Hi James,
You also have a good valid point.

Indeed these people have written good books and i commend them for
that. Not only is it a difficult subject but it is hard to convey the
exact meaning of my father or others words. Especially when they have
benn translated twice. Runasimi, Spanish and then into English things
can get lost of mis interperated. So it is a risky path to take and i
thanks those authors that have taken the risk to bring the word of
our people to the world. Thankyou Joan!

I believe Rose is reffering to the unscrupulous shamsns who will
initiate anyone for a large amount of money. Who tend to want to keep
you coming to them whilst you still have money, But you do not
recieve much knowledge of the path in return for your time. I believe
Joan has had experience of at least one of these charlatans.

They are there primarily to extort money and do this with the idea
that you can have can be spiritual (not a word i particularly like)
in the matter of a few weekends.

You cannot live constantly between the two world, i.e being mundane
on weekdays and spiritual at weekends. The idea is that you blend the
two and see the beautiful spiritual things with the mundane. This
creating a balane that flows. You shouldnt be too much in one side.
You cannot live with your head in the clouds and your feet not
touching the earth.

I welsome opinions and questions. So now the circle is open for you
to ask.

Sonqoyman
Rosita

-- In Wisdom_of_the_Andes@..., James Stovall
<null2099@...> wrote:
>
> Rose,
>
> I respect the intent of your posting, but I think I must play a bit
of "devil's advocate" if you will forgive the term. It seems to me,
and I may be wrong, that things are never so simple.
>
> After all Joan Parisi Wilcox who was on this list (and still may
be) wrote an excellent book, as did J.E. Williams, and Alberto
Villoldo. Do they not charge money for these books?
>
> And while there are those who are traditional who might not charge
you money, what of those who would charge you with the payment of an
animal, crops or services? Is money not just a form of bartering? Or
do we expect all who would teach anything to have taken a vow of
poverty?
>
> If we are only concerned with the maintenance of authentic, should
we not limit ourselves to ceremonies and traditions of our
bloodlines? And if that is lost to the ages of time, are we then
stuck only following the traditions that replaced them?
>
> For that matter is it authentic to even discuss these things at all
via e-mail?
>
> I will be the first to say that there is no need for any heavy
energy here, and that I may not fully belive all of my own points
even, I just tend to question blanket statements of any sort, but I
do agree with may of your points.
>
> With peace in my heart and wishing you the best
> James
>
> Rose Beckmann <rose_beckmann@...>
wrote:
> Muchas gracias, Rosita, for your kind words. I am posting here
below the page I mentioned in my post. Hope it'll show and you can
access the rest from there.
> Glad to hear you are back and able to work with the group. I'm in
Virginia and will have to miss out on the despacho but if you have
valid contacts in my area I'd be interested in contact.
> with best wishes and kind regards,
> Rose
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Saturday 21 April 2007 | 6:51 PM
> IntroductionDo you think you are "Indian at heart" or were an
Indian in a past life? Do you admire native ways and want to
incorporate them into your life and do your own version of a sweat
lodge or a vision quest? Have you seen ads, books, and websites that
offer to train you to be come a shaman in an easy number of steps, a
few days on the weekend, or for a fee?
>
> Have you really thought this all the way through? Have you thought
about how native people feel about what you might want to do?
>
> Please think about these important points before you take that
fateful step and expend time, money, and emotional investment:
>
> Native people DO NOT believe it is ethical to charge money for any
ceremony or teaching. Any who charge you even a penny are NOT
authentic.
>
> Native traditionalists believe the ONLY acceptable way to transmit
traditional teachings is orally and face-to-face. Any allegedly
traditional teachings in books or on websites are NOT authentic.
>
> Learning medicine ways takes decades and must be done with great
caution and patience out of respect for the sacred. Any offer to
teach you all you need to know in a weekend seminar or two is wishful
thinking at best, fraud at worst.
>
> Most of these FRAUDULENT operators are not the slightest bit
reputable. Some, such as Robert "Ghostwolf" AKA Robert Franzone and
Forrest Carter, have actually been convicted of fraud. Some are
sexual predators who prey upon their followers. "Sun Bear" AKA
Vincent La Duke was a serial rapist who was facing numerous charges
when he died, including the rape of girls as young as fourteen.
>
> Women should be extremely wary of any " teacher" who claims sex is
part of an alleged "ceremony." Most of these FRAUDULENT operators
have been caught making complete fantasies of what many whites WISH
natives were like. Another way to say it is that they are outright
liars and hoaxers. Some, like Carlos Castaneda, were exposed as long
as three decades ago.
>
> You probably are asking yourself, "Aren't any of these people for
real and a good way for me to learn?"
>
> We (native people and our supporters) realize that most of you do
not know any better, at least not yet, but we hope you learn about
these matters from more reputable sources and in a more respectful
manner.
>
> If it says New Age or Shamanism on the cover, it's not a good
source for learning about natives. Find out which authors can be
trusted before you pay money to operators who harm us all.
>
> Please understand the following points about native spiritual ways:
>
> Native belief systems are COMMUNAL, not focused on the individual's
faith like Christianity, and are TRIBE-SPECIFIC. There is NO "generic
Indian" form of spirituality. There are as many differences from
tribe to tribe as there are between Hinduism and the Church of
England. No one would think of teaching those two as the same and
calling them "Indo-European," yet many of these FRAUDULENT operators
teach a thrown together mishmash of bits and pieces of different
beliefs.
>
> TRADITIONAL elders are very cautious about changing rituals and
mixing different customs, it does happen, of course, but only after
lengthy discussions that can take decades. FRAUDULENT operators are
very casual and haphazard in what they do, in a manner that shows
they have no understanding of or respect for the sacred.
>
> TRADITIONAL elders DO NOT believe that any ceremony can be done by
anyone who feels like it. It's that same caution and respect for the
sacred. Yet these FRAUDULENT operators will let anyone do their
inaccurate version of a ceremony if they have the money. Vision
quests, for example, are intended for young boys age 12 to 14, but
boys don't have much money, so these FRAUDULENT operators
sell "quests" for hundreds or thousands to mostly middle-aged men and
women.
>
> There is also the matter of telling people they can be shamans and
charging them for it. If you were interested in Judaism, would you
pay money to someone who said he could make you a rabbi in just one
weekend seminar? If someone did this and then claimed Jewish
objections were foolish, we would recognize he was anti-Semitic.
Think about the lack of respect these operators show to native people
and beliefs, and to their own followers, by defrauding people.
>
> Native people DO NOT use the label "Shaman."
>
> Think also about how it makes it harder for natives and whites to
get along when whites have been given an untrue picture of native
cultures. We have to learn to get along and we can't do that as long
as whites give support to operators who push a fraudulent version of
what we are like.
>
> Top
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>