Hi all



Coming out of my thermal store, I have a multitude of pipes.



Now, most of these I have insulated along the straight lengths, but there are

several "awkward" sections that I can't fit standard pipe insulation on, and

that are constantly radiating heat away.



For instance, near the top (ie hottest) part of the store, I have a pipe outlet

with large brass elbow that connects to a pump and mixer assembly. This whole

assembly of pipework/pump is always red hot - and must be wasting me quite a lot

of energy.



Have been looking at this Armaflex lagging tape:

http://www.pipelagging.com/pipe-insulation-lagging-tape-50mm-class-p-71.html



Assuming this is self-adhesive, I could wrap it round all the awkward bits of

pipework. It's only 3mm thick but guess I could wrap several layers round if

need be.



Does that look a suitable product, or has anyone used anything else with good

results ?



Cheers

Lee

I'd be tempted to go for one of the non-adhesive options (sheet or

roll) else it'll be a bugger if you ever have to fiddle with the

pipework.

Nick



Nick Laurie PC Repairs

nwlaurie@...

Skype: nicklaurie

01458 250834 and 07941 731056











On 6 Jul 2009, at 08:26, Lee wrote:



> Hi all

>

> Coming out of my thermal store, I have a multitude of pipes.

>

> Now, most of these I have insulated along the straight lengths, but

> there are several "awkward" sections that I can't fit standard pipe

> insulation on, and that are constantly radiating heat away.

>

> For instance, near the top (ie hottest) part of the store, I have a

> pipe outlet with large brass elbow that connects to a pump and mixer

> assembly. This whole assembly of pipework/pump is always red hot -

> and must be wasting me quite a lot of energy.

>

> Have been looking at this Armaflex lagging tape:

> http://www.pipelagging.com/pipe-insulation-lagging-tape-50mm-class-p-71.html

>

> Assuming this is self-adhesive, I could wrap it round all the

> awkward bits of pipework. It's only 3mm thick but guess I could wrap

> several layers round if need be.

>

> Does that look a suitable product, or has anyone used anything else

> with good results ?

>

> Cheers

> Lee

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> UK_Selfbuild-unsubscribe@...

> The FAQ is available at: http://www.borpin.co.uk

> To contact the moderator eMail: Rick_Hughes@...

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

if in a cupboard, maybe some baffles to stop air circulation could

work well ?   Air's a v.good insulator, so long as it isn't convecting

- when it becomes a v.bad insulator !



Chris





On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Lee<muddyboots@...> wrote:

>

>

> Hi all

>

> Coming out of my thermal store, I have a multitude of pipes.

>

> Now, most of these I have insulated along the straight lengths, but there

> are several "awkward" sections that I can't fit standard pipe insulation on,

> and that are constantly radiating heat away.

>

> For instance, near the top (ie hottest) part of the store, I have a pipe

> outlet with large brass elbow that connects to a pump and mixer assembly.

> This whole assembly of pipework/pump is always red hot - and must be wasting

> me quite a lot of energy.

>

> Have been looking at this Armaflex lagging tape:

> http://www.pipelagging.com/pipe-insulation-lagging-tape-50mm-class-p-71.html

>

> Assuming this is self-adhesive, I could wrap it round all the awkward bits

> of pipework. It's only 3mm thick but guess I could wrap several layers round

> if need be.

>

> Does that look a suitable product, or has anyone used anything else with

> good results ?

>

> Cheers

> Lee

>

>

Hello Lee

I've used Armaflex tape to stick Armaflex at joins. It only really sticks to

foam (like Armaflex or itself) not to pipes etc.

That means tou can sort-of get it off like a plaster cast, if you see what I

mean.

I think it is meant to be used in that way, not as insulation per se.

I also found Screwfix spiralwrap useful in places

https://www.screwfix.com/prods/62194/Plumbing/Copper-Tube-Accessories/Spiral-Wra\

p-50mm-x-7-5m

HTH

Peter

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: Nick Laurie

   To: UK_Selfbuild@...

   Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 8:36 AM

   Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Insulating "awkward" bits of pipework











   I'd be tempted to go for one of the non-adhesive options (sheet or

   roll) else it'll be a bugger if you ever have to fiddle with the

   pipework.

   Nick



   Nick Laurie PC Repairs

   nwlaurie@...

   Skype: nicklaurie

   01458 250834 and 07941 731056



   On 6 Jul 2009, at 08:26, Lee wrote:



   > Hi all

   >

   > Coming out of my thermal store, I have a multitude of pipes.

   >

   > Now, most of these I have insulated along the straight lengths, but

   > there are several "awkward" sections that I can't fit standard pipe

   > insulation on, and that are constantly radiating heat away.

   >

   > For instance, near the top (ie hottest) part of the store, I have a

   > pipe outlet with large brass elbow that connects to a pump and mixer

   > assembly. This whole assembly of pipework/pump is always red hot -

   > and must be wasting me quite a lot of energy.

   >

   > Have been looking at this Armaflex lagging tape:

   > http://www.pipelagging.com/pipe-insulation-lagging-tape-50mm-class-p-71.html

   >

   > Assuming this is self-adhesive, I could wrap it round all the

   > awkward bits of pipework. It's only 3mm thick but guess I could wrap

   > several layers round if need be.

   >

   > Does that look a suitable product, or has anyone used anything else

   > with good results ?

   >

   > Cheers

   > Lee

   >

   >

   >

   > ------------------------------------

   >

   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

   > UK_Selfbuild-unsubscribe@...

   > The FAQ is available at: http://www.borpin.co.uk

   > To contact the moderator eMail: Rick_Hughes@...

   > Yahoo! Groups Links

   >

   >

   >











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for all the replies.



I've ordered a couple of rolls of foam tape that looks like the Armaflex lagging

tape but is cheaper (and will no doubt be crap!).



The boiler room (where the store is) gets very hot inside; the surface of the

store itself is nice and cool so nothing much being lost there, so the room must

be being heated by the various "awkward" bits of hot pipework, and therefore

must be wasting quite a bit of energy.



The foam tape is only 3mm thick (as is the Armaflex stuff I believe) so I

suspect I'll want a few layers to keep the heat in properly.



Anyone know if CH pump bodies should be left exposed, or whether they can be

lagged too ?



Cheers

Lee



--- In UK_Selfbuild@..., "Peter and Jane" <pandj.munnoch@...>

wrote:

>

> Hello Lee

> I've used Armaflex tape to stick Armaflex at joins. It only really sticks to

foam (like Armaflex or itself) not to pipes etc.

> That means tou can sort-of get it off like a plaster cast, if you see what I

mean.

> I think it is meant to be used in that way, not as insulation per se.

> I also found Screwfix spiralwrap useful in places

>

https://www.screwfix.com/prods/62194/Plumbing/Copper-Tube-Accessories/Spiral-Wra\

p-50mm-x-7-5m

> HTH

> Peter

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: Nick Laurie

>   To: UK_Selfbuild@...

>   Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 8:36 AM

>   Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Insulating "awkward" bits of pipework

>

>

>

>

>

>   I'd be tempted to go for one of the non-adhesive options (sheet or

>   roll) else it'll be a bugger if you ever have to fiddle with the

>   pipework.

>   Nick

>

>   Nick Laurie PC Repairs

>   nwlaurie@...

>   Skype: nicklaurie

>   01458 250834 and 07941 731056

>

>   On 6 Jul 2009, at 08:26, Lee wrote:

>

>   > Hi all

>   >

>   > Coming out of my thermal store, I have a multitude of pipes.

>   >

>   > Now, most of these I have insulated along the straight lengths, but

>   > there are several "awkward" sections that I can't fit standard pipe

>   > insulation on, and that are constantly radiating heat away.

>   >

>   > For instance, near the top (ie hottest) part of the store, I have a

>   > pipe outlet with large brass elbow that connects to a pump and mixer

>   > assembly. This whole assembly of pipework/pump is always red hot -

>   > and must be wasting me quite a lot of energy.

>   >

>   > Have been looking at this Armaflex lagging tape:

>   >

http://www.pipelagging.com/pipe-insulation-lagging-tape-50mm-class-p-71.html

>   >

>   > Assuming this is self-adhesive, I could wrap it round all the

>   > awkward bits of pipework. It's only 3mm thick but guess I could wrap

>   > several layers round if need be.

>   >

>   > Does that look a suitable product, or has anyone used anything else

>   > with good results ?

>   >

>   > Cheers

>   > Lee

>   >

>   >

>   >

>   > ------------------------------------

>   >

>   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

>   > UK_Selfbuild-unsubscribe@...

>   > The FAQ is available at: http://www.borpin.co.uk

>   > To contact the moderator eMail: Rick_Hughes@...

>   > Yahoo! Groups Links

>   >

>   >

>   >

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

Box it (them?) in and stuff with rockwool?

Or use those DHW cylinder jackets you can buy in the DIY sheds and

wrap them around?



Cheers,



Tim.







On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Lee<muddyboots@...> wrote:

> Hi all

>

> Coming out of my thermal store, I have a multitude of pipes.

>

> Now, most of these I have insulated along the straight lengths, but there are

several "awkward" sections that I can't fit standard pipe insulation on, and

that are constantly radiating heat away.

>

> For instance, near the top (ie hottest) part of the store, I have a pipe

outlet with large brass elbow that connects to a pump and mixer assembly. This

whole assembly of pipework/pump is always red hot - and must be wasting me quite

a lot of energy.

>

> Have been looking at this Armaflex lagging tape:

> http://www.pipelagging.com/pipe-insulation-lagging-tape-50mm-class-p-71.html

>

> Assuming this is self-adhesive, I could wrap it round all the awkward bits of

pipework. It's only 3mm thick but guess I could wrap several layers round if

need be.

>

> Does that look a suitable product, or has anyone used anything else with good

results ?

>

> Cheers

> Lee

another idea is to wrap the joints in plastic bags, and then use

expanding foam.

I'm thinking the same way equipment is often boxed for transport -

put it in a box with bags around it, squirt the foam into the bags

and let it expand to fill the gap.



This is what I'd though of for our various joints and plate exchanger,

just not got around to doing it yet.



Cheers,

     Webbo.



|-> -----Original Message-----

|-> From: UK_Selfbuild@...

|-> [mailto:UK_Selfbuild@...] On Behalf Of Tim Hawes

|-> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 6:59 AM

|-> To: UK_Selfbuild@...

|-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Insulating "awkward" bits of pipework

|->

|-> Box it (them?) in and stuff with rockwool?

|-> Or use those DHW cylinder jackets you can buy in the DIY

|-> sheds and wrap them around?

|->

|-> Cheers,

|->

|-> Tim.

|->

|->

|->

|-> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Lee<muddyboots@...> wrote:

|-> > Hi all

|-> >

|-> > Coming out of my thermal store, I have a multitude of pipes.

|-> >

|-> > Now, most of these I have insulated along the straight

|-> lengths, but there are several "awkward" sections that I

|-> can't fit standard pipe insulation on, and that are

|-> constantly radiating heat away.

|-> >

|-> > For instance, near the top (ie hottest) part of the

|-> store, I have a pipe outlet with large brass elbow that

|-> connects to a pump and mixer assembly. This whole assembly

|-> of pipework/pump is always red hot - and must be wasting me

|-> quite a lot of energy.

|-> >

|-> > Have been looking at this Armaflex lagging tape:

|-> >

|-> http://www.pipelagging.com/pipe-insulation-lagging-tape-50mm

|-> -class-p-7

|-> > 1.html

|-> >

|-> > Assuming this is self-adhesive, I could wrap it round all

|-> the awkward bits of pipework. It's only 3mm thick but guess

|-> I could wrap several layers round if need be.

|-> >

|-> > Does that look a suitable product, or has anyone used

|-> anything else with good results ?

|-> >

|-> > Cheers

|-> > Lee

|->

|->

|-> ------------------------------------

|->

|-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

|-> UK_Selfbuild-unsubscribe@...

|-> The FAQ is available at: http://www.borpin.co.uk To contact

|-> the moderator eMail: Rick_Hughes@... Yahoo! Groups Links

|->

|->

|->

|->



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I think I would wrap the item in cling film first so that if (or more probably

next week (murphys law)) you did need to

service the joint then you should be able to cut the foam off!



Just my 2p worth

Stephen





WEBSTER, Edward ( known as John) wrote:

>

>

>

> another idea is to wrap the joints in plastic bags, and then use

> expanding foam.

> I'm thinking the same way equipment is often boxed for transport -

> put it in a box with bags around it, squirt the foam into the bags

> and let it expand to fill the gap.

>

> This is what I'd though of for our various joints and plate exchanger,

> just not got around to doing it yet.

>

> Cheers,

> Webbo.

I guess my description was poor.

If you use a pair of bags, one either side of the joint, and then

fill them both with foam, you end up with two halves that you can

hopefully lift off the joint. Maybe its easier to imagine you were

filling the bags up with foam in the same manner you would to take

a mould from the joint.



Agreed, though, a bit of clingfilm would certainly save a great deal

of pain should the foam get loose ;-)



And to work properly it would be best to contain the foam inside a

box or tube, to keep its outside neat. Maybe a lump of 110mm soil

pipe cut in half lengthways would make a nice external mould until

the foam had set.



So who is going to be the first one to try it ;-)



|-> -----Original Message-----

|-> On Behalf Of Stephen McGarry

|-> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:57 AM

|-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Insulating "awkward" bits of pipework

|->

|-> I think I would wrap the item in cling film first so that

|-> if (or more probably next week (murphys law)) you did need

|-> to service the joint then you should be able to cut the foam off!

|->

|-> Just my 2p worth

|-> Stephen

|->

|->

|-> WEBSTER, Edward ( known as John) wrote:

|-> >

|-> > another idea is to wrap the joints in plastic bags, and then use

|-> > expanding foam.

|-> > I'm thinking the same way equipment is often boxed for

|-> transport - put

|-> > it in a box with bags around it, squirt the foam into the

|-> bags and let

|-> > it expand to fill the gap.

|-> >

|-> > This is what I'd though of for our various joints and

|-> plate exchanger,

|-> > just not got around to doing it yet.

|-> >

|-> > Cheers,

|-> > Webbo.



This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential

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from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please

notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any

attachments and do not use it for any purpose or disclose its

content to any person, but delete this message and any attachments

from your system. Astrium disclaims any and all liability if this

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Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259

Registered Office:

Gunnels Wood Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2AS, England

I would think you need to keep the pump bodies exposed, or

at least the motor part of it.



|-> -----Original Message-----

|-> On Behalf Of Lee

|-> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:39 PM

|-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Insulating "awkward" bits of pipework

|->

|-> Thanks for all the replies.

|->

|-> I've ordered a couple of rolls of foam tape that looks like

|-> the Armaflex lagging tape but is cheaper (and will no doubt

|-> be crap!).

|->

|-> The boiler room (where the store is) gets very hot inside;

|-> the surface of the store itself is nice and cool so nothing

|-> much being lost there, so the room must be being heated by

|-> the various "awkward" bits of hot pipework, and therefore

|-> must be wasting quite a bit of energy.

|->

|-> The foam tape is only 3mm thick (as is the Armaflex stuff I

|-> believe) so I suspect I'll want a few layers to keep the

|-> heat in properly.

|->

|-> Anyone know if CH pump bodies should be left exposed, or

|-> whether they can be lagged too ?

|->

|-> Cheers

|-> Lee



This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential

and/or privileged information or information otherwise protected

from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please

notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any

attachments and do not use it for any purpose or disclose its

content to any person, but delete this message and any attachments

from your system. Astrium disclaims any and all liability if this

email transmission was virus corrupted, altered or falsified.

-o-

Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259

Registered Office:

Gunnels Wood Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2AS, England

Lee wrote:

> Anyone know if CH pump bodies should be left exposed, or whether they can

> be lagged too ?



I'm pretty sure that the CH circulation pumps at work have a purpose-made

moulded EPS insulation "shell" round them, but IIRC it's only round the pump

itself, not the motor. I'll check when I go in this afternoon.



I'm following this thread with interest, because I too have come to the

conclusion that there must be significant heat losses from the heat bank in

spite of it's built-in insulation layer and the lagging I've put round the

"easy" bits of pipe.



Andrew

I have a data logger on mine, we loose about 4-5 C out of the tank, and

surrounding pipes overnight (so in 7 hours).



We also loose about 2 C at 06:30, when we are still all asleep, I have

yet to track down what this is.



Its a bit weird, but it depends where you measure the tank, I have

sensors top & bottom, we can have the bottom of the tank hotter than the

top for long periods of time.



Mine is in a cupboard, I intend to insulate the cupboard. As somebody

else pointed out, there is quite a bit of circulation of water in the

pipes when there is no water use.



Rick



On Tue, 2009-07-07 at 14:30 +0100, Andrew McLeod wrote:

>

>

> Lee wrote:

> > Anyone know if CH pump bodies should be left exposed, or whether

> they can

> > be lagged too ?

>

> I'm pretty sure that the CH circulation pumps at work have a

> purpose-made

> moulded EPS insulation "shell" round them, but IIRC it's only round

> the pump

> itself, not the motor. I'll check when I go in this afternoon.

>

> I'm following this thread with interest, because I too have come to

> the

> conclusion that there must be significant heat losses from the heat

> bank in

> spite of it's built-in insulation layer and the lagging I've put round

> the

> "easy" bits of pipe.

>

> Andrew

>

>

>

>

>

Do you start your CH circulating pump at 06:30? On initial start it'll

push round a slug of cooler water which will return to the store and

bring down the average temp.



Just a thought.



Tim.





On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Rick<rick@...> wrote:

>

> We also loose about 2 C at 06:30, when we are still all asleep, I have

> yet to track down what this is.

> Mine is in a cupboard, I intend to insulate the cupboard. As somebody

> else pointed out, there is quite a bit of circulation of water in the

> pipes when there is no water use.

>

> Rick





Funny you mention the circulation.



I noticed (by accident) the other day, that the flow pipe to my UFH manifold was

constantly hot, even though it was so warm in the house that none of the zones

had been calling for heat and the UFH pump hadn't been on for ages.



The UFH flow pipe (and return) exits the thermal store, rises about 4m, travels

horizontally about 5m, then drops 4m again to the UFH pump/mixer/manifold

assembly.



I discovered a thermo-siphoning effect, causing a constant circulation of water

even when the UFH is switched off. Obviously with around 26m length of 22mm pipe

in total, there's going to be a reasonable amount of heat loss from these pipes

when the UFH is not required.

I manually turned off the isolation valves at the UFH end - and noticed a big

difference in temperature of certain areas.

I wonder how much this has cost me in terms of wasted energy over the last year

or so !!



The solution as far as I can see is to fit a 2-port motorised valve, powered by

the UFH pump supply, so when the pump is off, the pipes are closed.

That would indeed cure the heat loss - but have you calculated the payback

period ?



I haven't done so either but suspect that it might be quite a while.









Regards



Eric Mears

CHESTERFIELD

Derbyshire



-----Original Message-----

From: Lee

Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:15 PM





The solution as far as I can see is to fit a 2-port motorised valve, powered

by the UFH pump supply, so when the pump is off, the pipes are closed.

You'd also want to arrange a delay between valve and pump so that the

pump doesn't find itself pushing against a closed valve.

Nick



Nick Laurie PC Repairs

nwlaurie@...

Skype: nicklaurie

01458 250834 and 07941 731056











On 7 Jul 2009, at 21:29, Eric MEARS wrote:



>

>

> That would indeed cure the heat loss - but have you calculated the

> payback

> period ?

>

> I haven't done so either but suspect that it might be quite a while.

>

>

>

>

> Regards

>

> Eric Mears

> CHESTERFIELD

> Derbyshire

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Lee

> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:15 PM

>

>

> The solution as far as I can see is to fit a 2-port motorised valve,

> powered

> by the UFH pump supply, so when the pump is off, the pipes are closed.

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> UK_Selfbuild-unsubscribe@...

> The FAQ is available at: http://www.borpin.co.uk

> To contact the moderator eMail: Rick_Hughes@...

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

Presumably you could do the usual thing of connecting the pump via the

contacts that close when the valve is fully open, just like you do with the

normal circulating pump and valve(s).



Graham



PS All this conversation is shaming me into going to lag all the pipes in

our (very hot) airing cupboard!



-----Original Message-----

From: Nick Laurie



You'd also want to arrange a delay between valve and pump so that the

pump doesn't find itself pushing against a closed valve.

Nick



-----Original Message-----

From: Lee





The solution as far as I can see is to fit a 2-port motorised valve, powered

by the UFH pump supply, so when the pump is off, the pipes are closed.

Just been discussing the 2-port valve idea on another forum.

The simple answer is to power the valve from the pump supply, and then power the

pump from the switched output of the valve (which energises once the valves is

open).

Sounds like a winner to me !





--- In UK_Selfbuild@..., Nick Laurie <nwlaurie@...> wrote:

>

> You'd also want to arrange a delay between valve and pump so that the

> pump doesn't find itself pushing against a closed valve.

> Nick

>

> Nick Laurie PC Repairs

> nwlaurie@...

> Skype: nicklaurie

> 01458 250834 and 07941 731056

>

>

>

>

>

> On 7 Jul 2009, at 21:29, Eric MEARS wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > That would indeed cure the heat loss - but have you calculated the

> > payback

> > period ?

> >

> > I haven't done so either but suspect that it might be quite a while.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Regards

> >

> > Eric Mears

> > CHESTERFIELD

> > Derbyshire

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Lee

> > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:15 PM

> >

> >

> > The solution as far as I can see is to fit a 2-port motorised valve,

> > powered

> > by the UFH pump supply, so when the pump is off, the pipes are closed.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> > UK_Selfbuild-unsubscribe@...

> > The FAQ is available at: http://www.borpin.co.uk

> > To contact the moderator eMail: Rick_Hughes@...

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

> >

> >

>

Is there a simpler way of preventing self circulation without a motorised

valve?  Can it it be done with some sort of low presure non-return valve?  I

have been trying to work out how to do this but can't quite figure it out.



Simon





  --- In UK_Selfbuild@..., Eric MEARS <Eric.Mears@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> That would indeed cure the heat loss - but have you calculated the payback

> period ?

>

> I haven't done so either but suspect that it might be quite a while.

>

>

>

>

> Regards

>

> Eric Mears

> CHESTERFIELD

> Derbyshire

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Lee

> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:15 PM

>

>

> The solution as far as I can see is to fit a 2-port motorised valve, powered

> by the UFH pump supply, so when the pump is off, the pipes are closed.

>

Hi Eric



No I haven't looked at the payback period, but for me there's more to it than

financial gain.



Where the UFH pipes drop down through the wall to the UFH manifold assembly,

they pass through the wall of my baby boy's bedroom and as a result, they heat

the wall up. When the weather is warm we really struggle to keep his room cool

as it is, so having part of the wall acting as a radiator when the heating is

off does not help matters!



With hindsight I'd have routed the pipes differently, or at least chased them in

deeper and insulated them somehow where they run behind plasterboard. As it is,

they're embedded



I have identified a better, much more direct (and horizontal) route for the UFH

supply pipework that I will change to, but this involves chasing out the wall in

our dining room and creating lots of mess - and until I get round to making our

living room habitable, the dining room is our living area and I can't go making

mess with the littl'un round....

Who'd be daft enough to have kids part way through a selfbuild eh ?!!



So when it gets cold enough that we start to need the UFH again, I'll look at a

2-port valve (not that expensive). For now though I've just turned the isolation

valves off, and turned off the room stats so they don't call for heat.



Cheers

Lee



--- In UK_Selfbuild@..., Eric MEARS <Eric.Mears@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> That would indeed cure the heat loss - but have you calculated the payback

> period ?

>

> I haven't done so either but suspect that it might be quite a while.

>

>

>

>

> Regards

>

> Eric Mears

> CHESTERFIELD

> Derbyshire

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Lee

> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:15 PM

>

>

> The solution as far as I can see is to fit a 2-port motorised valve, powered

> by the UFH pump supply, so when the pump is off, the pipes are closed.

>

My initial investigations show the hot bits on our stuff are the exposed



isolation valves, blending valves, motors, and of course the plate heat

exchanger. None of these are insulated, and nothing inside the boiler

casing

is insulated either.



Consequently the cupboard in our utility room with the boiler and

thermal

store in make a very effective airing cupboard.

Infact, the heat it gives off is sufficient to heat the entire utility

room,

and we now leave the door open so it doesn't get too hot in there :-|





|-> -----Original Message-----

|-> On Behalf Of Andrew McLeod

|-> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 2:30 PM

|-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Insulating "awkward" bits of pipework

|->

|-> Lee wrote:

|-> > Anyone know if CH pump bodies should be left exposed, or

|-> whether they

|-> > can be lagged too ?

|->

|-> I'm pretty sure that the CH circulation pumps at work have

|-> a purpose-made moulded EPS insulation "shell" round them,

|-> but IIRC it's only round the pump itself, not the motor.

|-> I'll check when I go in this afternoon.

|->

|-> I'm following this thread with interest, because I too have

|-> come to the conclusion that there must be significant heat

|-> losses from the heat bank in spite of it's built-in

|-> insulation layer and the lagging I've put round the "easy"

|-> bits of pipe.

|->

|-> Andrew



This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential

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Simon

Exactly so. A non return valve in a pumped circuit will prevent

thermo-circulation. Used one on my central heating in the lkast house. Got one

in the solar circuit in this one.

Rgds

Peter

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: sj_purser

   To: UK_Selfbuild@...

   Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:48 PM

   Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Insulating "awkward" bits of pipework











   Is there a simpler way of preventing self circulation without a motorised

valve? Can it it be done with some sort of low presure non-return valve? I have

been trying to work out how to do this but can't quite figure it out.



   Simon



   --- In UK_Selfbuild@..., Eric MEARS <Eric.Mears@...> wrote:

   >

   >

   >

   > That would indeed cure the heat loss - but have you calculated the payback

   > period ?

   >

   > I haven't done so either but suspect that it might be quite a while.

   >

   >

   >

   >

   > Regards

   >

   > Eric Mears

   > CHESTERFIELD

   > Derbyshire

   >

   > -----Original Message-----

   > From: Lee

   > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:15 PM

   >

   >

   > The solution as far as I can see is to fit a 2-port motorised valve, powered

   > by the UFH pump supply, so when the pump is off, the pipes are closed.

   >











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Interesting - although the thermo-circulation is in the same direction as normal

pumped flow, so not sure how this could cure it ?







--- In UK_Selfbuild@..., "Peter and Jane" <pandj.munnoch@...>

wrote:

>

> Simon

> Exactly so. A non return valve in a pumped circuit will prevent

thermo-circulation. Used one on my central heating in the lkast house. Got one

in the solar circuit in this one.

> Rgds

> Peter

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: sj_purser

>   To: UK_Selfbuild@...

>   Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:48 PM

>   Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Insulating "awkward" bits of pipework

>

>

>

>

>

>   Is there a simpler way of preventing self circulation without a motorised

valve? Can it it be done with some sort of low presure non-return valve? I have

been trying to work out how to do this but can't quite figure it out.

>

>   Simon

>

>   --- In UK_Selfbuild@..., Eric MEARS <Eric.Mears@> wrote:

>   >

>   >

>   >

>   > That would indeed cure the heat loss - but have you calculated the payback

>   > period ?

>   >

>   > I haven't done so either but suspect that it might be quite a while.

>   >

>   >

>   >

>   >

>   > Regards

>   >

>   > Eric Mears

>   > CHESTERFIELD

>   > Derbyshire

>   >

>   > -----Original Message-----

>   > From: Lee

>   > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:15 PM

>   >

>   >

>   > The solution as far as I can see is to fit a 2-port motorised valve,

powered

>   > by the UFH pump supply, so when the pump is off, the pipes are closed.

>   >

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

Lee



This is the problem, how do you stop thermal self circulation through the pump

in flow direction without the use of a motorised valve. I can't think of a way

of doing it. The design of the pipe work can determine it but you may have to

have pipe runs that could lead to this circulation.



Simon





  the o cycling --- In UK_Selfbuild@..., "Lee" <muddyboots@...>

wrote:

>

> Interesting - although the thermo-circulation is in the same direction as

normal pumped flow, so not sure how this could cure it ?

>

>

>

> --- In UK_Selfbuild@..., "Peter and Jane" <pandj.munnoch@>

wrote:

> >

> > Simon

> > Exactly so. A non return valve in a pumped circuit will prevent

thermo-circulation. Used one on my central heating in the lkast house. Got one

in the solar circuit in this one.

> > Rgds

> > Peter

> >   ----- Original Message -----

> >   From: sj_purser

> >   To: UK_Selfbuild@...

> >   Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:48 PM

> >   Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Insulating "awkward" bits of pipework

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >   Is there a simpler way of preventing self circulation without a motorised

valve? Can it it be done with some sort of low presure non-return valve? I have

been trying to work out how to do this but can't quite figure it out.

> >

> >   Simon

> >

> >   --- In UK_Selfbuild@..., Eric MEARS <Eric.Mears@> wrote:

> >   >

> >   >

> >   >

> >   > That would indeed cure the heat loss - but have you calculated the

payback

> >   > period ?

> >   >

> >   > I haven't done so either but suspect that it might be quite a while.

> >   >

> >   >

> >   >

> >   >

> >   > Regards

> >   >

> >   > Eric Mears

> >   > CHESTERFIELD

> >   > Derbyshire

> >   >

> >   > -----Original Message-----

> >   > From: Lee

> >   > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:15 PM

> >   >

> >   >

> >   > The solution as far as I can see is to fit a 2-port motorised valve,

powered

> >   > by the UFH pump supply, so when the pump is off, the pipes are closed.

> >   >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

>

years ago (ie: when my father put-in CH, with a floor-standing gas-boiler &

radiators) it was the norm to rely on natural circulation & to have no pump at

all ... can't recall what they were, but there were tricks for routing the pipes

to ensure it all worked properly ... as I recall, his particular installation

didn't quite pull it off, and he ended-up fitting a pump to sort it !   In those

days, CH was not the norm, but IIRC coal-fired CH was the most-common, then oil,

then gas (before North Sea Gas made it much cheaper) !



Chhris





--- In UK_Selfbuild@..., "sj_purser" <builder@...> wrote:

>

> Lee

>

> This is the problem, how do you stop thermal self circulation through the pump

in flow direction without the use of a motorised valve. I can't think of a way

of doing it. The design of the pipe work can determine it but you may have to

have pipe runs that could lead to this circulation.

>

> Simon

> I'm pretty sure that the CH circulation pumps at work have a purpose-made

> moulded EPS insulation "shell" round them, but IIRC it's only round the

> pump

> itself, not the motor. I'll check when I go in this afternoon.



I checked, and it is as I thought. The pumps are enclosed in an EPS shell,

so it must be OK to insulate them. Presumably a fair bit of heat will still

leak out by conduction through the un-insulated motor, mine certainly get

quite hot when they're running.



  Andrew

I'm sure someone posted that answer earlier today, which is why I didn't

bother to respond before.



That is certainly how all of our 2 port valves are wired.



well, more correctly:



The permanent supply goes to the timed room stats, and the 2 port valve.

The switched supply from the room stat enables the motor on the valve.

the permanent supply to the valve goes to one side of the switch, and

the other side powers the motor once the switch is closed.



It is best to do it this way, else you may try to draw all the current

the motor needs through the contacts on the room stat too.



In our case the 2 port valve is right on the manifold , and the room

stat is fairly close to it. The pumo is in the cupboard by the thermal

store. The connecting wire is a length of 3 core & earth (neutral, live

to stat + 2 port valve, switched live returning back to motor).



HTH.



|-> -----Original Message-----

|-> On Behalf Of Lee

|-> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 2:58 PM

|-> Subject: Re: UK_Selfbuild Insulating "awkward" bits of pipework

|->

|-> Just been discussing the 2-port valve idea on another forum.

|-> The simple answer is to power the valve from the pump

|-> supply, and then power the pump from the switched output of

|-> the valve (which energises once the valves is open).

|-> Sounds like a winner to me !

|->

|->

|-> --- In UK_Selfbuild@..., Nick Laurie

|-> <nwlaurie@...> wrote:

|-> >

|-> > You'd also want to arrange a delay between valve and pump

|-> so that the

|-> > pump doesn't find itself pushing against a closed valve.

|-> > Nick

|-> >

|-> > Nick Laurie PC Repairs

|-> > nwlaurie@...

|-> > Skype: nicklaurie

|-> > 01458 250834 and 07941 731056

|-> >

|-> > On 7 Jul 2009, at 21:29, Eric MEARS wrote:

|-> >

|-> > > That would indeed cure the heat loss - but have you

|-> calculated the payback period ?

|-> > >

|-> > > I haven't done so either but suspect that it might be

|-> quite a while.



This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential

and/or privileged information or information otherwise protected

from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please

notify the sender immediately, do not copy this message or any

attachments and do not use it for any purpose or disclose its

content to any person, but delete this message and any attachments

from your system. Astrium disclaims any and all liability if this

email transmission was virus corrupted, altered or falsified.

-o-

Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259

Registered Office:

Gunnels Wood Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2AS, England