--- In anti_ses@..., "Richard Germond" <hratp@w...>
wrote:

Most discussions now take place at www.forum.whyaretheydead.net
The title of the website does not refer to Ses, St. James or St.
Vedast!

Hi,
I have just been made aware of the group. As an ex St James student I
am delighted to find this group in existance. I would be keen to know
more, particuarly about any legal, non-legal or advocacy activities
which may be planned. Is this group just a discussion forum or do you
have specific action-orientated objectives?
Thanks
Richard Germond

Hi Nodddddddy.


You might find this forum interesting If you do not already know about
it.

http://www.whyaretheydead.net/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=7

lots of ex St james st vedast pupils post up their experiences.



best

leonm

On 14 Oct 2004, at 18:07, noddddddddddy wrote:

>
>
>  i was a student at st james for 10 years and ive just found out about
>  your marvellous 'pressure group'. i wish i'd known earlier. i was
>  witness and victim of countless 'punishments' meeted out by the
>  underqualified psychopaths who ran the school. these 'punishments'
>  ranged from the physical (being punched, being cained etc) to the
>  psychological (being forced to do 'gym' in hyde park naked). these
>  experiences still effect me almost twenty years later and its a great
>  relief to know there are many others in a similiar situation. i went
>  to 'art in action' a few years ago and saw mr lacey (who i remember
>  as a viscious and deranged lunatic) I was amazed to see he was only
>  about 5'4". needless to say, the urge to batter him to within an inch
>  of his life was almost too tempting. Unfortunately i didn't succumb.
>  Keep up the good work.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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i was a student at st james for 10 years and ive just found out about
your marvellous 'pressure group'. i wish i'd known earlier. i was
witness and victim of countless 'punishments' meeted out by the
underqualified psychopaths who ran the school. these 'punishments'
ranged from the physical (being punched, being cained etc) to the
psychological (being forced to do 'gym' in hyde park naked). these
experiences still effect me almost twenty years later and its a great
relief to know there are many others in a similiar situation. i went
to 'art in action' a few years ago and saw mr lacey (who i remember
as a viscious and deranged lunatic) I was amazed to see he was only
about 5'4". needless to say, the urge to batter him to within an inch
of his life was almost too tempting. Unfortunately i didn't succumb.
Keep up the good work.

If you're going to selectively cut and paste whole sections of
previous posts to suit your arguments then all you will suceed in
doing is confusing everyone. Refer to my most recent post and you
will get the whole point. Dont cut and paste and post things
irresponsibly and out of context with the rest of the message - just
take the time to read and digest the entire message becasue that is
what I stand by, and there really is nothing at all to add to that
at this present point. It's really not that long or complicated to
understand. You are the one who is "going on about it". I have
already said everything I have to say on the matter. As has already
been spelt out on numerous occasions, before anyone can "forgive and
forget" there must be truth, acknowledgment and accountability. We
have certainly not "told our stories over and over again", but have
told them systematically one at a time, and none of them have been
repeated. But if you insist on keeping on asking the same questions
then it is you who will keep boring everyone.

Mathew said (message 90):
"We shall continue to be angry about this and speak out publicly
against St James, St Vedast, the SES, and all of it's affiliated
organisations (including those that continue to support, sponsor and
fund it), until some kind of justice is done."

Now I am not the most intelligent girl in the world, but from what
Mathew said there it seems that if he is going to be angry at St
James (etc.) then it must mean he has a issue with St James? However
in his most recent post he says:

"But finally I must reiterate, we have no issue at all with today's
St James, or in no way wish to harm it's reputation."

Now I am confused, this isn't the only points that you have made
which you later have just said the opposite of the original. I could
go through all your posts again and copy and past a lot of things,
but that would be time consuming and would be quite boring for the
rest of us to read. So what I am trying to say is why can you not
stick to your points?

Mathew also said:
"As for our aims, we are currently in talks with SES and St James
hierarchy in an attempt to resolve this issue. It is in the
interests of all concerned to put this behind us and move on."

What were you aims? I don't know if you have already stated your
aims in bullet points, but if you haven't then can you do so just so
that we all know what the aims are.
If it is in the interest of all of you to put this all behind you
then why are you all still going on about it?
"The best way forward is to forgive and forget the wrong doings of
their past, that is the way forward to a prospers future for all"
I am not saying that the past doesn't matter, but the only way you
can put all that behind, as you Mathew said that you wanted to do,
is to try to forget about and get on with your lives, it must be
hard to forget about it but telling your stories over and over again
and reading about other peoples stories doesn't really help.

If you set up a forum "to facilitate open and honest discussion and
reflection", don't be surprised that some people,s needs in the forum
may not be concerned with physical abuse from the days of St. Vedast-
not directly anyway. Perhaps they wern't born then! They will listen
with dismay at what took place - they will be keen for resolution.
But they may find more recent incidents alarming too. The "7th Form" -
  who participates actively in it? It would appear that pasr pupils
fall into 3 catagories -those who enter ses and therefore maybe the
7th form, those who run a mile!, and those who keep a low profile. It
doesn't seem like an open situation. The value of the work St. James
does is not in question - the unspoken price of it should be.

I have just read the recent spate of posts (since Alex posted his St
Vedast testimony) with interest. In an attempt to pour some oil over
troubled waters, I think a few things need to be made clear here. We
have absolutely no dispute whatsoever with the current St James
school or any of it's pupils. Nor do we have absolutely no interest
whatsoever in ruining the reputation of the current St James school.
St James' name is only mentioned because of it's origins i.e. St
Vedast, and because the headmaster and certain past abusers from St
Vedast are still being employed there (although I am well aware of Mr
Debenham's imminent retirement). It's name is also mentioned because
of it's obvious SES connections. For all these reasons, the name of
St James will inevitably be tarred with the same brush up to a
point. However this particular issue is strictly between former St
Vedast pupils and the past abusers, and nobody else.

Of course what happens today matters, and we are definitely not just
living in the past. But what some people need to appreciate, and
which has already been eloquently discussed in previous postings, is
that it doesn't matter how long ago an injustice took place. It's
not possible for any of these issues to go away until they have been
fully faced up to and acknowledged. I would add that closure on this
is just as crucial for the perpetrators of these abuses as it is for
those subjected to them. I am as pleased as anyone to see that the
St James of today bares very little resemblance to the St
James/Vedast of the past. I assume they must have learnt from past
mistakes. I would also suggest that perhaps the only reason they
stopped administering corporal punishment was because it was
outlawed by the government, and not because of any deliberate and
progressive change in policy. Otherwise perhaps it would still be
taking place today. Having said that, the testimonies of former
pupils make it perfectly clear that what took place at St Vedast
went far above and beyond standard corporal punishment.

And as for this individual who names himself "i90210i", I have to
say that any credibility your postings may once have had, you have
successfully succeeded in ruining, by your recent series of highly
rude and abusive messages. These do not serve you or anyone else
wishing to contribute to serious and intelligent discussion on this
forum.

As for our aims, we are currently in talks with SES and St James
hierarchy in an attempt to resolve this issue. It is in the
interests of all concerned to put this behind us and move on. For
obvious reasons I cannot disclose details of these discussions on
this public forum, but hopefully once a resolution has been arrived
at, then an appropriate statement can be posted on here.

But finally I must reiterate, we have no issue at all with today's
St James, or in no way wish to harm it's reputation.

Best wishes to you all

Hello Antises,
it's great to hear from you.

It seem to me, that there is in fact great pressure for everyone
involved to be in ses.
Firstly the teachers- two seem to have been 'asked' to leave after
they have left Ses.
Secondly the pupils. Jack duPille mentioned ages ago, that when he
had decided not to join Ses a teacher commented to him that he
was "disapointed" with his choice. This seem to be some kind of
pressure to me, although yes, very subtle. The teacher also seems to
think it's his/her job to gather recruits!?
Pupils are also invited on trial groups weekends before they get to
foundation group level. At the end of these there is a meeting where
people have to decide whether they will join or not, and it's here
that some pupils have experiences very subtle pressures to join.
Sixth form pupils are then invited, at foundation group level, to
attend a meeting with Mr. Lambi and his wife. Here they recieve a
talk, and can ask questions. Anyone who after the talk still
seems 'on the brink' can be offered the chance for private talks with
Mr. Lambi, in order to ask questions.
This all seems to me to be pressure on pupils, although yes, it's
very subtle, and hopefully if students are strong
enough is easily ignored in precedent to their own feelings.

Sorry we always seem to be putting St. James down, but it seems to be
what really need to discuss, as Gadflys dreams says. But I do not
believe that what we say is unfounded, and therefore hope it can be
useful somehow. Bringing things into the open can only cast more
light on them.

I know St. James does have some special things to offer, such as
emphasis on giving students a strong good moral code (mentioned by
the inspector in the report), but I'm not sure, Antises, quite what
you were refering to when you said:
     "...are outweighed by other offerings of St James in
     comparison to the majority of independent schools."
Generally, as St, James is a small school it just cannot offer the
range of subjects and exstensive facilities available at larger older
schools.

I would agree with gadflys dreams in terms of corporal punishment. I
think that with the history St. James has with reference to corporal
punishment it is a good thing that teachers have been forced to find
other ways to keep discipline. From what I've heard it should earn
them more respect.

Judging by the testimonials from past pupils I would suggest that
it's a non-starter to propose a return to corporal punishment at St.
James. It was clearly not used with due judgement etc. The Moderator
has suggested to Gibble Gabble that this site is being used to put
down the SES and St. James and that that is NOT  the purpose of this
site. The Moderator has avoided saying what the purpose of the site
actually IS. One thing is clear - people are welcoming the
opportunity to release serious misgivings they have harboured alone
for a long time and indeed to express counter arguments to
such "complaints". It would be most helpful if the Moderator stated
clearly what the aims of the site "are".
Regarding the two best teachers "leaving" St. James because they were
no longer members of the SES. The question is, were they told they
must go - were they effectively pushed out? If so, then no doubt they
would have agreed to "leave", but under pressure!

Although moderator of this forum, I would like to intervene to express
my views regarding the recent posts. I very much sympathize with
gibble gabble's criticism of past pupils' motives in posting here. It
has become clear to me, often by what they say and even more so by how
they say it, that they are categorically attempting to put down the
SES and/or St James. Now this is not the objective of this board. St
James Schools no longer pressurizes pupils into joining the SES,
although it seems that those who do join are looked upon with more
favour as people who yearn to "be of use to the world" by the few
hardcore SES advocates that remain. I also believe that in my opinion
the two best teachers that taught at the Senior Boys' school left due
to their not being members of the SES. Having said all this, these
obvious disadvantages, compounded with the appointment of a pro-SES
headmaster-elect, are outweighed by other offerings of St James in
comparison to the majority of independent schools. I may be Anti-SES
but I am a firm supporter of corporal punishment - in answer to
gadflys_dreams about alternative forms of punishment now that corporal
punishment is out, the effect it has had is to increase the number of
expulsions even though the policy of the school is not to pass on
problems. It has also meant increased disorder throughout the school,
which I do not feel can be subsided by any way other than corporal
punishment.

Anti-SES

Training young people to care about the world they live in is a claim
that StJames would make. Perhaps that should start with the world of
their school. Perhaps pupils and their parents should be informed
that teachers who cease to belong to ses will need to be removed from
the staff - a pretext will be found-such as "they have reached
retirement age" or "they would prefer to teach in a university".
These were the stories we were given when two long-standing teachers
were removed last year.Was this the "truth"?

It would be useful to hear from current pupils. Beatings are
certainly out so presumably those men who administered beatings and
are still on the staff are having to actually find teaching methods
that do not involve such brute force -hopefully this will lead to
them having to actually have some qualification in what they teach
rather than the assumption that as "philosophers" they'll be able to
teach anything
On the positive side, pupils going through the ses day schools are
not left to guess how to cope with issues they'll meet in the world -
they are given plenty of guidance and they are encouraged to value
the spiritual life. But this latter point is linked to maybe one of
the strongest aims of the day schools (albeit unwritten) - viz. that
the last part of their education at one of these schools leads to the
beginning of their membership into the ses. A head  of the sisth form
who does not understand this to be their most important task in the
post would need to be replaced by someone still intoxicated with the
firm belief that becoming members of the ses is the only way to
ensure that we will go on to lead "useful" lives.

Hi Adrasteia

I have enjoyed your contributions to this listing. Keep them coming. Don't
be put on the defensive by a few rude contributors who don't have much to
say themselves.

regards

Dan Salaman




>From: anti_ses@...
>Reply-To: anti_ses@...
>To: anti_ses@...
>Subject: [anti_ses] Digest Number 45
>Date: 23 May 2004 14:33:50 -0000
>
>There is 1 message in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. i90210i
>            From: "adrasteia_778" <adrasteia_778@...>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
>    Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 22:25:18 -0000
>    From: "adrasteia_778" <adrasteia_778@...>
>Subject: i90210i
>
>I would like to make it absolutely clear that I do care about the
>present pupils and staff of St. James and the present members of Ses.
>I also care about the past pupils, staff and members. That is why I
>write on this site, and on occasions write a lot. And no, it doesn't
>take long to check the sites every few days, although lengthy
>messages take longer.
>I also believe that the ex-pupils share a similar view- many are in
>conversation with present members, pupils and teachers, and have
>shown keen interest in not only the day school as it is now, but also
>the affiliated schools across the world.
>I will not reply to any more abusive messages. They are not helping
>anyone, and are certainly not in line with the aims of this site.
>But I remain open for discussion.
>Adrasteia
>
>
>
>
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_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE connection, FREE modem and one month's FREE line rental, plus a
US or European flight when you sign up for BT Broadband!
http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband

I would like to make it absolutely clear that I do care about the
present pupils and staff of St. James and the present members of Ses.
I also care about the past pupils, staff and members. That is why I
write on this site, and on occasions write a lot. And no, it doesn't
take long to check the sites every few days, although lengthy
messages take longer.
I also believe that the ex-pupils share a similar view- many are in
conversation with present members, pupils and teachers, and have
shown keen interest in not only the day school as it is now, but also
the affiliated schools across the world.
I will not reply to any more abusive messages. They are not helping
anyone, and are certainly not in line with the aims of this site.
But I remain open for discussion.
Adrasteia

The founding of both ses and the associated phiosophy organisations
and day schools around the world are the brain child of Mr. Leon Mc
Laren. When he was alive he was effectively master of them all, until
frail health encouraged less interference. At that point his
successor, Mr. Donald Lambie, took the reins. Neither of these men
have ever been named governors of St.James' schools etc, but they
have undoubtedly had influence greater than the Chairman of the
governors. If your dad was a teacher in St'James/Vedast any exciting
or sticky moments relating to his work would have been discussed
within the philosophy organisation - the head of the ses would
certainly have known about it. As the schools-both-have expanded in
size, this may have lessened, although people are in place , in key
positions (in ses and the childrens' school)to ensure that Mr. Lambie
gets to know what's what. This can happen in the most "innocent"
ways. There may be a visit to some function at the day school-the
girls' skirts may not be quite long enough-your mum might mention to
you that the ses leader's wife said that the girls over 16 ought to
be wearing longer skirts. Because it was such an influential person
that "made the observation" it would have an effect. This is
influence not power, but things are in place to ensure that power
lies with those who are powerfully under the rules and thinking of
sesleadership. It's all about controlling peoples' minds to ensure
that they think and behave in a particular way, and like anywhere
else this has strengths (of cohesiveness and unity of purpose etc)
and weaknesses (people tend to think in a particular, rather than a
free manner). But what is interesting here is the balance of the
advantages and disadvantages. Is their a healthy balance? There
certainly wasn't in the past. What has changed to suggest that there
is now? Has anything fundamentally changed? Corporal Punishment was
dealt with by the law of the land. That same law would be hard
pressed to outlaw control of peoples' minds. Victims of such control
spend alot of time weighing up the advantages and good points against
the disadvantages and bad points - they may need proper help.

Well I thought of read all of what adrasteia had to say, but again I
thought about it twice, and then realised that I have a life, I
don't spend most of my life typing in meaningless into here like the
bitch of this site, adrasteia. I just got a few things to say, that
is if u guys don't give a shit about the pupils that are in the
schools now, why the hell should we or anyone in the school give a
shit about u, you're just in the past, and yes who does give a shit
about the bitch adrasteia? I say we all just stop thinking about
them in the past, because they don't care about the future.

Adrasteia do u have a life? there are a lot of link that u have
posted now, and well to keep up with all the conversations that are
going on in them must take some time, I barley have time after work
to read this site, u must really lead a sad and pathetic life. I
think I have wasted enough of my time on the sad and pathetic people
of this forum, I bid u all good day, and I may come back later to
leave my card, soon to me psy. so I think I could get u suckers to
talk about your abuse, and I would make a bomb of u guys, the amount
of time adrasteia must spend on the here, I'm hoping I can make a
million in just one month with adrasteia just constantly chatting
about shit.

Gadfly's dreams
It seems that the headmaster too was not beyond blame. Do you account
him too to be influenced by powers from above?
Surely as the head of the school he should have made it his business
to find out about the abuse- the school is his responsibility, and
therefore the teachers.
Do you think the fact that teachers were/are in Ses protects them
from blame, because they were following orders and 'everyone else was
doing it'?

Don't worry, you don't have to read the long messages! They were
primarily replies to Vita Canicula Est and Gibble Gabble.
This however is a reply to you, so you might like to take a moment to
read it. I will try not to make it too long, but bear in mind that
about half of it will be quotes from your postings and not my
scribbles, if that makes a difference.

i90210i said:
"As much as I would love to slag off the SES and St. James Schools
about all the matters that have been brought up, I feel that they
are all just in the past. I am a person that for some reason or
another just doesn't like the SES at all, but the conversations that
have taken place here are just making me care less about the whole
situation."

I think that what is going on in these forums is far from
just `slagging off'. It is a criticism of the past behaviour of Ses
and St. James/St. Vedast, which by all accounts is –as I'm sure you'd
agree- pretty horrible.
I'm sorry that the testimonials up on this site have only served to
make you care less. I would ask whether this is because you find them
unbelievable? Or are we back to the old chestnut 'does the past
matter?'
I believe that the past does matter…

i90210i said:
"All organisations encounter some problems in its time, there is no
perfect organisation. You don't criticise a country for its past
attitudes on slaver do you? Every country has had its fair share of
slavery among its people but do we go round saying that England is
shit and all the criticize it, no because its all in the past, and
now look at England its no a bad place to be compared to other
places."

Well I think that to a certain extent countries are criticised for
what they have done, although yes, if problems are dealt with, people
may be willing to attempt to forgive. Forget? Perhaps not. The
holacaust still has a memorial day, one aim of which is to `provide
an opportunity to examine our nation's past and learn for the future.'
This comes from a lengthy statement of purpose that you can read
here:
http://www.holocaustmemorialday.gov.uk/2004/sections/aims/index.asp

Yes, England is not a bad place, but why is this? I would hazard that
it is our past that has made us the country we are, both the good and
bad- I would say that `we' are by no mean perfect and that we can
still learn from the mistakes of our past.
Slavery- most countries have looked at what was going on, seen how
wrong the mentality was that allowed it to go on and have made it
illegal. There has been active work against the systems that promoted
it.
I think one point of this forum and others, and something that has
come out of their existence, is the suggestion that St. James/Ses do
the same, and get rid of the skeletons in the cupboard, or I think
St. James will continue to `reap what they have sown' as it were.








i90210i said:
"Although these incidents were in the past, wouldn't it be nice
if a review of all the teachers were done by an independent
organisation to see if the teachers are fit to teach, hold on there
was one just this year in the boys school, and it seemed like it
passed it, correct me if I am wrong.
I am guessing there is going to be someone on here that's going to
argue that during inspections schools always put on a show, well why
don't we just interview selected students in every year of all the
schools and just obtain information about the teachers that way?
Just a suggestion to any of the governors of the school who may read
this."
i90210i also said:
"What I'm trying to say out of all the that stuff above, is that the
past is the past and well St. James has changed from what it was
before, and if you don't believe us then why don't you come and see?"

Well I think having the pupils reporting on the teachers is quite a
interesting prospect. I see there being two kinds of boys- some who
will never tell anyone for fear of incurring that teacher's wrath-
they will try to be brave about it and keep quiet. Others who are
keen to speak about being hung on coat-pegs will be keen to
exaggerate the truth, realising their position of power, (we have
seen the common-room attitude of `that's nothing, wait till you hear
what he did to me'!), so that eventually anything a pupil says will
be doubted.
If you were asked to judge a pupil's word against a teacher's who's
would you choose? Especially if he was only 7 or 8.

You say that the inspection is to see whether the teachers are fit to
teach. Well I'm not sure that this is the main aim, I think that it
judges the school as a whole. This is the report for any one that
wants to read it or check what it examines:
http://www.isinspect.org.uk/reports/2004/1096_04.htm
Therefore the head teacher must surely be the one to judge if a
teacher is fit to teach? But the head teacher at the boy's school has
been implicated just as strongly, if not more so than the other
teachers, in the various testimonials on this site and others.

?Mathew/Tom/someone? said:
""We shall continue to be angry about this and speak out PUBLICLY
against St James, St Vedast, the SES, and all of it's affiliated
organisations (including those that CONTINUE TO SUPPORT, SPONSOR AND
FUND IT), until some kind of justice is done."

i90210i replied:
Okay, well I'm sorry I didn't realise that that was their aim, if
that is their aim then they are doing a very poor job of it. When I
was at St. James I never received any letter (nor my parents),
seeing as I was a member of St. James and my parents paid my fees
and "supported, funded" the organisation. If you say your aims is to
speak publicly to those who fund the organisation then well your
failing quite badly.
Not only are they just complaining in privet in this forum, but they
haven't even tried to tell the main support of this evil
organisation, that is to say the parents of the students at these
schools."

Well, I must say, I don't think the school office ladies would be
very forthcoming if I walked in and-
a) asked for all the pupils addresses so I could send them letters
detailing facts which would count against the school, or
b) Gave them the letter to distribute to the children themselves!
And I cannot for the life of me think how else I would get such a
letter to all the pupils of St. James, although I'm open to
suggestions.
I would say that they/we/us are doing their best in using this forum,
which is, I would argue, public- anyone can become a member and
anyone can view the messages without even logging on.
But if you have a better idea of how to `spread the word' as it were,
do say.

i90210i continued:
"If these people that going to "…continue to be angry…" don't care
about the school at present then I would really feel sorry for their
children, think about it, if they don't care about other people but
themselves then whose to know they aren't just going to abuse their
children, if they that are against the organisation argue that they
wouldn't do that to their children then why don't they care about
other children that COULD BE under the abuse of the schools. What
I'm trying to say is that their aims, Gibble Gabble, can not just be
the ones that you have copied and pasted.

Don't get me wrong I am not for this organisation I just believe
that your aims are not very clear and you are going about getting
your aims occurring all wrong."

I don't quite follow you here i90210i! But I think this is because
you haven't managed to catch up on all the threads-
Most people are quite content that the abuse of boys by teachers at
St. James has stopped. There have been various statements from people
to support that fact -apart from evidence of the odd coat-peg episode-
  but this was one of the first questions from the ex-pupils, they
were interested in the state of St. James/Ses now.
But I assure you that these people/I/we do care about present pupils.
There is more proof of this at www.forum.whyaretheydead.net where
there are some present pupils in the threads.
I think that with more proof of their caring natures they/we might be
less likely to abuse our children?!


Dan said:
"Tackling and exploring the past is way of ENSURING THAT THE FUTURE
IS BETTER, as well as educating everyone along the way."

i90210i replied:
"So Dan what are you doing to ensure that the future is brighter?
What are you all doing? All i have seen is you all complaining like
little children where the grown ups cant see you or hear you.
Is your aim to sue the schools/SES? If so what will it achive?"

I think that you'll find a lot of people are listening, (grown-ups
included), I am sure that there are a lot of people who just follow
this thread without comment, until they feel the need to post, or
just to watch its development. For example Katherine Watson and Mr.
Lacey.
Some ex-pupils are in talks with the establishment, so things are
happening, again this is detailed in posts mainly on the other
website.

Dan said:
"don't be afraid to speak up"

i90210i said:
"Please don't encourage more people to inform us of how they were
beaten to a poll, its kinda got boring now and well i think most of
us just skip the messages that are like this, i know i do. Like I
have said stop complaining about it if you are not going to do
anything that you actuly say."

I think you'll find that most people have sympathetic reactions to
the posts detailing the abuse. So `most of us' may be a bit of a
broad term. I would ask what you find so boring about them? Are they
acceptable in your view?
I hope I have helped to detail ways in which people are acting on
what they have said they wish to achieve.

i90210i said:
"Well, i could waste my time reading that long message or actuly do
somethign better with my time and just say this, that is if u have a
problem with the schools or SES then why dont you try to actuly
voice them in public then to just post shit up here?
I have no respect for any of you and frankly at the moment i guess
im please that you guys got abused, because you have pointless
lives, all you want is things for yourselves:
"we dont care about anyone else"
i think you should refrain from ever having children because you
would be fucking shit parents."

Well I think that you would do well to `waste' your time for a bit
and read up on the posts, as I feel that some of the statements you
are making are misinformed as you are not up to date with current
developments. Maybe if you read our messages you might have more
respect for us?
Again, I would say that this forum is about as public as we can get-
if you have any suggestions please say.
I can't find where the quote you have used comes from, as I think it
may be taken out of context- I know that people do care about the
state of the school now and the present pupils, I have tried to prove
this in my posting.
A question/thought came from reading you message- Do you think that
if someone is abused as child then it will affect the rest of his or
her life? Maybe it can affect their ability to love, have
relationships or nurture a child. If this is true, then I believe
that gives even more strength to the case of the ex-pupils. But what
is the effect on the teachers/parents carrying out the abuse?
You are obviously a great believer of the use of abuse to back up a
point of view! Although I do find the evidence for your statements a
little shaky.
Sorry the post was so long, I hope you made it to the end
Adrasteia

My point is that as amember of the organisation you were expected to
tow the party line. But the party was a mess too! Whether or not all
the thus far quoted mis-demeanors were actually known about in the
headmasters study may be questionable, although the general ethos
of "beat it out of them", almost certainly was! If you're not trained
properly to deal with learning difficulties, for example, then you
can always misuse the philosophical teaching and claim that the
recalcitrant pupil is "denying the truth". To actually confront
issues related to learning difficulties, or dealing with children who
do not respond to unimaginative methods of teaching would have
involved consulting "experts" - these were to be avoided,
particularly if they were not members of the organisation. So these
teachers from the past who have been accused of unpleasant behaviour
towards children - beatings etc -did they have the mental space to
stop and ask themselves what they were doing? Did they have the
autonomy to say,"this isn't working in my classroom - i'll try
something else which may draw a more positive response - i'll suggest
that we consult someone who is actually trained to deal with these
issues". Those teachers will have been schooled in the thinking that
the ses had the answers to all the world's problems. If they thought
independently beyond a certain point, they would have been obliged to
leave. This does not excuse incontrolled use of force upon children,
but it is worth considering that maybe they too were victims of
arrogant thinking from above.

Now, there's a word that cannot be popular beyond a certain point in
the philosophy of ses or associated bodies; and it is a fact that in
those "old days" of the ses day schools, if you had a child there or
you taught there or you worked in the kitchen - or whatever - then
you did not complain through any of the usual channels. You
might "gossip" amongst your associates which would  earn you a poor
reputation in the ses heirarchy-particularly the mothers who were
often referred to as the root of all evils threatening the perfection
of the organisation. (more soon! earning a living etc calls!).

Well, i could waste my time reading that long message or actuly do
somethign better with my time and just say this, that is if u have a
problem with the schools or SES then why dont you try to actuly
voice them in public then to just post shit up here?
I have no respect for any of you and frankly at the moment i guess
im please that you guys got abused, because you have pointless
lives, all you want is things for yourselves:
"we dont care about anyone else"
i think you should refrain from ever having children because you
would be fucking shit parents.

The aim of my last post was not to spread rumour or malicious gossip,
merely to propose some alternate ideas to gibble gabble, although
yes, most are 'against' her original thoughts- there just happen to
be none I really agree with!
I can assure you there was no hatred involved while writing it, I'm
sorry if you picked any up while reading it, but I assure none was
intended or felt.
I assume that what upset most is what I have written about Mr.
Southwell?
This again was a part of a suggestion or alternative idea, I do not
believe I have actually said anything against him, and there was
certainly no intent to spread rumour or gossip. (I am still a little
unsure as to exactly what I have said on this point.) What I said
would refer to all the teachers involved at the time who are still
teaching now. I used Mr. Southwell's name as he was the teacher that
Gibble Gabble mentioned.
The question I was looking at in that part of the message -if you
take away the name Mr. Southwell- was does the past effect the
present? Gibble gabble was very dismissive of past events and the
testimonials from the past, but I put forward the idea that if she
had more knowledge about the past of the schools and/or teachers
she/he might feel differently, so in this way the past might be
relevant.
Gibble gabble also said that she was afraid for the reputation of the
day schools if people from the past kept speaking out. I would take
this further and say she should be concerned also for the reputations
of the teachers. But again I would say that a reputation is based on
the past actions of an individual, both good and bad. So is it a good
idea that the bad be hidden? As I feel I have demonstrated it is.
There are many strong examples of it being a dangerous thing- A more
recent one that came to mind was Ian Huntly, who was employed by a
school that knew nothing of his criminal record, with tragic results.
I feel that by stating that there was abuse of boys at St. Vedast and
later St. James I am not spreading rumour or gossip, I feel there is
enough proof from what is right here.
You mention the justice system. It is not the aim of the ex-pupils
concerned to sue St. James/Ses, as far as I know. They are dealing
directly with the people involved. But I would say that there are
difficulties in putting a case against Ses/St. James.
Although I have little experience of bringing court cases against
people, these are things I see as being problems-
Ses/St. James have far more money than anyone could have that would
be against them.
Many of the senior Ses members are lawyers, Mr. Lambie is himself, so
know far more about the law than anyone against them.
However, Frith Oliver, who's story is -somewhat sensationally- told
in the first chapter of `The Secret Cult', seems to have managed to
win her court case against the school, although it implies that this
was mostly done with the help of witnesses.
I think that witnesses to the then-children's stories would also be
hard to find, most would be dedicated Ses members, and therefore
unwilling to speak against the establishment. But as someone
mentioned we haven't had much feedback from parents so I don't know
how many of them would be supportive of their children's stories.
But I don't really know much about witnesses and court battles or
other families situations so I will stop now.
I hope that helps,
Adrasteia

Dear All,
This forum started out seemingly as a forum in which to air ones
gripes with a system that many/all of us have/are imersed in. People
commented on varied and interesting topics. It seems to me that it
has just become a vehicle for voicing ones personal vendettas and
hatred for a few people. If you think what happened to you was so
unjust: persue it in the proper way. In one religion, a crime on a
par with murder, idol worship, and incest and adultery, is evil
speech. This being, attacking someones reputation, or even, just
spreading rumours. The last post from Adriesta seemed to do just
this.
If you have unresolved issues, the UK is privelaged enough to have
an excellent system of justice.
Please ask yourself if anything is to be gained by spreading
malicious gossip. I would contend that it is only harming you!
Yours truly.

Gibble gabble wrote-
"Mr Chris Southwell, is am amazing sports teacher. I do not know what
was then, all I know is what is now, and i can most certainly claim
he is a fantastic sports teacher. Little do I like to run the whole
of Chiswick, or the 1500m run but that surely is good for our health
anyway."

If you were introduced to a new sports teacher that had been
prosecuted for behaving towards children in the ways that have been
described, but was also an amazing sports teacher, and would also
make you run around Chiswick and do the 1500m, would you still be as
enthusiastic about him? Just because you have not been subject to any
abuse yourself or have not heard of any of this history up until now
doesn't make his past any less blemished.
A Sports teacher with this type of history would/should not be able
to teach again, however good he is at his job? Well, you are evidence
that any spots on his record have been well hidden.
Why was there no complaint at the time?
Well most parents would have been in Ses -the school was founded for
the purpose of schooling primarily Ses children- and therefore
complaining would not have easy.
If you wish to have more evidence of how people felt at the time, how
children felt and more facts about the abuse that went on, you will
have to try and overcome your boredom for a little and find some time
to peruse both this site and the forum at:
www.forum.whyaretheydead.net
There is also a book `The Secret Cult', the first chapter of which is
available online –see the links on the menu on the left- which I have
been told deals with the abuse at the schools, although I have yet to
read it all.

 	 Gibble gabble wrote-
"I find it pathetic the way you are all going about this. To name and
shame them? Is that your aim? Well good luck to you all. You talk of
the old times, and the old times they were, but surely you old men,
would have wise ways to go about such things?
What do u exaclty want? To name and shame them till death does you
apart? Or will you come back to haunt us in sprit too, for these men
need to be named and shamed.. to infinity and beyond?
What this gibblegabblegobble is asking you is, how many of these
accounts are u willing to bore us with?"

I think you're probably clearer on people's aims now, but again I
would refer you to the sites.
I would proffer the opinion that the accounts mentioned have done
anything but bore you! Quite the opposite, they have prompted you to
post no less than three messages on this site! Such a reaction would
not come from boredom in my experience.
I am under the impression that you are still at St. James or at least
have been a pupil, and as such I do not believe that Mathew, Tom etc.
are holding you personally responsible for the abuse that took place,
I'm sure they will not be haunting you! Their business is with the
authority of St. James and Ses, and I hope that the negotiations that
they are in will end sooner rather than later. (Again please read up
on the site for more information or ask them any questions.)
Most people have been shocked by the accounts on this site, and I am
interested as to how you have found them "boring". Is it that you
believe them to be false? Do say.
You say that the people writing are "pathetic". I would argue that it
shows great strength to write what they are saying on a public
website, some of them have been very traumatised by the experience.
It leaves them open to criticism such as yours. I think it is
important that people that have things to say such as these are able
to have a platform with which to do so. Do you not think that it's
important for these things to be said? If it were you telling them,
would you also appreciate being listened to?

Gibble gabble also wrote-
"I am not the only one finding these posts pathertic and boring, why
do you rekcon, out of the 50 members signed on, only about 5 actually
post?"

I think that you'll find more than 5 actually post! It all depends on
whether you have something to say- if you have nothing to add to the
conversation, then generally you'll just follow it until you do.
(Katherine Watson and Mr. Lacey for example) People may not have time
to follow it very closely, or catch up on all the posts, like you, so
may be happy just to read what people have said every now and then. I
also think that a lot of people are quite happy just to follow
without taking part, possibly something to do with the anonymity I
should think. Or else people just have interest in what people are
saying without feeling the need to reply. Maybe they do find it
boring! Maybe some are still trying to find the courage to write, or
waiting for an opportunity. It doesn't really matter, as there are
still people like you and me who are willing to talk about what is
posted and post our opinions.


i90120i wrote-
"I presume your aim is to ensure no one else
gets the abuse that you all did when you were at St James?"

Gibble gabble replied-
"Do u really believe that this is their aim? I dont think they
slightly care for the present pupils.

As Mathew pointed out:
"We shall continue to be angry about this and speak out publicly
against St James, St Vedast, the SES, and all of it's affiliated
organisations (including those that continue to support, sponsor and
fund it), until some kind of justice is done."

These past pupils don't care about the present pupils! They just want
what they want, no matter how they get it. Even if it means ruining
the reputation of the day schools!"

The reputation of the day school- isn't a reputation built up through
an establishment's history? What if the history is not as squeaky
clean as it is made out to be? Then surely the reputation is
undeserved, hollow and empty?
If I start an argument about the present school it's going to go on
for pages! So I would refer you to www.forum.whyaretheydead.net, this
should help you:
Believe me, the present school is discussed there! There are even
some pupils there with their own testimonials, it's a little more
active than this site too, although this site seems very lively at
the moment!



MAtthew wrote:
"And anyway, we are not talking
about the way it is today, but the way it was for the previous
generation. "
Gibble gabble wrote-
So what happens today doesn't matter? It sure does matter, and i
reckon its more important how it is now than how it was then. But
then you dont care about the present day. You just want to live in
the "olden" times.

Does the past not effect the present? I think you'll find that many
of the pupils that went to St. Vedast/St. James have problems now
that have come from the past, the school itself may also have
problems from the past which would benefit being faced.
Concerning care of the present I think I would go back to my last
answer and ask you to read the discussions I have mentioned.

Gibble gabble wrote-
"I have no time to try and find your aims on all these forums, it
would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. Care to very
quickly summarise them again?"
Gibble gabble wrote-
"For which, my name is gibblegabblegobble, because any harsh
statements i might say, should be taken most light heartedly, for I
am nothing but gibblegabblegobble, and may only be speaking gooble--
de-gook."

With all due respect I feel that you should not be making harsh
statements without backing them up with facts or experience. If you
are going to say light-hearted things please say them in a light-
hearted manner.
This is a sensitive issue to many people, as you may have gathered,
and strong unfounded statements -which may be irrelevant or goble-de-
gook- can therefore be a bit out of place.
So I would ask you to respect others on the board that you might
receive the same respect in return.
I would also really urge you to read up on what people have said,
although I know you have limited time as you have said, they also may
not have time to summarise what has been said- there's been quite a
lot said as you noted.
Some of it is quite interesting if you can find the time to catch up.

All the best
Adrasteia

"Tackling and exploring the past is way of ENSURING THAT THE FUTURE
IS BETTER, as well as educating everyone along the way."


So Dan what are you doing to ensure that the future is brighter?
What are you all doing? All i have seen is you all complaining like
little children where the grown ups cant see you or hear you.

Is your aim to sue the schools/SES? If so what will it achive?


"don't be afraid to speak up"
Please don't encourage more people to inform us of how they were
beaten to a poll, its kinda got boring now and well i think most of
us just skip the messages that are like this, i know i do. Like I
have said stop complaining about it if you are not going to do
anything that you actuly say.

""We shall continue to be angry about this and speak out PUBLICLY
against St James, St Vedast, the SES, and all of it's affiliated
organisations (including those that CONTINUE TO SUPPORT, SPONSOR AND
FUND IT), until some kind of justice is done.""

Okay, well I'm sorry I didn't realise that that was their aim, if
that is their aim then they are doing a very poor job of it. When I
was at St. James I never received any letter (nor my parents),
seeing as I was a member of St. James and my parents paid my fees
and "supported, funded" the organisation. If you say your aims is to
speak publicly to those who fund the organisation then well your
failing quite badly.
Not only are they just complaining in privet in this forum, but they
haven't even tried to tell the main support of this evil
organisation, that is to say the parents of the students at these
schools.

If these people that going to "…continue to be angry…" don't care
about the school at present then I would really feel sorry for their
children, think about it, if they don't care about other people but
themselves then whose to know they aren't just going to abuse their
children, if they that are against the organisation argue that they
wouldn't do that to their children then why don't they care about
other children that COULD BE under the abuse of the schools. What
I'm trying to say is that their aims, Gibble Gabble, can not just be
the ones that you have copied and pasted.

Don't get me wrong I am not for this organisation I just believe
that your aims are not very clear and you are going about getting
your aims occurring all wrong.

""We shall continue to be angry about this and speak out PUBLICLY
against St James, St Vedast, the SES, and all of it's affiliated
organisations (including those that CONTINUE TO SUPPORT, SPONSOR AND
FUND IT), until some kind of justice is done.""

Okay, well I'm sorry I didn't realise that that was their aim, if
that is their aim then they are doing a very poor job of it. When I
was at St. James I never received any letter (nor my parents),
seeing as I was a member of St. James and my parents paid my fees
and "supported, funded" the organisation. If you say your aims is to
speak publicly to those who fund the organisation then well your
failing quite badly.
Not only are they just complaining in privet in this forum, but they
haven't even tried to tell the main support of this evil
organisation, that is to say the parents of the students at these
schools.

If these people that going to "…continue to be angry…" don't care
about the school at present then I would really feel sorry for their
children, think about it, if they don't care about other people but
themselves then whose to know they aren't just going to abuse their
children, if they that are against the organisation argue that they
wouldn't do that to their children then why don't they care about
other children that COULD BE under the abuse of the schools. What
I'm trying to say is that their aims, Gibble Gabble, can not just be
the ones that you have copied and pasted.

Don't get me wrong I am not for this organisation I just believe
that your aims are not very clear and you are going about getting
your aims occurring all wrong.

Why won't you use your name, even a first one?

For your information there are a group of african-americans who are
currently taking legal action ( in response to abuse of their ancestors)
against Lloyds of London for insuring slave ships 180 years ago! It is quite
likely they will be successful.

So I am afraid to tell you that because 'abuse happened in the past' - its
effects do not go away. It is perfectly right for us to take issue to the
way we treated 25 years ago. Most of the people involved are still alive.
Tackling and exploring the past is way of ensuring that the future is
better, as well as educating everyone along the way. Don't dismiss our
efforts against the SES because it has a very sinister side to it which has
never been acknowledged by its top brass and many of its members. The
errible things that were/are done by the SES have been well documented. It
indoctrinates at a very deep level using group hypnosis (meditation) as a
tool.

don't be afraid to speak up

Dan Salaman


>From: anti_ses@...
>Reply-To: anti_ses@...
>To: anti_ses@...
>Subject: [anti_ses] Digest Number 39
>Date: 16 May 2004 13:22:49 -0000
>
>There is 1 message in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. (unknown)
>            From: "i90210i" <i90210i@...>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
>    Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 12:58:13 -0000
>    From: "i90210i" <i90210i@...>
>Subject: (unknown)
>
>As much as I would love to slag off the SES and St. James Schools
>about all the matters that have been brought up, I feel that they
>are all just in the past. I am a person that for some reason or
>another just doesn't like the SES at all, but the conversations that
>have taken place here are just making me care less about the whole
>situation.
>
>All organisations encounter some problems in its time, there is no
>perfect organisation. You don't criticise a country for its past
>attitudes on slaver do you? Every country has had its fair share of
>slavery among its people but do we go round saying that England is
>shit and all the criticize it, no because its all in the past, and
>now look at England its no a bad place to be compared to other
>places.
>
>To argue with "anti-ses" I would have to say that there are still
>some teachers in this school that shouldn't be. Colin Russell I do
>remember to be a sadistic person, and as Zaw Erskine said "…hung
>them up on coat hangers by their collars…" that was true and I was
>there when he did it to someone. Another account is of another
>teacher, who I believe is still "teaching" in the junior school, who
>bruised a boy and made him bleed severely because he spoke out of
>turn. Although these incidents were in the past, wouldn't it be nice
>if a review of all the teachers were done by an independent
>organisation to see if the teachers are fit to teach, hold on there
>was one just this year in the boys school, and it seemed like it
>passed it, correct me if I am wrong.
>I am guessing there is going to be someone on here that's going to
>argue that during inspections schools always put on a show, well why
>don't we just interview selected students in every year of all the
>schools and just obtain information about the teachers that way?
>Just a suggestion to any of the governors of the school who may read
>this
>
>What I'm trying to say out of all the that stuff above, is that the
>past is the past and well St. James has changed from what it was
>before, and if you don't believe us then why don't you come and see?
>I'm sure Katharine Watson could arrange for those of you that have
>doubts about the school to see what it is like now. Those of you
>that have doubt could even talk to the teachers that used to abuse
>and just see what they are like now. I don't see the good in talking
>about all this on here when none of you have taken the steps to see
>what it is like now. I presume your aim is to ensure no one else
>gets the abuse that you all did when you were at St James? (I
>presume, because I just can't be arsed to read all the posts before
>this one and that other forum).
>So how about it Katharine, would you organise such a meeting for
>these worried ex-pupils?
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
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>
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