009, at 08:35, Chris Hunter (home) wrote:

> Tracy -
>
>
> the John Lewis one at £399 is 3.92kWhr per cycle, the £599 one is
> 2.4kWhr per cycle
>
> at about 10p per unit, that would be £200/15p saving plus something
> for lost interest or cost of borrowing = say 1500 cycles to pay back
> ...
>
> Chris

I did a quick Google on Impvan's information and found the following,

"For some home owners, tumble dryers are one of the most important users of
electricity. A typical machine bought today will use over 3.5 kilowatt hours
in a full cycle. The best machines use 'heat pumps' to improve efficiency.
These machines have been difficult to find, but John Lewis has recently
started stocking what I think is an AEG model under its own brand name.
This machine - called the JLTDC01 - is expensive. At £499, it is probably
over £150 more expensive than equivalent dryers without heat pumps. The
saving in electricity use is about 1.5 kilowatt hours for a full cycle. If
you use the machine 100 times a year, then the saving will be about 65 kg of
carbon dioxide. Over ten years, the reduction in emissions will be about two
thirds of a tonne. The £150 extra on the price looks costly. There are
cheaper ways of cutting emissions!"


Tracey

I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd likely just
end up with both of them leaking !

The pump valve was trully amazing, I could hear it bleeding air past the

screw as I refilled the tank - just like it had turned into an air bleed

valve <roll eyes>
I've stuck some plumbers mate on this one - If I have to change it at
least I can turn the valve off the other end of the pump. And then of
course wait for that one to leak...
The other one stopped leaking once turned back to the on position again.

My feeling is, either the rubber O rings are hardening with the heat,
or they are deforming / sticking to the shaft, so once you move it it
allows water to pass.
I don't think it has anything to do with hard water, but I could be
wrong.
Having taken the immersion heater out of the tank it wasn't all scaled
up
or anything, and the inside of the tank looked pretty clean.
Don't forget that it is the heating circuit, so has furnox in it.

Now here is another thought - just how much fernox have you other guys
put
in your ch / ufh systems ?
Can you put too much in ?

Cheers,
     Webbo.


|-> -----Original Message-----
|-> On Behalf Of Chris Hunter (home)
|-> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:00 AM
|-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
|->
|-> ouch, disappointing ... two thoughts - have two in series
|-> always (more to go wrong, of course, but at least the leaks
|-> are not floods, so one can help while changing the other),
|-> and cycle them all every so often,
|-> maybe every thee months ?   And a third - maybe a filter might help,
|-> and/or one of those anti-hardness depositation devices ...
|->
|-> NB: some have said leaks after use do go away quite often -
|-> sounds like the seal goes stiff, or gets slightly distorted
|-> or something ?
|->
|-> Chris
|->
|->
|->
|-> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:49 AM, WEBBO wrote:
|-> >
|-> >
|-> > I had cause to drain down our thermal store yesterday, to
|-> replace the
|-> > immersion that had sprung a leak (crack opened up in pressing).
|-> > Having closed all the isolation valves for the various
|-> heating loops,
|-> > and opened the drain cock, I noticed that 1 of the 2 22mm
|-> lever ball
|-> > valves were leaking, and 1 of the 2 peglar pump isolators
|-> was leaking
|-> > too.
|-> > All of them through the screw / operating shaft hole.
|-> >
|-> > I am really beginning to hate these things !
|-> > Is there any make of these that do not leak ?!?
|-> >
|-> > To replace these would be a major PITA.
|-> > Is there any way of either helping these things seal, or possibly
|-> > prolonging the life of those I have that don't leak yet :-/
|-> >
|-> > Oh, I should add, all of these are on heating circuits.
|-> The 3 22mm
|-> > ball valves that are on the water header tank (and so
|-> don't get hot)
|-> > work just fine.
|-> >
|-> > rant over ;-)
|-> >
|-> > Cheers,
|-> > Webbo
|->
|->

This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential
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from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please
notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any
attachments and do not use it for any purpose or disclose its
content to any person, but delete this message and any attachments
from your system. Astrium disclaims any and all liability if this
email transmission was virus corrupted, altered or falsified.
-o-
Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259
Registered Office:
Gunnels Wood Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2AS, England

aye ... 'though it also ignores any performance differences - eg:
Carl's note about less shrinkage ... ie: shorter payback if less
clothes ruined  !!

BTW, while I had imagined all condenser dryers these days used a heat
pump, the JL model differences (3.92kWhr per 7kg dried vs 2.4kWhr per
7kg dried, both condenser's) might imply otherwise - ISTR once (long
time ago) seeing a diagram of a German one that used cold mains water
to do the condensing, rather than a heat-pump, but no idea if that's
what's making the difference between the JL machines, but it's
difficult to understand where the £200 difference comes from otherwise
!

IIRC AEG are joined with Electrolux & Zanussi now, and Bosch & Siemens
are joined, too ... hope I've got that right !

Chris



On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Nick Laurie <nwlaurie@...> wrote:
>
>
> 1500 is a LOT of cycles...
> And it assumes no leccy price hikes, no repairs or maintenance and so
> on.
> Nick
>
> Nick Laurie PC Repairs
> nwlaurie@...
> Skype: nicklaurie
> 01458 250834 and 07941 731056
>
> On 1 Jun 2009, at 08:35, Chris Hunter (home) wrote:
>
>> Tracy -
>>
>>
>> the John Lewis one at £399 is 3.92kWhr per cycle, the £599 one is
>> 2.4kWhr per cycle
>>
>> at about 10p per unit, that would be £200/15p saving plus something
>> for lost interest or cost of borrowing = say 1500 cycles to pay back
>> ...
>>
>> Chris
>
>

> I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd likely just end up with
both of them leaking !

yep, of course, but at least you'd be able to use one to help replace
the other, without having to drain the whole system and replace all
the inhibitor - well, that was the idea, anyway !

Chris



On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:26 AM, WEBSTER, Edward ( known as John)
<edward.webster@...> wrote:
>
>
> I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd likely just
> end up with both of them leaking !
>
> The pump valve was trully amazing, I could hear it bleeding air past the
>
> screw as I refilled the tank - just like it had turned into an air bleed
>
> valve <roll eyes>
> I've stuck some plumbers mate on this one - If I have to change it at
> least I can turn the valve off the other end of the pump. And then of
> course wait for that one to leak...
> The other one stopped leaking once turned back to the on position again.
>
> My feeling is, either the rubber O rings are hardening with the heat,
> or they are deforming / sticking to the shaft, so once you move it it
> allows water to pass.
> I don't think it has anything to do with hard water, but I could be
> wrong.
> Having taken the immersion heater out of the tank it wasn't all scaled
> up
> or anything, and the inside of the tank looked pretty clean.
> Don't forget that it is the heating circuit, so has furnox in it.
>
> Now here is another thought - just how much fernox have you other guys
> put
> in your ch / ufh systems ?
> Can you put too much in ?
>
> Cheers,
> Webbo.
>
> |-> -----Original Message-----
> |-> On Behalf Of Chris Hunter (home)
> |-> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:00 AM
> |-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
> |->
> |-> ouch, disappointing ... two thoughts - have two in series
>
> |-> always (more to go wrong, of course, but at least the leaks
> |-> are not floods, so one can help while changing the other),
> |-> and cycle them all every so often,
> |-> maybe every thee months ? And a third - maybe a filter might help,
> |-> and/or one of those anti-hardness depositation devices ...
> |->
> |-> NB: some have said leaks after use do go away quite often -
> |-> sounds like the seal goes stiff, or gets slightly distorted
> |-> or something ?
> |->
> |-> Chris
> |->
> |->
> |->
> |-> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:49 AM, WEBBO wrote:
> |-> >
> |-> >
> |-> > I had cause to drain down our thermal store yesterday, to
> |-> replace the
> |-> > immersion that had sprung a leak (crack opened up in pressing).
> |-> > Having closed all the isolation valves for the various
> |-> heating loops,
> |-> > and opened the drain cock, I noticed that 1 of the 2 22mm
> |-> lever ball
> |-> > valves were leaking, and 1 of the 2 peglar pump isolators
> |-> was leaking
> |-> > too.
> |-> > All of them through the screw / operating shaft hole.
> |-> >
> |-> > I am really beginning to hate these things !
> |-> > Is there any make of these that do not leak ?!?
> |-> >
> |-> > To replace these would be a major PITA.
> |-> > Is there any way of either helping these things seal, or possibly
> |-> > prolonging the life of those I have that don't leak yet :-/
> |-> >
> |-> > Oh, I should add, all of these are on heating circuits.
> |-> The 3 22mm
> |-> > ball valves that are on the water header tank (and so
> |-> don't get hot)
> |-> > work just fine.
> |-> >
> |-> > rant over ;-)
> |-> >
> |-> > Cheers,
> |-> > Webbo
> |->
> |->
>
> This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential
> and/or privileged information or information otherwise protected
> from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any
> attachments and do not use it for any purpose or disclose its
> content to any person, but delete this message and any attachments
> from your system. Astrium disclaims any and all liability if this
> email transmission was virus corrupted, altered or falsified.
> -o-
> Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259
> Registered Office:
> Gunnels Wood Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2AS, England
>
>

Hi John
I am still in boat mode and am relieved from house duties....
Sea cocks on boats are kept watertight by the use of a thick water resistant
grease.
Wonder if this would work for your valves?
Better than plumbers mait, assuming we are talking moving parts here.
Just a thought.
Rgds
Peter
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: WEBSTER, Edward ( known as John)
   To: UK_Selfbuild@...
   Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:26 AM
   Subject: RE: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !





   I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd likely just
   end up with both of them leaking !

   The pump valve was trully amazing, I could hear it bleeding air past the

   screw as I refilled the tank - just like it had turned into an air bleed

   valve <roll eyes>
   I've stuck some plumbers mate on this one - If I have to change it at
   least I can turn the valve off the other end of the pump. And then of
   course wait for that one to leak...
   The other one stopped leaking once turned back to the on position again.

   My feeling is, either the rubber O rings are hardening with the heat,
   or they are deforming / sticking to the shaft, so once you move it it
   allows water to pass.
   I don't think it has anything to do with hard water, but I could be
   wrong.
   Having taken the immersion heater out of the tank it wasn't all scaled
   up
   or anything, and the inside of the tank looked pretty clean.
   Don't forget that it is the heating circuit, so has furnox in it.

   Now here is another thought - just how much fernox have you other guys
   put
   in your ch / ufh systems ?
   Can you put too much in ?

   Cheers,
   Webbo.

   |-> -----Original Message-----
   |-> On Behalf Of Chris Hunter (home)
   |-> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:00 AM
   |-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
   |->
   |-> ouch, disappointing ... two thoughts - have two in series
   |-> always (more to go wrong, of course, but at least the leaks
   |-> are not floods, so one can help while changing the other),
   |-> and cycle them all every so often,
   |-> maybe every thee months ? And a third - maybe a filter might help,
   |-> and/or one of those anti-hardness depositation devices ...
   |->
   |-> NB: some have said leaks after use do go away quite often -
   |-> sounds like the seal goes stiff, or gets slightly distorted
   |-> or something ?
   |->
   |-> Chris
   |->
   |->
   |->
   |-> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:49 AM, WEBBO wrote:
   |-> >
   |-> >
   |-> > I had cause to drain down our thermal store yesterday, to
   |-> replace the
   |-> > immersion that had sprung a leak (crack opened up in pressing).
   |-> > Having closed all the isolation valves for the various
   |-> heating loops,
   |-> > and opened the drain cock, I noticed that 1 of the 2 22mm
   |-> lever ball
   |-> > valves were leaking, and 1 of the 2 peglar pump isolators
   |-> was leaking
   |-> > too.
   |-> > All of them through the screw / operating shaft hole.
   |-> >
   |-> > I am really beginning to hate these things !
   |-> > Is there any make of these that do not leak ?!?
   |-> >
   |-> > To replace these would be a major PITA.
   |-> > Is there any way of either helping these things seal, or possibly
   |-> > prolonging the life of those I have that don't leak yet :-/
   |-> >
   |-> > Oh, I should add, all of these are on heating circuits.
   |-> The 3 22mm
   |-> > ball valves that are on the water header tank (and so
   |-> don't get hot)
   |-> > work just fine.
   |-> >
   |-> > rant over ;-)
   |-> >
   |-> > Cheers,
   |-> > Webbo
   |->
   |->

   This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential
   and/or privileged information or information otherwise protected
   from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please
   notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any
   attachments and do not use it for any purpose or disclose its
   content to any person, but delete this message and any attachments
   from your system. Astrium disclaims any and all liability if this
   email transmission was virus corrupted, altered or falsified.
   -o-
   Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259
   Registered Office:
   Gunnels Wood Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2AS, England




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Chris,
it doesn't really help.
Replacing either will have pressure behind it from one side.
Remember there is a head of pressure in the system.
Shutting all the valves off to the heating circuits still leaves
the cold feed and vent to the tank, so the only way to relieve
the pressure is to drain that side. I suppose it might help replacing
the valve closest to the heating circuit, possibly.

Unless of course I'm missing something (like a brain ;-p )

Having the damn things do what they are meant to would be far better :-)

Cheers,
     Webbo.

|-> -----Original Message-----
|-> On Behalf Of Chris Hunter (home)
|-> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:39 AM
|-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
|->
|-> > I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd
|-> likely just end up with both of them leaking !
|->
|-> yep, of course, but at least you'd be able to use one to
|-> help replace the other, without having to drain the whole
|-> system and replace all the inhibitor - well, that was the
|-> idea, anyway !
|->
|-> Chris
|->
|->
|->
|-> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:26 AM, WEBBO wrote:
|-> >
|-> >
|-> > I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd
|-> likely just end up
|-> > with both of them leaking !
|-> >
|-> > The pump valve was trully amazing, I could hear it
|-> bleeding air past
|-> > the
|-> >
|-> > screw as I refilled the tank - just like it had turned
|-> into an air
|-> > bleed
|-> >
|-> > valve <roll eyes>
|-> > I've stuck some plumbers mate on this one - If I have to
|-> change it at
|-> > least I can turn the valve off the other end of the pump.
|-> And then of
|-> > course wait for that one to leak...
|-> > The other one stopped leaking once turned back to the on
|-> position again.
|-> >
|-> > My feeling is, either the rubber O rings are hardening
|-> with the heat,
|-> > or they are deforming / sticking to the shaft, so once
|-> you move it it
|-> > allows water to pass.
|-> > I don't think it has anything to do with hard water, but
|-> I could be
|-> > wrong.
|-> > Having taken the immersion heater out of the tank it
|-> wasn't all scaled
|-> > up or anything, and the inside of the tank looked pretty clean.
|-> > Don't forget that it is the heating circuit, so has furnox in it.
|-> >
|-> > Now here is another thought - just how much fernox have
|-> you other guys
|-> > put in your ch / ufh systems ?
|-> > Can you put too much in ?
|-> >
|-> > Cheers,
|-> > Webbo.

This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential
and/or privileged information or information otherwise protected
from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please
notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any
attachments and do not use it for any purpose or disclose its
content to any person, but delete this message and any attachments
from your system. Astrium disclaims any and all liability if this
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Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259
Registered Office:
Gunnels Wood Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2AS, England

we bought some Plumbers Mait a while back, and on opening it sometime
later found it had shrivelled a lot & become inflexible ... IIRC (?)
it we revived it by adding white spirit & leaving it a while ...

Chris



On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Peter and Jane
<pandj.munnoch@...> wrote:
> Hi John
> I am still in boat mode and am relieved from house duties....
> Sea cocks on boats are kept watertight by the use of a thick water resistant
> grease.
> Wonder if this would work for your valves?
> Better than plumbers mait, assuming we are talking moving parts here.
> Just a thought.
> Rgds
> Peter

Maybe use a gas valve instead of one designated for water? e.g.
http://www.bes.co.uk/products/029.asp#9619

I'd guess these are made to a higher standard than the cheapo water
ones - leaks past the seat, or through the gland will have significant
consequences in gas service. They dodn't seem that much more expensive
either. Probably worth checking they are suitable for water - the
description just says "Natural Gas, LPG and fluids" and "fluid" can
mean a liquid or a gas.

Upper temp limit is stated as 80degC - maybe a little low for a thermal store?

Another alternative are industrial ball valves. I used to use Oliver
ones in a previous
job(http://www.valves.co.uk/template.php?site=ovl&page=ovl/products).
Shame their standard connections don't match up with metric copper
pipe :-(
From memory they were ~£20 a pop, but that sounds a bit low now.

I'm sure there's other mfrs.

HTH,

Tim.


On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Peter and Jane
<pandj.munnoch@...> wrote:
> Hi John
> I am still in boat mode and am relieved from house duties....
> Sea cocks on boats are kept watertight by the use of a thick water resistant
grease.
> Wonder if this would work for your valves?
> Better than plumbers mait, assuming we are talking moving parts here.
> Just a thought.
> Rgds
> Peter
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: WEBSTER, Edward ( known as John)
>  To: UK_Selfbuild@...
>  Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:26 AM
>  Subject: RE: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
>
>
>
>
>
>  I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd likely just
>  end up with both of them leaking !
>
>  The pump valve was trully amazing, I could hear it bleeding air past the
>
>  screw as I refilled the tank - just like it had turned into an air bleed
>
>  valve <roll eyes>
>  I've stuck some plumbers mate on this one - If I have to change it at
>  least I can turn the valve off the other end of the pump. And then of
>  course wait for that one to leak...
>  The other one stopped leaking once turned back to the on position again.
>
>  My feeling is, either the rubber O rings are hardening with the heat,
>  or they are deforming / sticking to the shaft, so once you move it it
>  allows water to pass.
>  I don't think it has anything to do with hard water, but I could be
>  wrong.
>  Having taken the immersion heater out of the tank it wasn't all scaled
>  up
>  or anything, and the inside of the tank looked pretty clean.
>  Don't forget that it is the heating circuit, so has furnox in it.
>
>  Now here is another thought - just how much fernox have you other guys
>  put
>  in your ch / ufh systems ?
>  Can you put too much in ?
>
>  Cheers,
>  Webbo.
>
>  |-> -----Original Message-----
>  |-> On Behalf Of Chris Hunter (home)
>  |-> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:00 AM
>  |-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
>  |->
>  |-> ouch, disappointing ... two thoughts - have two in series
>  |-> always (more to go wrong, of course, but at least the leaks
>  |-> are not floods, so one can help while changing the other),
>  |-> and cycle them all every so often,
>  |-> maybe every thee months ? And a third - maybe a filter might help,
>  |-> and/or one of those anti-hardness depositation devices ...
>  |->
>  |-> NB: some have said leaks after use do go away quite often -
>  |-> sounds like the seal goes stiff, or gets slightly distorted
>  |-> or something ?
>  |->
>  |-> Chris
>  |->
>  |->
>  |->
>  |-> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:49 AM, WEBBO wrote:
>  |-> >
>  |-> >
>  |-> > I had cause to drain down our thermal store yesterday, to
>  |-> replace the
>  |-> > immersion that had sprung a leak (crack opened up in pressing).
>  |-> > Having closed all the isolation valves for the various
>  |-> heating loops,
>  |-> > and opened the drain cock, I noticed that 1 of the 2 22mm
>  |-> lever ball
>  |-> > valves were leaking, and 1 of the 2 peglar pump isolators
>  |-> was leaking
>  |-> > too.
>  |-> > All of them through the screw / operating shaft hole.
>  |-> >
>  |-> > I am really beginning to hate these things !
>  |-> > Is there any make of these that do not leak ?!?
>  |-> >
>  |-> > To replace these would be a major PITA.
>  |-> > Is there any way of either helping these things seal, or possibly
>  |-> > prolonging the life of those I have that don't leak yet :-/
>  |-> >
>  |-> > Oh, I should add, all of these are on heating circuits.
>  |-> The 3 22mm
>  |-> > ball valves that are on the water header tank (and so
>  |-> don't get hot)
>  |-> > work just fine.
>  |-> >
>  |-> > rant over ;-)
>  |-> >
>  |-> > Cheers,
>  |-> > Webbo
>  |->
>  |->
>
>  This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential
>  and/or privileged information or information otherwise protected
>  from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please
>  notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any
>  attachments and do not use it for any purpose or disclose its
>  content to any person, but delete this message and any attachments
>  from your system. Astrium disclaims any and all liability if this
>  email transmission was virus corrupted, altered or falsified.
>  -o-
>  Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259
>  Registered Office:
>  Gunnels Wood Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2AS, England
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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>
>
>

I agree Peter,
grease would have been better. I went in search of my petroleum grease
used for putting on vehicle O rings, but couldn't find it. I knew where
the plumbers mate was, so that is what I used ;-)
I guess next time I may have to replace the valve.

Oh, I also replaced the valve that had started to leak under the sink
(I posted about a number of weeks back).
I asked the plumber merchant for the best valve they had, and it looks
identical to the one I took out...

p.s. nice weather to be playing about on a boat ;-)

|-> -----Original Message-----
|-> On Behalf Of Peter and Jane
|-> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:43 AM
|-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
|->
|-> Hi John
|-> I am still in boat mode and am relieved from house duties....
|-> Sea cocks on boats are kept watertight by the use of a
|-> thick water resistant grease.
|-> Wonder if this would work for your valves?
|-> Better than plumbers mait, assuming we are talking moving
|-> parts here.
|-> Just a thought.
|-> Rgds
|-> Peter
|->   ----- Original Message -----
|->   From: WEBSTER, Edward ( known as John)
|->   Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:26 AM
|->   Subject: RE: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
|->
|->   I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd likely just
|->   end up with both of them leaking !
|->
|->   The pump valve was trully amazing, I could hear it
|-> bleeding air past the
|->
|->   screw as I refilled the tank - just like it had turned
|-> into an air bleed
|->
|->   valve <roll eyes>
|->   I've stuck some plumbers mate on this one - If I have to
|-> change it at
|->   least I can turn the valve off the other end of the pump.
|-> And then of
|->   course wait for that one to leak...
|->   The other one stopped leaking once turned back to the on
|-> position again.
|->
|->   My feeling is, either the rubber O rings are hardening
|-> with the heat,
|->   or they are deforming / sticking to the shaft, so once
|-> you move it it
|->   allows water to pass.
|->   I don't think it has anything to do with hard water, but
|-> I could be
|->   wrong.
|->   Having taken the immersion heater out of the tank it
|-> wasn't all scaled
|->   up
|->   or anything, and the inside of the tank looked pretty clean.
|->   Don't forget that it is the heating circuit, so has furnox in it.
|->
|->   Now here is another thought - just how much fernox have
|-> you other guys
|->   put
|->   in your ch / ufh systems ?
|->   Can you put too much in ?

This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential
and/or privileged information or information otherwise protected
from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please
notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any
attachments and do not use it for any purpose or disclose its
content to any person, but delete this message and any attachments
from your system. Astrium disclaims any and all liability if this
email transmission was virus corrupted, altered or falsified.
-o-
Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259
Registered Office:
Gunnels Wood Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2AS, England

aye ... was assuming no header tank (thermal stores don't have to have
them - some have just an expansion tank on top) - there are so many
variations on these things - some thermal stores have HE coils, some
have UFH & tank as one ... some are pressurised, some are vented ...
list is endless !

Chris


On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:54 AM, WEBSTER, Edward ( known as John)
<edward.webster@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Chris,
> it doesn't really help.
> Replacing either will have pressure behind it from one side.
> Remember there is a head of pressure in the system.
> Shutting all the valves off to the heating circuits still leaves
> the cold feed and vent to the tank, so the only way to relieve
> the pressure is to drain that side. I suppose it might help replacing
> the valve closest to the heating circuit, possibly.
>
> Unless of course I'm missing something (like a brain ;-p )
>
> Having the damn things do what they are meant to would be far better :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Webbo.
>
> |-> -----Original Message-----
> |-> On Behalf Of Chris Hunter (home)
> |-> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:39 AM
> |-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
> |->
> |-> > I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd
> |-> likely just end up with both of them leaking !
> |->
> |-> yep, of course, but at least you'd be able to use one to
> |-> help replace the other, without having to drain the whole
> |-> system and replace all the inhibitor - well, that was the
> |-> idea, anyway !
> |->
> |-> Chris
> |->
> |->
> |->
> |-> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:26 AM, WEBBO wrote:
> |-> >
> |-> >
> |-> > I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd
> |-> likely just end up
> |-> > with both of them leaking !
> |-> >
> |-> > The pump valve was trully amazing, I could hear it
> |-> bleeding air past
> |-> > the
> |-> >
> |-> > screw as I refilled the tank - just like it had turned
> |-> into an air
> |-> > bleed
> |-> >
> |-> > valve <roll eyes>
> |-> > I've stuck some plumbers mate on this one - If I have to
> |-> change it at
> |-> > least I can turn the valve off the other end of the pump.
> |-> And then of
> |-> > course wait for that one to leak...
> |-> > The other one stopped leaking once turned back to the on
> |-> position again.
> |-> >
> |-> > My feeling is, either the rubber O rings are hardening
> |-> with the heat,
> |-> > or they are deforming / sticking to the shaft, so once
> |-> you move it it
> |-> > allows water to pass.
> |-> > I don't think it has anything to do with hard water, but
> |-> I could be
> |-> > wrong.
> |-> > Having taken the immersion heater out of the tank it
> |-> wasn't all scaled
> |-> > up or anything, and the inside of the tank looked pretty clean.
> |-> > Don't forget that it is the heating circuit, so has furnox in it.
> |-> >
> |-> > Now here is another thought - just how much fernox have
> |-> you other guys
> |-> > put in your ch / ufh systems ?
> |-> > Can you put too much in ?
> |-> >
> |-> > Cheers,
> |-> > Webbo.
>
> This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential
> and/or privileged information or information otherwise protected
> from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any
> attachments and do not use it for any purpose or disclose its
> content to any person, but delete this message and any attachments
> from your system. Astrium disclaims any and all liability if this
> email transmission was virus corrupted, altered or falsified.
> -o-
> Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259
> Registered Office:
> Gunnels Wood Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2AS, England
>
>

>it doesn't really help ...

um, yep, the brain fade's here, I think !

Chris



On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Chris Hunter (home)
<chris.cjcmhunter@...> wrote:
> aye ... was assuming no header tank (thermal stores don't have to have
> them - some have just an expansion tank on top) - there are so many
> variations on these things - some thermal stores have HE coils, some
> have UFH & tank as one ... some are pressurised, some are vented ...
> list is endless !
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:54 AM, WEBSTER, Edward ( known as John)
> <edward.webster@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Chris,
>> it doesn't really help.
>> Replacing either will have pressure behind it from one side.
>> Remember there is a head of pressure in the system.
>> Shutting all the valves off to the heating circuits still leaves
>> the cold feed and vent to the tank, so the only way to relieve
>> the pressure is to drain that side. I suppose it might help replacing
>> the valve closest to the heating circuit, possibly.
>>
>> Unless of course I'm missing something (like a brain ;-p )
>>
>> Having the damn things do what they are meant to would be far better :-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Webbo.
>>
>> |-> -----Original Message-----
>> |-> On Behalf Of Chris Hunter (home)
>> |-> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:39 AM
>> |-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
>> |->
>> |-> > I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd
>> |-> likely just end up with both of them leaking !
>> |->
>> |-> yep, of course, but at least you'd be able to use one to
>> |-> help replace the other, without having to drain the whole
>> |-> system and replace all the inhibitor - well, that was the
>> |-> idea, anyway !
>> |->
>> |-> Chris
>> |->
>> |->
>> |->
>> |-> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:26 AM, WEBBO wrote:
>> |-> >
>> |-> >
>> |-> > I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd
>> |-> likely just end up
>> |-> > with both of them leaking !
>> |-> >
>> |-> > The pump valve was trully amazing, I could hear it
>> |-> bleeding air past
>> |-> > the
>> |-> >
>> |-> > screw as I refilled the tank - just like it had turned
>> |-> into an air
>> |-> > bleed
>> |-> >
>> |-> > valve <roll eyes>
>> |-> > I've stuck some plumbers mate on this one - If I have to
>> |-> change it at
>> |-> > least I can turn the valve off the other end of the pump.
>> |-> And then of
>> |-> > course wait for that one to leak...
>> |-> > The other one stopped leaking once turned back to the on
>> |-> position again.
>> |-> >
>> |-> > My feeling is, either the rubber O rings are hardening
>> |-> with the heat,
>> |-> > or they are deforming / sticking to the shaft, so once
>> |-> you move it it
>> |-> > allows water to pass.
>> |-> > I don't think it has anything to do with hard water, but
>> |-> I could be
>> |-> > wrong.
>> |-> > Having taken the immersion heater out of the tank it
>> |-> wasn't all scaled
>> |-> > up or anything, and the inside of the tank looked pretty clean.
>> |-> > Don't forget that it is the heating circuit, so has furnox in it.
>> |-> >
>> |-> > Now here is another thought - just how much fernox have
>> |-> you other guys
>> |-> > put in your ch / ufh systems ?
>> |-> > Can you put too much in ?
>> |-> >
>> |-> > Cheers,
>> |-> > Webbo.
>>
>> This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential
>> and/or privileged information or information otherwise protected
>> from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please
>> notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any
>> attachments and do not use it for any purpose or disclose its
>> content to any person, but delete this message and any attachments
>> from your system. Astrium disclaims any and all liability if this
>> email transmission was virus corrupted, altered or falsified.
>> -o-
>> Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259
>> Registered Office:
>> Gunnels Wood Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2AS, England
>>
>>
>

Tim,
you would think so, but sadly not.
The 22mm valves we have are exactly the same as the 22mm gas valve
we also have, the only difference is the gas one has a yellow handle...
Ours look exactly like the drawing at the bottom of the page for the
compression lever valves.

I might have to look out details of those Oliver valves, thanks.

Our TS is set to 80deg C.
I think it is the heat on these that has made the O rings leak.
I can't explain why the 15mm one on the cold feed to the wash basin
leaked though, unless that was due to limescale.

Its a shame, because I have always used ball valves in preference to
gate valves since the early 90s, and never had a problem with them
until now.

Speaking with a relative who was a plumber (now retired) he said the
cheapo ones always leak. Just how you find out which ones are the best
seems difficult, because I thought I had brought the best for these 22mm
ones.

If I can find something like silicone grease or spray that would help
revive the seals, or maybe spray it on them before moving in the first
place, I'd prefer that than having to replace them all.

Cheers,
     Webbo.

|-> -----Original Message-----
|-> On Behalf Of Tim Hawes
|-> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:56 AM
|-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
|->
|-> Maybe use a gas valve instead of one designated for water? e.g.
|-> http://www.bes.co.uk/products/029.asp#9619
|->
|-> I'd guess these are made to a higher standard than the
|-> cheapo water ones - leaks past the seat, or through the
|-> gland will have significant consequences in gas service.
|-> They dodn't seem that much more expensive either. Probably
|-> worth checking they are suitable for water - the
|-> description just says "Natural Gas, LPG and fluids" and
|-> "fluid" can mean a liquid or a gas.
|->
|-> Upper temp limit is stated as 80degC - maybe a little low
|-> for a thermal store?
|->
|-> Another alternative are industrial ball valves. I used to
|-> use Oliver ones in a previous
|-> job(http://www.valves.co.uk/template.php?site=ovl&page=ovl/p
|-> roducts).
|-> Shame their standard connections don't match up with metric
|-> copper pipe :-( From memory they were ~£20 a pop, but that
|-> sounds a bit low now.
|->
|-> I'm sure there's other mfrs.
|->
|-> HTH,
|->
|-> Tim.
|->
|->
|-> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Peter and Jane
|-> <pandj.munnoch@...> wrote:
|-> > Hi John
|-> > I am still in boat mode and am relieved from house duties....
|-> > Sea cocks on boats are kept watertight by the use of a
|-> thick water resistant grease.
|-> > Wonder if this would work for your valves?
|-> > Better than plumbers mait, assuming we are talking moving
|-> parts here.
|-> > Just a thought.
|-> > Rgds
|-> > Peter
|-> >  ----- Original Message -----
|-> >  From: WEBSTER, Edward ( known as John)
|-> >  To: UK_Selfbuild@...
|-> >  Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:26 AM
|-> >  Subject: RE: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
|-> >
|-> >
|-> >
|-> >
|-> >
|-> >  I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd likely just
|-> >  end up with both of them leaking !
|-> >
|-> >  The pump valve was trully amazing, I could hear it
|-> bleeding air past
|-> > the
|-> >
|-> >  screw as I refilled the tank - just like it had turned
|-> into an air
|-> > bleed
|-> >
|-> >  valve <roll eyes>
|-> >  I've stuck some plumbers mate on this one - If I have to
|-> change it at
|-> >  least I can turn the valve off the other end of the
|-> pump. And then of
|-> >  course wait for that one to leak...
|-> >  The other one stopped leaking once turned back to the on
|-> position again.
|-> >
|-> >  My feeling is, either the rubber O rings are hardening
|-> with the heat,
|-> >  or they are deforming / sticking to the shaft, so once
|-> you move it it
|-> >  allows water to pass.
|-> >  I don't think it has anything to do with hard water, but
|-> I could be
|-> >  wrong.
|-> >  Having taken the immersion heater out of the tank it wasn't all
|-> > scaled
|-> >  up
|-> >  or anything, and the inside of the tank looked pretty clean.
|-> >  Don't forget that it is the heating circuit, so has furnox in it.
|-> >
|-> >  Now here is another thought - just how much fernox have
|-> you other
|-> > guys
|-> >  put
|-> >  in your ch / ufh systems ?
|-> >  Can you put too much in ?
|-> >
|-> >  Cheers,
|-> >  Webbo.
|-> >
|-> >  |-> -----Original Message-----
|-> >  |-> On Behalf Of Chris Hunter (home)
|-> >  |-> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:00 AM
|-> >  |-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
|-> >  |->
|-> >  |-> ouch, disappointing ... two thoughts - have two in series
|-> >  |-> always (more to go wrong, of course, but at least the leaks
|-> >  |-> are not floods, so one can help while changing the other),
|-> >  |-> and cycle them all every so often,
|-> >  |-> maybe every thee months ? And a third - maybe a filter might
|-> > help,
|-> >  |-> and/or one of those anti-hardness depositation devices ...
|-> >  |->
|-> >  |-> NB: some have said leaks after use do go away quite often -
|-> >  |-> sounds like the seal goes stiff, or gets slightly distorted
|-> >  |-> or something ?
|-> >  |->
|-> >  |-> Chris
|-> >  |->
|-> >  |->
|-> >  |->
|-> >  |-> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:49 AM, WEBBO wrote:
|-> >  |-> >
|-> >  |-> >
|-> >  |-> > I had cause to drain down our thermal store yesterday, to
|-> >  |-> replace the
|-> >  |-> > immersion that had sprung a leak (crack opened up
|-> in pressing).
|-> >  |-> > Having closed all the isolation valves for the various
|-> >  |-> heating loops,
|-> >  |-> > and opened the drain cock, I noticed that 1 of the 2 22mm
|-> >  |-> lever ball
|-> >  |-> > valves were leaking, and 1 of the 2 peglar pump isolators
|-> >  |-> was leaking
|-> >  |-> > too.
|-> >  |-> > All of them through the screw / operating shaft hole.
|-> >  |-> >
|-> >  |-> > I am really beginning to hate these things !
|-> >  |-> > Is there any make of these that do not leak ?!?
|-> >  |-> >
|-> >  |-> > To replace these would be a major PITA.
|-> >  |-> > Is there any way of either helping these things seal, or
|-> > possibly
|-> >  |-> > prolonging the life of those I have that don't leak yet :-/
|-> >  |-> >
|-> >  |-> > Oh, I should add, all of these are on heating circuits.
|-> >  |-> The 3 22mm
|-> >  |-> > ball valves that are on the water header tank (and so
|-> >  |-> don't get hot)
|-> >  |-> > work just fine.
|-> >  |-> >
|-> >  |-> > rant over ;-)
|-> >  |-> >
|-> >  |-> > Cheers,
|-> >  |-> > Webbo
|-> >  |->
|-> >  |->
|-> >
|-> >  This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential
|-> >  and/or privileged information or information otherwise protected
|-> >  from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please
|-> >  notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any
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To contact me direct please email: Rick_Hughes@...

John
How about contacting the manufacturer?
Presumeably it is the stem seal that leaks. Used to be stuffed with hemp and
Boss White (I think). Modern approach might be to use PTFE tape, or PTFE O rings
in place of rubber. How about silicone grease?
Conclusion...talk to someone who knows (or should know)
Rgds
Peter
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: WEBSTER, Edward ( known as John)
   To: UK_Selfbuild@...
   Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 10:08 AM
   Subject: RE: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !





   Tim,
   you would think so, but sadly not.
   The 22mm valves we have are exactly the same as the 22mm gas valve
   we also have, the only difference is the gas one has a yellow handle...
   Ours look exactly like the drawing at the bottom of the page for the
   compression lever valves.

   I might have to look out details of those Oliver valves, thanks.

   Our TS is set to 80deg C.
   I think it is the heat on these that has made the O rings leak.
   I can't explain why the 15mm one on the cold feed to the wash basin
   leaked though, unless that was due to limescale.

   Its a shame, because I have always used ball valves in preference to
   gate valves since the early 90s, and never had a problem with them
   until now.

   Speaking with a relative who was a plumber (now retired) he said the
   cheapo ones always leak. Just how you find out which ones are the best
   seems difficult, because I thought I had brought the best for these 22mm
   ones.

   If I can find something like silicone grease or spray that would help
   revive the seals, or maybe spray it on them before moving in the first
   place, I'd prefer that than having to replace them all.

   Cheers,
   Webbo.

   |-> -----Original Message-----
   |-> On Behalf Of Tim Hawes
   |-> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:56 AM
   |-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
   |->
   |-> Maybe use a gas valve instead of one designated for water? e.g.
   |-> http://www.bes.co.uk/products/029.asp#9619
   |->
   |-> I'd guess these are made to a higher standard than the
   |-> cheapo water ones - leaks past the seat, or through the
   |-> gland will have significant consequences in gas service.
   |-> They dodn't seem that much more expensive either. Probably
   |-> worth checking they are suitable for water - the
   |-> description just says "Natural Gas, LPG and fluids" and
   |-> "fluid" can mean a liquid or a gas.
   |->
   |-> Upper temp limit is stated as 80degC - maybe a little low
   |-> for a thermal store?
   |->
   |-> Another alternative are industrial ball valves. I used to
   |-> use Oliver ones in a previous
   |-> job(http://www.valves.co.uk/template.php?site=ovl&page=ovl/p
   |-> roducts).
   |-> Shame their standard connections don't match up with metric
   |-> copper pipe :-( From memory they were ~£20 a pop, but that
   |-> sounds a bit low now.
   |->
   |-> I'm sure there's other mfrs.
   |->
   |-> HTH,
   |->
   |-> Tim.
   |->
   |->
   |-> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Peter and Jane
   |-> <pandj.munnoch@...> wrote:
   |-> > Hi John
   |-> > I am still in boat mode and am relieved from house duties....
   |-> > Sea cocks on boats are kept watertight by the use of a
   |-> thick water resistant grease.
   |-> > Wonder if this would work for your valves?
   |-> > Better than plumbers mait, assuming we are talking moving
   |-> parts here.
   |-> > Just a thought.
   |-> > Rgds
   |-> > Peter
   |-> >  ----- Original Message -----
   |-> >  From: WEBSTER, Edward ( known as John)
   |-> >  To: UK_Selfbuild@...
   |-> >  Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:26 AM
   |-> >  Subject: RE: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
   |-> >
   |-> >
   |-> >
   |-> >
   |-> >
   |-> >  I think to put 2 in series is a waste of time - I'd likely just
   |-> >  end up with both of them leaking !
   |-> >
   |-> >  The pump valve was trully amazing, I could hear it
   |-> bleeding air past
   |-> > the
   |-> >
   |-> >  screw as I refilled the tank - just like it had turned
   |-> into an air
   |-> > bleed
   |-> >
   |-> >  valve <roll eyes>
   |-> >  I've stuck some plumbers mate on this one - If I have to
   |-> change it at
   |-> >  least I can turn the valve off the other end of the
   |-> pump. And then of
   |-> >  course wait for that one to leak...
   |-> >  The other one stopped leaking once turned back to the on
   |-> position again.
   |-> >
   |-> >  My feeling is, either the rubber O rings are hardening
   |-> with the heat,
   |-> >  or they are deforming / sticking to the shaft, so once
   |-> you move it it
   |-> >  allows water to pass.
   |-> >  I don't think it has anything to do with hard water, but
   |-> I could be
   |-> >  wrong.
   |-> >  Having taken the immersion heater out of the tank it wasn't all
   |-> > scaled
   |-> >  up
   |-> >  or anything, and the inside of the tank looked pretty clean.
   |-> >  Don't forget that it is the heating circuit, so has furnox in it.
   |-> >
   |-> >  Now here is another thought - just how much fernox have
   |-> you other
   |-> > guys
   |-> >  put
   |-> >  in your ch / ufh systems ?
   |-> >  Can you put too much in ?
   |-> >
   |-> >  Cheers,
   |-> >  Webbo.
   |-> >
   |-> >  |-> -----Original Message-----
   |-> >  |-> On Behalf Of Chris Hunter (home)
   |-> >  |-> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:00 AM
   |-> >  |-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild plumbing - isolation valves again !
   |-> >  |->
   |-> >  |-> ouch, disappointing ... two thoughts - have two in series
   |-> >  |-> always (more to go wrong, of course, but at least the leaks
   |-> >  |-> are not floods, so one can help while changing the other),
   |-> >  |-> and cycle them all every so often,
   |-> >  |-> maybe every thee months ? And a third - maybe a filter might
   |-> > help,
   |-> >  |-> and/or one of those anti-hardness depositation devices ...
   |-> >  |->
   |-> >  |-> NB: some have said leaks after use do go away quite often -
   |-> >  |-> sounds like the seal goes stiff, or gets slightly distorted
   |-> >  |-> or something ?
   |-> >  |->
   |-> >  |-> Chris
   |-> >  |->
   |-> >  |->
   |-> >  |->
   |-> >  |-> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:49 AM, WEBBO wrote:
   |-> >  |-> >
   |-> >  |-> >
   |-> >  |-> > I had cause to drain down our thermal store yesterday, to
   |-> >  |-> replace the
   |-> >  |-> > immersion that had sprung a leak (crack opened up
   |-> in pressing).
   |-> >  |-> > Having closed all the isolation valves for the various
   |-> >  |-> heating loops,
   |-> >  |-> > and opened the drain cock, I noticed that 1 of the 2 22mm
   |-> >  |-> lever ball
   |-> >  |-> > valves were leaking, and 1 of the 2 peglar pump isolators
   |-> >  |-> was leaking
   |-> >  |-> > too.
   |-> >  |-> > All of them through the screw / operating shaft hole.
   |-> >  |-> >
   |-> >  |-> > I am really beginning to hate these things !
   |-> >  |-> > Is there any make of these that do not leak ?!?
   |-> >  |-> >
   |-> >  |-> > To replace these would be a major PITA.
   |-> >  |-> > Is there any way of either helping these things seal, or
   |-> > possibly
   |-> >  |-> > prolonging the life of those I have that don't leak yet :-/
   |-> >  |-> >
   |-> >  |-> > Oh, I should add, all of these are on heating circuits.
   |-> >  |-> The 3 22mm
   |-> >  |-> > ball valves that are on the water header tank (and so
   |-> >  |-> don't get hot)
   |-> >  |-> > work just fine.
   |-> >  |-> >
   |-> >  |-> > rant over ;-)
   |-> >  |-> >
   |-> >  |-> > Cheers,
   |-> >  |-> > Webbo
   |-> >  |->
   |-> >  |->
   |-> >
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim -

meant to mention - how about the first of these ... with or with screw-cap,
mounted top-side, with cord-side almost flush :

http://www.wydels.co.uk/product.asp?typeID=25&subID=51&prodID=814

2A mini pull-switch ... £3.39 incl'VAT

http://www.ryness.co.uk/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=2054

Mini pull-switch with fixing ... £0.99 incl'VAT

Chris


> > > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Tim Hawes <timsyahoo@> wrote:
> > >> LOL - snap! I'm thinking of the same. I'm also looking at mounting the
> > >> switch in the attic and only having a small (3mm?) hole through the
> > >> ceiling for the pull-cord. What I'm really after is a small chrome or
> > >> white bezel to pass the cord through to neaten-up the hole, something
> > >> like the chrome surround for some panel-mount LEDs. They've not been
> > >> too easy to find, so it might have to be a shiny washer glued up there
> > >> instead :-/
> > >> TLC has some white, brass & chrome pull-cord units:
> > >>
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Wiring_Accessories_Menu_Index/Pull_Cords_\
All/index.html
> > >> IME the cords are quite easy to replace if you fancied a non-white one.
> > >> HTH,
> > >> Tim

More slab problems!

Having sorted the flatness problem last month our floor fitter is still unhappy
that the moisture levels in our slab are too high: 4-5%

For gluing a timber floor down this should be below 3%, but we're at a loss of
what to do:  the ground floor slab was poured about 4 years ago and has been
weathertight for 2 years and has had the underfloor heating on for the last 6
months.  The upstairs one hasn't been down as long but is surrounded by warm air
(and has underfloor heating in it).

What more can we do!?

Well, we put a dehumidifier in one room and blocked the door opening and ran it
for a week - extracted a couple of gallons of water and got a moisture reading
of between 4 and 4.5%.  At this rate I'll be spending more on dehumidifier hire
+ power than I did on the slab itself!

So the alternative is to seal the floor before laying the timber but this too is
expensive so I need to get it right.  Does anyone have any
recommendations/opinions on the products out there?  We've got the glue - Sika
T54 - but the corresponding Sika primer is just about the most expensive one out
there - c.£10psqm so I'd rather use a different one.  Any suggestions on
compatibility?

Cheers

Pete

>1500 is a LOT of cycles...

PS: the JL web-site gives figures for typical annual power consumption -
284.1kWhr per annum at 3.92kWhr/cycle for the £399 machine => 72.5 cycles per
annum ... and 160.9kWhr per annum at 2.4kWhr/cycle => 67 cycles per annum for
the £599 machine ...

which either means the  cheaper machine needs some things to be dried twice, or 
the more expensive machines loses some clothes so fewer cycles are needed ...
(!)

either way, about 70 cycles per annum is thought typical ...

Chris

with the UFH on, seems very odd ... maybe there's a damp problem ? ...
maybe the meter's not right ? ... maybe the fitter has shares in Sika
? ... how about carpet, instead ?

Chris


On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Peter Church <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
>
> More slab problems!
>
> Having sorted the flatness problem last month our floor fitter is still
> unhappy that the moisture levels in our slab are too high: 4-5%
>
> For gluing a timber floor down this should be below 3%, but we're at a loss
> of what to do: the ground floor slab was poured about 4 years ago and has
> been weathertight for 2 years and has had the underfloor heating on for the
> last 6 months. The upstairs one hasn't been down as long but is surrounded
> by warm air (and has underfloor heating in it).
>
> What more can we do!?
>
> Well, we put a dehumidifier in one room and blocked the door opening and ran
> it for a week - extracted a couple of gallons of water and got a moisture
> reading of between 4 and 4.5%. At this rate I'll be spending more on
> dehumidifier hire + power than I did on the slab itself!
>
> So the alternative is to seal the floor before laying the timber but this
> too is expensive so I need to get it right. Does anyone have any
> recommendations/opinions on the products out there? We've got the glue -
> Sika T54 - but the corresponding Sika primer is just about the most
> expensive one out there - c.£10psqm so I'd rather use a different one. Any
> suggestions on compatibility?
>
> Cheers
>
> Pete
>
>

>with the UFH on, seems very odd ...

                         Yes I'm surprised by this.  Not running at full
occupancy levels yet but circulating at sensible temperatures



>maybe there's a damp problem ? ...

                         Downstairs maybe, but has a full radon barrier
lapped and taped.  Site drains only went in 2 months ago, so we may see a
bit of improvement from dampness around the site, but it shouldn't be
getting in

                         Upstairs unlikely, although we did have an UFH leak,
which took a while to locate and fix, but would only explain a reasonably
localised damp problem (+ that was fixed 3-4 months ago)


>maybe the meter's not right ?

                         We've tried 3 different meters and all more or less
concur

... maybe the fitter has shares in Sika

                         He's suggesting a different product - SealTight 70
but can't find much info on that so he probably makes it up in his shed.


? ... how about carpet, instead ?

                         What do I do with the 150m2 of timber floor I've got
sitting around the house?!


Thanks

Pete




___



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How are you measuring the moisture content?

Have you tried putting down a 1m sq of polythene taped at the sides
overnight and seen if any water condenses?

I find it difficult to believe there is a 5 % mc

I suspect that it is possibly being read by a resistance meter rather
than a speedy moisture meter which measures the actual water by volume
of acetelyne gas production

chris
On 1 Jun 2009, at 13:37, Peter Church wrote:

>
>
> More slab problems!
>
> Having sorted the flatness problem last month our floor fitter is
> still unhappy that the moisture levels in our slab are too high: 4-5%
>
> For gluing a timber floor down this should be below 3%, but we're at
> a loss of what to do: the ground floor slab was poured about 4 years
> ago and has been weathertight for 2 years and has had the underfloor
> heating on for the last 6 months. The upstairs one hasn't been down
> as long but is surrounded by warm air (and has underfloor heating in
> it).
>
> What more can we do!?
>
> Well, we put a dehumidifier in one room and blocked the door opening
> and ran it for a week - extracted a couple of gallons of water and
> got a moisture reading of between 4 and 4.5%. At this rate I'll be
> spending more on dehumidifier hire + power than I did on the slab
> itself!
>
> So the alternative is to seal the floor before laying the timber but
> this too is expensive so I need to get it right. Does anyone have
> any recommendations/opinions on the products out there? We've got
> the glue - Sika T54 - but the corresponding Sika primer is just
> about the most expensive one out there - c.£10psqm so I'd rather use
> a different one. Any suggestions on compatibility?
>
> Cheers
>
> Pete
>
>
>

Dr CJD George
Director
0208874203 (Answer 'phone/office)
07804801149 Mob (only for current contracts please)
mail@...





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hmm, is the place reasonably vented - if the heating was on only part
time, and the floor cooled, maybe it might attract condensation ?
Maybe things will have improved in this warm & dry spell we seem
suddenly to be having ?

Chris



On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Pete Church <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>with the UFH on, seems very odd ...
>
> Yes I'm surprised by this. Not running at full
> occupancy levels yet but circulating at sensible temperatures
>
>>maybe there's a damp problem ? ...
>
> Downstairs maybe, but has a full radon barrier
> lapped and taped. Site drains only went in 2 months ago, so we may see a
> bit of improvement from dampness around the site, but it shouldn't be
> getting in
>
> Upstairs unlikely, although we did have an UFH leak,
> which took a while to locate and fix, but would only explain a reasonably
> localised damp problem (+ that was fixed 3-4 months ago)
>
>>maybe the meter's not right ?
>
> We've tried 3 different meters and all more or less
> concur
>
> ... maybe the fitter has shares in Sika
>
> He's suggesting a different product - SealTight 70
> but can't find much info on that so he probably makes it up in his shed.
>
> ? ... how about carpet, instead ?
>
> What do I do with the 150m2 of timber floor I've got
> sitting around the house?!
>
> Thanks
>
> Pete
>
> ___
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Yes resistance meters.



First couple were like a multimeter with a 2 pronged attachment, the latest
one is one like this:



http://onsitetools.com/measuring/moisture/damp-meters/detail/CME4/



Haven’t tried the m2 of polythene, but I could have a go.  If there is no
condensation is that a good result?



Thanks



Pete



   _____

From: UK_Selfbuild@... [mailto:UK_Selfbuild@...]
On Behalf Of Christopher George
Sent: 01 June 2009 14:18
To: UK_Selfbuild@...
Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Concrete moisture and timber floors








How are you measuring the moisture content?

Have you tried putting down a 1m sq of polythene taped at the sides
overnight and seen if any water condenses?

I find it difficult to believe there is a 5 % mc

I suspect that it is possibly being read by a resistance meter rather
than a speedy moisture meter which measures the actual water by volume
of acetelyne gas production

chris
On 1 Jun 2009, at 13:37, Peter Church wrote:

>
>
> More slab problems!
>
> Having sorted the flatness problem last month our floor fitter is
> still unhappy that the moisture levels in our slab are too high: 4-5%
>
> For gluing a timber floor down this should be below 3%, but we're at
> a loss of what to do: the ground floor slab was poured about 4 years
> ago and has been weathertight for 2 years and has had the underfloor
> heating on for the last 6 months. The upstairs one hasn't been down
> as long but is surrounded by warm air (and has underfloor heating in
> it).
>
> What more can we do!?
>
> Well, we put a dehumidifier in one room and blocked the door opening
> and ran it for a week - extracted a couple of gallons of water and
> got a moisture reading of between 4 and 4.5%. At this rate I'll be
> spending more on dehumidifier hire + power than I did on the slab
> itself!
>
> So the alternative is to seal the floor before laying the timber but
> this too is expensive so I need to get it right. Does anyone have
> any recommendations/opinions on the products out there? We've got
> the glue - Sika T54 - but the corresponding Sika primer is just
> about the most expensive one out there - c.£10psqm so I'd rather use
> a different one. Any suggestions on compatibility?
>
> Cheers
>
> Pete
>
>
>

Dr CJD George
Director
0208874203 (Answer 'phone/office)
07804801149 Mob (only for current contracts please)
mail@.... <mailto:mail%40atics.co.uk> uk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]