NATURIST PETITION WHITEWASHED BY THE CORPORATION - I NEED YOUR HELP!

ţţţSunday, 15 November, 2009 18:48
From: "michael peacock" <zimbazane@...>

Dear Supporters

What follows are two letters - the first to three local North London papers -
the second to various national papers - the documents relevant to the report I
will email seperately.

The references I made about Prague are thanks to a vacation I had there earlier
this year.

I urge you to email a letter of support AS SOON AS POSSIBLE - local paper
deadlines follow - it is the only chance we have for the Hampstead Heath
Consultative Committee ( HHCC ) to hear our side of the argument - let me assure
you that they DO READ all letters etc in the Local Papers - also do write to the
national press - for me this is a much wider debate than one tiny naturist
facility in London - it is about attitudes to naturism in the UK.

This is really our last chance to have any influence on the FINAL desision - I
have been told there will be no right of appeal - the inevitable letters of
opposition from my main opponent Robert Sutherland Smith will follow - but that
will be after 23rd Nov.

The report just goes to show how powerful the influence of the Lifebuoys really
is - but that should come as now surprise.

if you get time to read the report - you may pick some aspects to refer to in
your letter - I just picked up on two.

All through this debate I have based my argument on FACTS - all we have had in
opposition is argument based on myth - emotion - and barely disgiused
homophobia.

Also as in the letter that follows please make every effort to attend City of
London Guildhall on 23rd Nov at 1.45pm at this meeting the fate of my petition
will be decided - we cannot speak, but our presence will send a message.

note this general rule applies if you send a letter:– in all cases please supply
a postal address & daytime contact number
The editor regrets that anonymous letters cannot be published, although names
and addresses can be withheld.


HAM & HIGH:  deadline for letters is 6pm on Monday 16th prior to date of
publication.
letters@...

CAMDEN GAZETTE :  deadline for letters is 12 noon Monday 16th prior to date of
publication.
nlnews@...

CAMDEN NEW JOURNAL:   deadline for letters is 12 noon Tuesday 17th prior to date
of publication.
letters@...

Daily Telegraph, Sunday Telegraph and Telegraph.co.uk.
dtletters@... (Daily Telegraph)
stletters@... (Sunday Telegraph).


Letters to the editor
Letters for publication should be sent to:
Guardian letters@...
Observer letters@...

Evening Standard
letters@...

The Independent
letters@...

The Times & Sunday Times
letters@...

The Financial Times
letters.editor@...

For loads of backgound stuff go to:

http://www.gopetition.co.uk/petitions/male-nude-sunbathing-at-hampstead-heath-me\
ns-pond.html

YOUR CONTINUED SUPPORT IS APPRECIATED.

cheers

Michael 07525 344 995

==========

NATURIST PETITION WHITEWASHED BY THE CORPORATION

A report 'Response to Petition to Extend the Nude Sunbathing Enclosure at Men's
Bathing Pond' was recently presented to the Hampstead Heath Consultative
Committee for 'discussion.' It will no doubt seal the fate of my petition at a
public meeting to be held at the City of London Guildhall on 23rd Nov at 1.45pm
- I urge supporters to attend, we cannot speak, but our presence will send a
message.

All interested parties namely the Swimming Facilities Forum were consulted with
the notable EXCLUSION of any naturists, consequently all are united against my
1061 signature petition, not even one square inch is conceded. If we had been
consulted some of the absurd findings ( too many to detail here ) could have
been addressed, for example a larger area for naturists could only be justified
for 18 days of each year during the summer on days deemed sunny! Also the
'recreationalists' would be denied the right to play badminton - surely on
cooler days & winter periods it would not be an issue?

It now transpires that the influential all powerful Highgate Lifebuoys were
largely responsible for the barrier in 1994, despite a local Ombudsman rejecting
a barrister's complaint and survey findings of 64.5% in favour of no change. For
over 100 years there was not a problem, even nude swimming was previously
de-rigueur.

By comparison Prague population of 1.2 million has seven facilities for
naturists, many vast in area, and yet London pop 60 million has just one tiny
13m x 8m area of concrete, surrounded by sheets of metal, shielded away from
society. A complete separation by adding a door is now being considered as the
spectacle of nude sunbathers 'can be offensive to some people' which speaks
volumes about the hostile attitude to naturists in the UK, so completely at odds
with the rest of Europe.

To be fair & reasonable has always been my philosophy - both sadly lacking in
the debate - Ideally I would prefer a reversion to the pre 1994 'Berlin Wall'
but my petition was based on compromise - the 'barrier' has merely created a
division between 'them' & the 'minority club.'

So my last hope is that the Committee will read this letter and actually LISTNEN
to our side of the debate before making a final desision.

Michael Peacock

Brixton

==========

SENT TO THE NATIONALS:

WHY IS OUR ATTITUDE TO NATURISM COMPLETELY AT ODDS WITH THE REST OF EUROPE?

The petition I conducted for a year which collected 1061 signatures including
Peter Tatchell – to attempt a modest improvement for the lot of naturists in
London, has brought home the stark difference in attitude towards naturism here
in the UK and the rest of Europe.

Seeking a larger space allocated to nude sunbathing within the enclosure at
Hampstead Heath Men's Pond, has created a storm of opposition seemingly based on
emotion, and attitudes deeply engraved in our culture, that we should be ashamed
of the clothes we were born with and like the rest of the mainland, be shielded
away from prying eyes.

When collecting signatures many supporters outside of the Men's Pond at
Hampstead Heath, frustrated that the tiny space allocated to naturists is always
packed to bursting on warm summer days,( with the area allocated to textiles two
thirds larger & rarely more than 25% capacity ) often asked why the grassy bank
could not be also allocated to naturists. Well unfortunately this is not Germany
where most parks in major cities have such areas.

Also by comparison Prague population of 1.2 million has seven facilities for
naturists, many vast in area, and yet London pop 60 million has just one tiny
13m x 8m area of concrete, surrounded by sheets of metal, kept shielded away
from society, more akin to being micro-waved on hot days.

A report 'Response to Petition to Extend the Nude Sunbathing Enclosure at Men's
Bathing Pond' was recently presented to the Hampstead Heath Consultative
Committee for 'discussion.' It will no doubt seal the fate of my petition at a
public meeting to be held at the City of London Guildhall on 23rd Nov at 1.45pm.
The report speaks volumes about the hostile attitude to naturists in the UK.

All interested parties namely the Swimming Facilities Forum were consulted with
the notable EXCLUSION of any naturists, consequently all are united against my
petition, not even one square inch is conceded. If we had been consulted some of
the absurd findings ( too many to detail here ) could have been addressed, for
example a larger area for naturists could only be justified for 18 days of each
year during the summer on days deemed sunny! Also the 'recreationalists would be
denied the right to play badminton'- surely on cooler days & winter periods it
would not be an issue?

It now transpires that the influential all powerful Highgate Lifebuoys were
largely responsible for the barrier in 1994, despite a local Ombudsman rejecting
a barrister's complaint and survey findings of 64.5% in favour of no change. For
over 100 years there was not a problem, even nude swimming was previously
de-rigueur.

A complete separation by the addition of a door is now being considered as the
spectacle of nude sunbathers 'can be offensive to some people, particularly
parents/guardians with children ( 8 years & older ), who use the swimming
facility' Why I ask should anyone be offended?

To be fair & reasonable has always been my philosophy - both sadly lacking in
the debate - Ideally I would prefer a reversion to the pre 1994 'Berlin Wall'
but my petition was based on compromise - the 'barrier' has merely created a
division between 'them' & the 'minority club.'

Michael Peacock

Brixton

==========

As a lot of you may know. In spas/saunas in such countries as Germany and
Holland, the dress code rules are nude compulsory - no clothing must be worn. 
This is for reasons of hygeine.   Not only that, but the sessions are MIXED sex.
And it works beautifully.   No perves or innapropriate behaviour.  Everyone
there because they enjoy a good sauna or steam.

So why can we not have clothing optional/nude rules in the mixed sessions in
spas here in England, including York Hall?   What is the big problem with
non-sexual nudity in a mixed sex environment.   I think some of the reasons why
this is:

A) The prudish attitudes to nudity us Brits have.  (Allthough not ALL of us are
prudes)

B) An exagerated awareness of perverts.

C) Spas unwilling to even trail mixed clothing optional/nude sessions.  Because
they think people will be offended by nudity(in a mixed sex envrionment), and
think some perves will take advantage of the mixed nude environment.


I know of a number of others who prefer to enjoy saunas and steams au naturel. 
But are not really keen on doing so within a sex segregated environment.  They
would much prefer to do so within a mixed sex environment.   After all if you
went to a beach or a swimming pool, you wouldn't expect it to be sex segregated
would you.

I like the look of the York Hall spa.  Looks a nice place.  But I would only be
interested in attending if they relax the dress code rules in the mixed
sessions.   As am not keen on having to wear sticky shorts, or a strictly 100%
male environment.

I have to make do with hopping over to Germany and Holland every few months for
a short break.  As it's the only way to enjoy a sauna nude in a pleasant mixed
sex environment.  There are just no places like this here in the UK.   I know of
Bristol Gardens Health Spa in Brighton and Rio's Naturist Spa in London.  But
these are seedy places attracting "swingers" as the clubs have "private rest
rooms".   I would not ever go back to those particular spas.

Are we ever likely to see mixed clothing optional/nude sessions in spas here in
the UK?

It might be an idea to draw the Ironmonger Row restoration team's attention to
the rather scathing report on

York Hall at:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/good_spa_guide/article2059650.ece

And also the encouraging report on Porchester at:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article5752617.ece

Chris B.

With regards to making a case for continued naturism at single sex sessions at
Ironmonger Row, how about getting formal reports re: wearing swimming costumes
and the consequent lack of hygiene v.v. nudity. There must be something on the
web that explains why costumes are not a good idea.

Certainly at German spas naturism - i.e. sans costume - is compulsory - for
single gender and mixed gender sessions. There is simnply no hang-ups about
nudity in Europe.

Personally in the UK if someone is wearing a swim suit I make a point of not
sitting on any seats that he/she may have been on. For one thing And I doubt
whether such costumes are adequately cleaned in the pre-sauna showers. Swimming
costumes are not designed for heated conditions. Being made of man-made fibre
they could be a source of bacteria. The artificial colour dies can also leach
out in the heat. Yuck!!

Chris B.

• Effective filtering of the plunge water - Porch ester Hall has an effective system
• Chilling of plunge to maintain temperature during summer
• Silent filling of plunge - A user invented the system at IMR in order to allow the surface water to be skimmed off silently. 
• Water available in steam to hose down seating and cool steamers - something that is always present in German/Swiss/Austrian steam baths.
• Large lockers - at least as big as the present ones with good visibility i.e. not located in a secluded area which would facilitate break-ins.
• If layout is to be revised all round access to slabs to improve scrubbing
• Scrubbing area should be heated adequately and provided with water for sluicing
• Under-floor heating outside the steam and hot rooms
• Larger Steam room or add a 2nd one.

• Optional nudity has been enjoyed in Turkish baths since they were first introduced - see their history at the great site :-http://www.victorianturkishbath.org/_2HISTORY/AtoZHist/Monument/3FstLondonEng.htm.
• Many users find the freedom from clothes a liberating and pleasant experience.
• In German/Swiss/Austrian baths clothing is not allowed - its seen as unhygienic. Its also very uncomfortable to sweat in shorts/swim suit.
• Facilities should allow privacy for those who want it but not force users to cover up.

• Those who get free scrubs are very unlikely to pay Ł25 for a professional treatment.
• Scrubs appeal to a different set of customers to those paying for treatments.
• Scrubs have a very limited impact on treatment revenue,
• Free scrubs provide a significant attraction for many low income customers generating entrance income.

I sent the below o the Docklands Group and the Ironmonger Row Group - but both
declined to post it. The first Group seems to be for patrons of Eureka Naturist
Club rather than Docklands, but the Ironmonger Row Group should surely be for
Ironmonger Row patrons? I give up. CJB.

--- In Yorkhall@..., Chris J Brady <chrisjbrady@...> wrote:
>
> Hi -
>
> Wonder if anyone has seen this?
>
>
http://www.islington.gov.uk/DownloadableDocuments/Environment/Pdf/Planning_/Majo\
r_Schemes_Kings_Cross/final_ironmonger_brochure.pdf
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ykgrr67
>
> I guess we need to attend the meetings or give them feedback (last page of PDF
doc.)
>
> Chris B.
>

The play was inspired by Ironmonger Row - but the movie
was filmed, rather obviously, at Pinewood Studios.

Long-awaited DVD can be pre-ordered from MovieMail
Ł11-99p (free postage)

Review by Julian Upton, MovieMail:

Nell Dunn's play about six women who meet regularly at a
crumbling Turkish bathhouse in London was something of a cause
celebre when it premiered in the West End in 1981.

Theatregoers had never seen this much nudity in one production,
let alone heard female characters talking this frankly.

But beneath the novelty factor is a poignant, funny and
genuinely warm portrait of female camaraderie. The bathhouse
is a place to trade intimate stories, to express their hopes
and fears.

When the building is threatened with closure, they are
mobilised to try and save it.

Hugely faithful to the original staging, this adaptation has
become more notable for being the last film of director
Joseph Losey and star Diana Dors.

As the bathhouse's maternal attendant, Dors exudes class and
calmness in what was a rare chance to shine this late in her
career.

As the patrons, Sarah Miles, Vanessa Redgrave and Patti Love
cast their clothes aside and tackle the material with
admirable gusto.

Hi -

Wonder if anyone has seen this?

http://www.islington.gov.uk/DownloadableDocuments/Environment/Pdf/Planning_/Majo\
r_Schemes_Kings_Cross/final_ironmonger_brochure.pdf

or

http://tinyurl.com/ykgrr67

I guess we need to attend the meetings or give them feedback (last page of PDF
doc.)

Chris B.

I used the baths for the first time only a couple of weeks ago
when I visited London for the weekend, and it was a brilliant,
comfortable experience. I use the sauna at my local health
club nude, as do a number of other members, but a significant
number of them still wear swimwear, which can be a little uncomfortable at
times.

At first, I was a little reticent about stripping off but after seeing other
guys casually walking back and forth from the baths
to the relaxation area completely naked, I immediately relaxed, grabbed my towel
and went into the steam room. Then a shower,
then to the plunge pool for a cool down, and then to the hot
rooms, and finally dozing off in the relaxation area, lying on
a bed or chair naked without a care in the world.
Repeat as required for three hours. Blissful.

The nudity is definitely the defining, most wonderfully relaxing
part of the experience. Everyone is naked, equal, non-judgmental
and totally unself-conscious. Naturally, all men – straight or gay
– do check each other out when we are naked together. Every
man would admit this if they were honest. I could see other men looking at my
penis as I relaxed. I in turn would occasionally
glance at another man's genitals – the man sitting opposite me
in the hot room, the guy sitting in the next chair etc. But it was
simply in the spirit of mutual appreciation of each other's nudity – the
atmosphere was completely non-sexual. I felt not only cleansed all over but
quietly accepted by the other men in the baths even thought actual conversation
was minimal. The old-fashioned ambience
and the slightly shabby feel of the décor actually was charming and comforting,
and again enhanced the experience.

Just as I discover the baths, I am disappointed to learn that they are to be
shut down for refurbishment so plan to try to get down to London as often as I
can and make use of the facility. I hope the clothing optional status remains
until it is closed and obviously
continues when the baths re-open for business. I am of the opinion that on
single sex days, nude swimming and sauna should also be made available, but
obviously this would be highly unlikely.

I am dismayed by the female manager's attitude. The adoption of compulsory
swimwear in the baths after refurbishment is simply ludicrous and shows a
fundamental ignorance of the purpose of the baths, and that communal nudity is
an essential part of that single sex experience.

* Sitting down, sweating into a swimming costume is quite simply unhygienic and
does not promote relaxation or cleanliness whatsoever.

* Even in my local health club, where roughly half of the male membership chose
to use the changing room sauna wearing towels and trunks, female staff members
are still not permitted to enter the men's facilities, to save embarrassment in
case they walk on naked men showering and changing. The same obviously applies
to male staff and the women's areas. The woman manager in charge has arranged
the rosters so both male and female staff are at work at any one time to deal
with any problems.

Any chance of protesting at the plans, or perhaps simply ignore them and
continue to use the baths naked??

--- In Yorkhall@..., "whiteheadpeard" <mlsalton@...> wrote:
>
> Ironmonger Row refurbishment:
>
> The Turkish baths will close, with the rest of the Centre,
> for two years from May, 2010.
>
> Swimwear will be compulsory during female only and
> male only sessions.
>
> Linda Handley, General Manager, is to introduce the rule
> for "Health & Safety" - and so staff of opposite sex to
> customers can assist with supervision.
>

Is that so that female staff can prowl the men's changing room like at York
Hall. Now THAT is unhealthy. CJB.

http://www.thecnj.co.uk/westend/2009/091109/wnews091109_09.html

West End Extra - by JAMIE WELHAM

Published: 11 September 2009

SHMEISSING might sound like a medieval torture technique but nobody would ever
knowingly pay to be hurt... would they?

The Jewish massage technique, which translates from the Yiddish as “beat”,
is nothing less than the “Rolls-Royce of massage” according to Lee Balch,
the UK’s only licensed shmeisser.

It involves being lathered in soap, vigorously rubbed and then beaten with a
rafia brush, all the time laying derobed in a steam room ratcheted up to 55C.

The shmeisse is completed with a heart-stopping plunge into a cold bath. It
sounds brutal, but a limber and refreshed West End Extra can attest it really
isn’t. The technique was brought to the capital by eastern European jews at
the turn of the century as a cheap way of getting clean.

Ian Wright, James Cracknell and Damon Albarn are some of Mr Balch’s fans.
“Nobody else can do it because they wouldn’t work in the heat. It takes it
out of me but you will leave feeling incredible,” said Mr Balch.

To arrange a shmeisse visit www.shmeisse.com or call Lee on 07973 218211.

==================

Comments may be added to the article. Or send an email to:

letters@...

==================

This is full text of email, dated 05/08/09,
received from Linda Handley, General Manager,
Ironmonger Row Baths - after I enquired about
policy following refurbishment:

"It will be a Turkish baths, but customers wearing
swimsuits on all sessions is something that I will
be implementing, and have wanted to for some time,
as well as Health and Safety it means that both sex
staff can check these areas, including myself."

I'm not surprised if staff want to postpone
conflict with customers until the Turkish baths
reopen (with swimwear rule) after refurbishment.

Ironmonger Row refurbishment:

The Turkish baths will close, with the rest of the Centre,
for two years from May, 2010.

Swimwear will be compulsory during female only and
male only sessions.

Linda Handley, General Manager, is to introduce the rule
for "Health & Safety" - and so staff of opposite sex to
customers can assist with supervision.

Belated update on the pre-9am 'Swim for Life' situatiom:
Following last week's meeting with Blair Cottam, I am pleased (& somewhat
surprised!) to report that we got a result! As from monday July 20th, over 60s
can swim free before 9am, mon-fri, at York Hall (& only York Hall). For now,
anyway. GLL will be 'monitoring' the situation. So don't all rush at once!
Gold star this time for GLL at least; thanks guys.
Dave


--- In Yorkhall@..., martin dowland <martindowland@...> wrote:
>
> many fair points there. Many of the 'rules' are determined by the Councils
themselves. I use the Islington pools, they are various in their quality and
Ironmonger has some of the rudest most arrogant and space-intolerant users of
all which is a shame because the pool is up to European standards. Similarly,
the Turkish baths is one of the very best i London and the Islington saunas some
of the best run. Aqua Terra do seem to understand what a sauna is, but I do not
know how much is determined by the Council.
> London Fields is fabulous, even though there are some awkward details in
changing rooms (useless doors on showers).
> You have to realise that, few people want to swim outside and that the
annoying feral types who go to pools have as much right to go there as you do.
The are a pain to manage, believe me!
>
> --- On Fri, 10/7/09, palmwino <palmwino@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: palmwino <palmwino@...>
> Subject: [Yorkhall] Re: "Swim for life" initiative
> To: Yorkhall@...
> Date: Friday, 10 July, 2009, 11:19 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Yorkhall@yahoogroup s.co.uk, "John" <notdrowninginhackn ey@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Palmwino and Martin Dowland,
> >
> > I think you both make valid points. Local authorities (and their
contractors) are free to administer the scheme as they see fit. Some enlightened
boroughs such as - I believe - Islington (and their contractor, Aquaterra)
choose to allow people in to swim at what are termed "peak hours", including
before 9am but lane allocation is in force to avoid conflict.
> >
> > Less englightened boroughs, such as Tower Hamlets and Hackney (and their
somewhat inferior contractor GLL) place all manner of restrictions on swimmers
(you need a bloody PhD to understand their price schedules and timetables). No
wonder that lots of people I know from out of one of the other boroughs visit
Islington to swim .
> >
> > But, as Dave points out, those who are economically active tend to work 9-5
and can exercise only outside those hours. They have to pay more to use the
facilities and, when they get there, the facilities are far busier than during
the daytime (ie. off peak). So it seems fair and sensible to me that, if you can
benefit from the scheme, you should use it at the time it is most quiet (and for
local incentive schemes to reflect that).
> >
> > Of course, many of the most needy people - who would benefit most from free
swimming, such as physically disabled people, people with mental health issues,
chronically sick, socially isolated, etc - do not qualify and get left out in
the cold. Their free swimming schemes during off-peak hours have been withdrawn.
But the local authorities and Government is strangely quiet on this issue -
funny that, isn't it?
> >
> > As for London Fields Lido, it is absolutely beautiful, stunning and a pure
pleasure to swim in. But it breaks my heart to go at - say, 2.30 pm - and be one
of only five or six in the entire pool. Obviously it gets busy by 5pm and, in
the summer months, it is so chocka with screaming peeing kids you wouldn't want
to be in there if they paid you. But during the rest of the year? It is criminal
to let that pool sit empty and force locals to travel miles (even travel out of
the borough) to get an affordable swim.
> >
> > There, I've had my ha'pennies worth!
> >
> > J
> >
> >
> > --- In Yorkhall@yahoogroup s.co.uk, martin dowland <martindowland@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > fitness swims at these times are perfectly reasonable since they allow
people who want to do vigorous swimming on their way to work the chance to do
this with minimal hinderance, which is experienced at most other times. People
who are less likely to be in a rush go later, often at the same time as their
'club' sessions ( atype of membership for over 55's).
> > > Some people shout loudly that they want to have a swim, sauna or hatever
24/7, such that they would deprive others of a rare chance to get the facility.
Would you say the same if you found you couldn't behave hygienically and in a
relaxed manner if your men only session was invaded by women and vice versa?
> > > No, givernment money iis not being pocketed by the service provider. I
blame the Daily Telegraph for your apparent assumption!
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 29/6/09, palmwino <palmwino@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: palmwino <palmwino@>
> > > Subject: [Yorkhall] "Swim for life" initiative
> > > To: Yorkhall@yahoogroup s.co.uk
> > > Date: Monday, 29 June, 2009, 3:26 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Any over 60s out there a bit miffed that we can't get a swim "when we
would normally expect to get a swim" (Dept of Media, Culture & Sport website)
for free? In other words, why is the "Fitness Swim" session from 7am-9am not
designated as a 'public swimming' session, even though it is open to all members
of the public, albeit adults?
> > > All pools administered by GLL seem to be subject to this restriction,
including all pools within the 'Olympic Boroughs' (so much for 'Olympic
legacy'!) Those Hackney residents wondering why they can't get a free swim AT
ALL in the only Olympic-sized pool (London Fields Lido) might feel especially
miffed!
> > > Does anyone have the energy to contribute to a borough-wide, even
capital-wide campaign to call GLL to task, and institute this initiative in the
spirit in which it was conceived? (I mean, at least, would you sign a petition?)
> > > I fear once again the government pronises one thing, whilst the local
implementation of it is devised to maximise profits & minimise costs. Millions
have been allocated to this initiative, and hundreds of thousands have been
allocated to your local council. How much of this money is being pocketed by the
proxy administrators of these schemes?
> > > Dave Draper
> > >
> >
>
> Forgive me, I hadn't checked your replies until now, being under the
impression the users' group was in semi-permanent hibernation! It's good to know
this isn't so.
> Regional manager Blair Cottam has at least offered to meet me to discuss this
issue. Sadly an attempt yesterday to discover how much (or little) user support
there might be, by posting a petition on the changing room noticeboards (with
permission) has by today been replaced with a politely officious notice to send
feedback through official channels! Local permission has been over-ridden.
> A couple of points:
> 7am-9am is not 'officially' peak time at York Hall (unlike many other pools).
Neither is it usually oversubscribed at this time.
> Many of the swimmers affected by this are already coming before nine, so there
would be little increase in numbers. One I spoke to yesterday used to come at
twenty to, but now waits until nine. As he points out, ten minutes later the
schools are in, using half or two thirds of the pool for swimming lessons. Thus
the post-9am policy is actually encouraging more people to come when the
facilities are minimised!
> We'll see what transpires at my meeting next wednesday.
> Dave
>

Daily Telegraph 'Weekend' section:
"James Cracknell volunteers to be soaked, rubbed and scrubbed"
at the Porchester Centre, Queensway.

Men only: Mon Wed Sat 10am - 10pm

Admission: Ł22.10p
"A full smeiss massage is Ł25."

Before becoming an expensive "spa", York Hall was enjoyed by hundreds of
customers who could not afford those prices.

Hi, Canning town baths is not closed. It is very much open - please see
www.newdocklands.co.uk We encourage first timers to visit on a Sunday - two new
visitors can enter for just Ł5.50 each. It has fantastic steam, a great Russian
sauna, a cafe, TV and guys can massage and schmeiss each other to their hearts
content. Please note, though, it is not for those looking for sex.

Ironmonger Row is still open. The place will close at some point for
redevelopment. I urge everyone to write or call Islington council to insist that
they do not wreck the place or turn it into - God forbid - a 'spa'.

Best, Paul



--- In Yorkhall@..., "Chris" <chrisjbrady@...> wrote:
>
> I think Canning Town has closed - the Docklands-Turkish-Baths Group seems to
promote the mixed naturist place in Kent called Eureka instead. And Porchester
is far too expensive for what it is. I'm not sure they allow naturist / free
massage there either. Irinmonger Row is closed for redevelopment. CJB.
>
> --- In Yorkhall@..., Blake Jonathan <j0b21@> wrote:
> >
> > Frankly "Vision Redbridge Culture and Leisure" have no vision at
> > all . Once again a healthy nourishing pastime becomes unhealthy  with
> > all the pleasure removed. Where do they find these managers who have
> > no understanding of what a spa should be- they'd never survive in
> > Europe where the spas really took off. I've never been back to York
> > Hall since that was destroyed it by making it a"Spa", thank heavens
> > for Canning Town, Porchester- let's hope Ironmonger Row doesn't get
> > destroyed in the refurbishment. These places are treasures.
> > Jonathan Blake
> > On 13 Jul 2009, at 15:44, whiteheadpeard wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fullwell Cross Leisure Centre, Redbridge:
> > > The former Vapour Suite is to reopen, following refurbishment, as a
> > > "Spa".
> > > There is an "Open Day" on Saturday, 18th July, before the facility
> > > reopens for public use on 20th July.
> > >
> > > The Manager, Andy Jones, has decreed:
> > >
> > > "This facility is not a vapour suite, but a spa so there will no
> > > longer be allowed massages of each other in the steam rooms and
> > > swimming costumes are compulsory (during women only/men only
> > > sessions) as no towels will be allowed into the steam/sauna rooms."
> > >
> > > The leisure centre is controlled by
> > > "Vision Redbridge Culture and Leisure"
> > >
> > >
> >
>

I think Canning Town has closed - the Docklands-Turkish-Baths Group seems to
promote the mixed naturist place in Kent called Eureka instead. And Porchester
is far too expensive for what it is. I'm not sure they allow naturist / free
massage there either. Irinmonger Row is closed for redevelopment. CJB.

--- In Yorkhall@..., Blake Jonathan <j0b21@...> wrote:
>
> Frankly "Vision Redbridge Culture and Leisure" have no vision at
> all . Once again a healthy nourishing pastime becomes unhealthy  with
> all the pleasure removed. Where do they find these managers who have
> no understanding of what a spa should be- they'd never survive in
> Europe where the spas really took off. I've never been back to York
> Hall since that was destroyed it by making it a"Spa", thank heavens
> for Canning Town, Porchester- let's hope Ironmonger Row doesn't get
> destroyed in the refurbishment. These places are treasures.
> Jonathan Blake
> On 13 Jul 2009, at 15:44, whiteheadpeard wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Fullwell Cross Leisure Centre, Redbridge:
> > The former Vapour Suite is to reopen, following refurbishment, as a
> > "Spa".
> > There is an "Open Day" on Saturday, 18th July, before the facility
> > reopens for public use on 20th July.
> >
> > The Manager, Andy Jones, has decreed:
> >
> > "This facility is not a vapour suite, but a spa so there will no
> > longer be allowed massages of each other in the steam rooms and
> > swimming costumes are compulsory (during women only/men only
> > sessions) as no towels will be allowed into the steam/sauna rooms."
> >
> > The leisure centre is controlled by
> > "Vision Redbridge Culture and Leisure"
> >
> >
>

Fullwell Cross Leisure Centre, Redbridge:
The former Vapour Suite is to reopen, following refurbishment, as a "Spa".
There is an "Open Day" on Saturday, 18th July, before the facility reopens for
public use on 20th July.

The Manager, Andy Jones, has decreed:

"This facility is not a vapour suite, but a spa so there will no longer be
allowed massages of each other in the steam rooms and swimming costumes are
compulsory (during women only/men only sessions) as no towels will be allowed
into the steam/sauna rooms."

The leisure centre is controlled by
"Vision Redbridge Culture and Leisure"

--- In Yorkhall@..., "John" <notdrowninginhackney@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Palmwino and Martin Dowland,
>
> I think you both make valid points.  Local authorities (and their contractors)
are free to administer the scheme as they see fit.  Some enlightened boroughs
such as - I believe - Islington (and their contractor, Aquaterra) choose to
allow people in to swim at what are termed "peak hours", including before 9am
but lane allocation is in force to avoid conflict.
>
> Less englightened boroughs, such as Tower Hamlets and Hackney (and their
somewhat inferior contractor GLL) place all manner of restrictions on swimmers
(you need a bloody PhD to understand their price schedules and timetables).  No
wonder that lots of people I know from out of one of the other boroughs visit
Islington to swim .
>
> But, as Dave points out, those who are economically active tend to work 9-5
and can exercise only outside those hours.  They have to pay more to use the
facilities and, when they get there, the facilities are far busier than during
the daytime (ie. off peak).  So it seems fair and sensible to me that, if you
can benefit from the scheme, you should use it at the time it is most quiet (and
for local incentive schemes to reflect that).
>
> Of course, many of the most needy people - who would benefit most from free
swimming, such as physically disabled people, people with mental health issues,
chronically sick, socially isolated, etc - do not qualify and get left out in
the cold.  Their free swimming schemes during off-peak hours have been
withdrawn.  But the local authorities and Government is strangely quiet on this
issue - funny that, isn't it?
>
>  As for London Fields Lido, it is absolutely beautiful, stunning and a pure
pleasure to swim in.  But it breaks my heart to go at - say, 2.30 pm - and be
one of only five or six in the entire pool.  Obviously it gets busy by 5pm and,
in the summer months, it is so chocka with screaming peeing kids you wouldn't
want to be in there if they paid you.  But during the rest of the year?  It is
criminal to let that pool sit empty and force locals to travel miles (even
travel out of the borough) to get an affordable swim.
>
> There, I've had my ha'pennies worth!
>
> J
>
>
> --- In Yorkhall@..., martin dowland <martindowland@> wrote:
> >
> > fitness swims at these times are perfectly reasonable since they allow
people who want to do vigorous swimming on their way to work the chance to do
this with minimal hinderance, which is experienced at most other times. People
who are less likely to be in a rush go later, often at the same time as their
'club' sessions ( atype of membership for over 55's).
> > Some people shout loudly that they want to have a swim, sauna or hatever
24/7, such that they would deprive others of a rare chance to get the facility.
Would you say the same if you found you couldn't behave hygienically and in a
relaxed manner if your men only session was invaded by women and vice versa?
> > No, givernment money iis not being pocketed by the service provider. I blame
the Daily Telegraph for your apparent assumption!
> >
> > --- On Mon, 29/6/09, palmwino <palmwino@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: palmwino <palmwino@>
> > Subject: [Yorkhall] "Swim for life" initiative
> > To: Yorkhall@...
> > Date: Monday, 29 June, 2009, 3:26 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Any over 60s out there a bit miffed that we can't get a swim "when we would
normally expect to get a swim" (Dept of Media, Culture & Sport website) for
free? In other words, why is the "Fitness Swim" session from 7am-9am not
designated as a 'public swimming' session, even though it is open to all members
of the public, albeit adults?
> > All pools administered by GLL seem to be subject to this restriction,
including all pools within the 'Olympic Boroughs' (so much for 'Olympic
legacy'!) Those Hackney residents wondering why they can't get a free swim AT
ALL in the only Olympic-sized pool (London Fields Lido) might feel especially
miffed!
> > Does anyone have the energy to contribute to a borough-wide, even
capital-wide campaign to call GLL to task, and institute this initiative in the
spirit in which it was conceived? (I mean, at least, would you sign a petition?)
> > I fear once again the government pronises one thing, whilst the local
implementation of it is devised to maximise profits & minimise costs. Millions
have been allocated to this initiative, and hundreds of thousands have been
allocated to your local council. How much of this money is being pocketed by the
proxy administrators of these schemes?
> > Dave Draper
> >
>


Forgive me, I hadn't checked your replies until now, being under the impression
the users' group was in semi-permanent hibernation! It's good to know this isn't
so.
Regional manager Blair Cottam has at least offered to meet me to discuss this
issue. Sadly an attempt yesterday to discover how much (or little) user support
there might be, by posting a petition on the changing room noticeboards (with
permission) has by today been replaced with a politely officious notice to send
feedback through official channels! Local permission has been over-ridden.
A couple of points:
7am-9am is not 'officially' peak time at York Hall (unlike many other pools).
Neither is it usually oversubscribed at this time.
Many of the swimmers affected by this are already coming before nine, so there
would be little increase in numbers. One I spoke to yesterday used to come at
twenty to, but now waits until nine. As he points out, ten minutes later the
schools are in, using half or two thirds of the pool for swimming lessons. Thus
the post-9am policy is actually encouraging more people to come when the
facilities are minimised!
We'll see what transpires at my meeting next wednesday.
Dave

Hi Palmwino and Martin Dowland,

I think you both make valid points.  Local authorities (and their contractors)
are free to administer the scheme as they see fit.  Some enlightened boroughs
such as - I believe - Islington (and their contractor, Aquaterra) choose to
allow people in to swim at what are termed "peak hours", including before 9am
but lane allocation is in force to avoid conflict.

Less englightened boroughs, such as Tower Hamlets and Hackney (and their
somewhat inferior contractor GLL) place all manner of restrictions on swimmers
(you need a bloody PhD to understand their price schedules and timetables).  No
wonder that lots of people I know from out of one of the other boroughs visit
Islington to swim .

But, as Dave points out, those who are economically active tend to work 9-5 and
can exercise only outside those hours.  They have to pay more to use the
facilities and, when they get there, the facilities are far busier than during
the daytime (ie. off peak).  So it seems fair and sensible to me that, if you
can benefit from the scheme, you should use it at the time it is most quiet (and
for local incentive schemes to reflect that).

Of course, many of the most needy people - who would benefit most from free
swimming, such as physically disabled people, people with mental health issues,
chronically sick, socially isolated, etc - do not qualify and get left out in
the cold.  Their free swimming schemes during off-peak hours have been
withdrawn.  But the local authorities and Government is strangely quiet on this
issue - funny that, isn't it?

  As for London Fields Lido, it is absolutely beautiful, stunning and a pure
pleasure to swim in.  But it breaks my heart to go at - say, 2.30 pm - and be
one of only five or six in the entire pool.  Obviously it gets busy by 5pm and,
in the summer months, it is so chocka with screaming peeing kids you wouldn't
want to be in there if they paid you.  But during the rest of the year?  It is
criminal to let that pool sit empty and force locals to travel miles (even
travel out of the borough) to get an affordable swim.

There, I've had my ha'pennies worth!

J


--- In Yorkhall@..., martin dowland <martindowland@...> wrote:
>
> fitness swims at these times are perfectly reasonable since they allow people
who want to do vigorous swimming on their way to work the chance to do this with
minimal hinderance, which is experienced at most other times. People who are
less likely to be in a rush go later, often at the same time as their 'club'
sessions ( atype of membership for over 55's).
> Some people shout loudly that they want to have a swim, sauna or hatever 24/7,
such that they would deprive others of a rare chance to get the facility. Would
you say the same if you found you couldn't behave hygienically and in a relaxed
manner if your men only session was invaded by women and vice versa?
> No, givernment money iis not being pocketed by the service provider. I blame
the Daily Telegraph for your apparent assumption!
>
> --- On Mon, 29/6/09, palmwino <palmwino@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: palmwino <palmwino@...>
> Subject: [Yorkhall] "Swim for life" initiative
> To: Yorkhall@...
> Date: Monday, 29 June, 2009, 3:26 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Any over 60s out there a bit miffed that we can't get a swim "when we would
normally expect to get a swim" (Dept of Media, Culture & Sport website) for
free? In other words, why is the "Fitness Swim" session from 7am-9am not
designated as a 'public swimming' session, even though it is open to all members
of the public, albeit adults?
> All pools administered by GLL seem to be subject to this restriction,
including all pools within the 'Olympic Boroughs' (so much for 'Olympic
legacy'!) Those Hackney residents wondering why they can't get a free swim AT
ALL in the only Olympic-sized pool (London Fields Lido) might feel especially
miffed!
> Does anyone have the energy to contribute to a borough-wide, even capital-wide
campaign to call GLL to task, and institute this initiative in the spirit in
which it was conceived? (I mean, at least, would you sign a petition?)
> I fear once again the government pronises one thing, whilst the local
implementation of it is devised to maximise profits & minimise costs. Millions
have been allocated to this initiative, and hundreds of thousands have been
allocated to your local council. How much of this money is being pocketed by the
proxy administrators of these schemes?
> Dave Draper
>