Why won't you use your name, even a first one?

For your information there are a group of african-americans who are
currently taking legal action ( in response to abuse of their ancestors)
against Lloyds of London for insuring slave ships 180 years ago! It is quite
likely they will be successful.

So I am afraid to tell you that because 'abuse happened in the past' - its
effects do not go away. It is perfectly right for us to take issue to the
way we treated 25 years ago. Most of the people involved are still alive.
Tackling and exploring the past is way of ensuring that the future is
better, as well as educating everyone along the way. Don't dismiss our
efforts against the SES because it has a very sinister side to it which has
never been acknowledged by its top brass and many of its members. The
errible things that were/are done by the SES have been well documented. It
indoctrinates at a very deep level using group hypnosis (meditation) as a
tool.

don't be afraid to speak up

Dan Salaman


>From: anti_ses@...
>Reply-To: anti_ses@...
>To: anti_ses@...
>Subject: [anti_ses] Digest Number 39
>Date: 16 May 2004 13:22:49 -0000
>
>There is 1 message in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. (unknown)
>            From: "i90210i" <i90210i@...>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
>    Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 12:58:13 -0000
>    From: "i90210i" <i90210i@...>
>Subject: (unknown)
>
>As much as I would love to slag off the SES and St. James Schools
>about all the matters that have been brought up, I feel that they
>are all just in the past. I am a person that for some reason or
>another just doesn't like the SES at all, but the conversations that
>have taken place here are just making me care less about the whole
>situation.
>
>All organisations encounter some problems in its time, there is no
>perfect organisation. You don't criticise a country for its past
>attitudes on slaver do you? Every country has had its fair share of
>slavery among its people but do we go round saying that England is
>shit and all the criticize it, no because its all in the past, and
>now look at England its no a bad place to be compared to other
>places.
>
>To argue with "anti-ses" I would have to say that there are still
>some teachers in this school that shouldn't be. Colin Russell I do
>remember to be a sadistic person, and as Zaw Erskine said "…hung
>them up on coat hangers by their collars…" that was true and I was
>there when he did it to someone. Another account is of another
>teacher, who I believe is still "teaching" in the junior school, who
>bruised a boy and made him bleed severely because he spoke out of
>turn. Although these incidents were in the past, wouldn't it be nice
>if a review of all the teachers were done by an independent
>organisation to see if the teachers are fit to teach, hold on there
>was one just this year in the boys school, and it seemed like it
>passed it, correct me if I am wrong.
>I am guessing there is going to be someone on here that's going to
>argue that during inspections schools always put on a show, well why
>don't we just interview selected students in every year of all the
>schools and just obtain information about the teachers that way?
>Just a suggestion to any of the governors of the school who may read
>this
>
>What I'm trying to say out of all the that stuff above, is that the
>past is the past and well St. James has changed from what it was
>before, and if you don't believe us then why don't you come and see?
>I'm sure Katharine Watson could arrange for those of you that have
>doubts about the school to see what it is like now. Those of you
>that have doubt could even talk to the teachers that used to abuse
>and just see what they are like now. I don't see the good in talking
>about all this on here when none of you have taken the steps to see
>what it is like now. I presume your aim is to ensure no one else
>gets the abuse that you all did when you were at St James? (I
>presume, because I just can't be arsed to read all the posts before
>this one and that other forum).
>So how about it Katharine, would you organise such a meeting for
>these worried ex-pupils?
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
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>
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_________________________________________________________________
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In reply to i90120i:

"I presume your aim is to ensure no one else
gets the abuse that you all did when you were at St James?"

Do u really believe that this is their aim? I dont think they slightly care
for the present pupils.

As Mathew pointed out:

"We shall continue to be angry about this and speak out publicly against
St James, St Vedast, the SES, and all of it's affiliated
organisations (including those that continue to support, sponsor and
fund it), until some kind of justice is done."

These past pupils don't care  about the present pupils! They just want what
they want, no matter how they get it. Even if it means ruining the
reputation of the day schools!

gobblegabblegibblegobblegebblegubblegoo.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

As much as I would love to slag off the SES and St. James Schools
about all the matters that have been brought up, I feel that they
are all just in the past. I am a person that for some reason or
another just doesn't like the SES at all, but the conversations that
have taken place here are just making me care less about the whole
situation.

All organisations encounter some problems in its time, there is no
perfect organisation. You don't criticise a country for its past
attitudes on slaver do you? Every country has had its fair share of
slavery among its people but do we go round saying that England is
shit and all the criticize it, no because its all in the past, and
now look at England its no a bad place to be compared to other
places.

To argue with "anti-ses" I would have to say that there are still
some teachers in this school that shouldn't be. Colin Russell I do
remember to be a sadistic person, and as Zaw Erskine said "…hung
them up on coat hangers by their collars…" that was true and I was
there when he did it to someone. Another account is of another
teacher, who I believe is still "teaching" in the junior school, who
bruised a boy and made him bleed severely because he spoke out of
turn. Although these incidents were in the past, wouldn't it be nice
if a review of all the teachers were done by an independent
organisation to see if the teachers are fit to teach, hold on there
was one just this year in the boys school, and it seemed like it
passed it, correct me if I am wrong.
I am guessing there is going to be someone on here that's going to
argue that during inspections schools always put on a show, well why
don't we just interview selected students in every year of all the
schools and just obtain information about the teachers that way?
Just a suggestion to any of the governors of the school who may read
this

What I'm trying to say out of all the that stuff above, is that the
past is the past and well St. James has changed from what it was
before, and if you don't believe us then why don't you come and see?
I'm sure Katharine Watson could arrange for those of you that have
doubts about the school to see what it is like now. Those of you
that have doubt could even talk to the teachers that used to abuse
and just see what they are like now. I don't see the good in talking
about all this on here when none of you have taken the steps to see
what it is like now. I presume your aim is to ensure no one else
gets the abuse that you all did when you were at St James? (I
presume, because I just can't be arsed to read all the posts before
this one and that other forum).
So how about it Katharine, would you organise such a meeting for
these worried ex-pupils?

In response to Zaw, thank you for your interesting posting. I
haven't set eyes on Barrington Barber in over 25 years, but I can
tell you quite categorically that in the time he brutalised us, he
was most definitely a sadist, as were several other of
the "teachers" at St Vedast. Like I said to Gibble Gabble, maybe
these men have seen the errors of their previous ways. They may well
be reformed, but absolved - most definitely not. As already said in
a previous posting, absolution can only happen through those
concerned really facing up to, and fully acknowledging, the
destructive and utterly demonic nature of their conduct, and
confessing as much to those who suffered such terrible damage at
their hands. The gross hypocrisy, it seems to me, is that it's the
SES that's constantly preaching about "Sanskara", yet this is
exactly the thing that they have been guilty of. If there is one
principle in life that any school worthy of the name should strive
to pass on to it's pupils, is that of personal responsibility and
accountability for one's own actions. To this day, those involved,
including head teachers who carry final authority for everything
done in their schools, have never openly acknowledged their personal
responsibility for their actions.

Ummm, who said anything about naming and shaming? Wasnt me, think
youve got the wrong person there Gibble Gabble. And no, naming and
shaming is not our aim. If you read the postings on here and Mike
Gormez's forum, we make it quite clear what are aims are. And
anyway, who are you? By choosing not to reveal your identity, for
all we know you could be anyone, so why should we give any credence
to anything you say here? And quite frankly, if you're finding our
testimonies "boring", perhaps you should stop bothering to read them
and go and find something else to do that interests you more.

As for Chris Southwell, in your opinion, being "an amazing
sports teacher", well he may well be that today. Perhaps he has seen
the error of his ways. But I and very many others, can assure you,
that he was anything but "amazing" in the days he and Barber used to
persecute us in the "sports" classes. And anyway, we are not talking
about the way it is today, but the way it was for the previous
generation.

And if you think someone in their 30's is an "old man", how would
you describe someone say in their 50's, 60's, 70's or beyond? Are
you an ageist as well as an apologist? Or does Gibble-Gabble like to
speak gobble-dy-gook?

"Then of course
there was Chris Southwell, Mr Howell, and Mr Farndell who were all
just as vicious and nasty in their own way, especially Southwell. "

Mr Chris Southwell, is am amazing sports teacher. I do not know what was
then, all I know is what is now, and i can most certainly claim he is a
fantastic sports teacher. Little do I like to run the whole of Chiswick, or
the 1500m run but that surely is good for our health anyway.

"It's about TIME that all these men were named and shamed."

I find it pathetic the way you are all going about this.  To name and shame
them? Is that your aim? Well good luck to you all. You talk of the old
times, and the old times they were, but surely you old men, would have wise
ways to go about such things?

What do u exaclty want? To name and shame them till death does you apart? Or
will you come back to haunt us in sprit too, for these men need to be named
and shamed.. to infinity and beyond?

What this gibblegabblegobble is asking you is, how many of these accounts
are u willing to bore us with?

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

Anger - The legacy of St Vedast

We are now grown men in our thirties, some of us even married and
with children. But we are still very, very ANGRY about this. We
shall continue to be angry about this and speak out publicly against
St James, St Vedast, the SES, and all of it's affiliated
organisations (including those that continue to support, sponsor and
fund it), until some kind of justice is done. A justice that all the
ex-pupils will be satisfied with. What went on at that cult was
wholly wrong and utterly indefensible. It would be completely
unthinkable for such things to take place in todays schools, yet
only 25 years ago this was exactly the reality that we, as children,
were forced to be put through. And to think that in all this time
that has since elapsed, these men have been allowed to completely
get away with it - some of them still even being employed by this
elitist, antiquated and nontransparent organisation. THIS is what
makes us so angry. These men have to be made to realise what the
consequences of their actions were, and then see if they can still
live with their consciences, and sleep peacefully at night. A gross
injustice has taken place here, but rest assured, true justice is
not too far away now.

Thank you Alex for yet another excellent account of what life was
like at St Vedast. What impresses me most about it is the complete
lack of any kind of exaggeration. You describe it frankly, exactly
like it happened and you're completely honest when you didn't
witness something first hand, but just heard about it, which makes
it all the more personal and poignant. What particularly moves me is
how you describe it in a way that enables me to imagine exactly what
it was like for you as a child. In other words I got completely into
your body as you must have experienced these events as an 11 year
old.

I remember Matthew Knight very well, and seeing him in tears on
several occasions, at least twice, outside Debenham's study either
about to receive the cane, or having just had it. I remember feeling
so sorry for him but at the same time knowing that I was powerless
to help him. I also vividly remember the strange way Debenham would
blow into his fist, and always took out his handkerchief to blow his
nose. That man had, and I'm sure still has, serious issues, the
barbaric Barrington Barber was a vicious sadist, and this confirms
in my mind that Russell was just downright evil. Then of course
there was Chris Southwell, Mr Howell, and Mr Farndell who were all
just as vicious and nasty in their own way, especially Southwell.
Even after I'd managed to escape that evil, insidious and miserable
hell-hole of a place (both the SES and St Vedast), my peers tell me
that the likes of Mr Capper, Mr Hipshon, Mr Matthews, Mr Lacey and
Mr Skinner continued with the abuse.

St Vedast (now St James):- Alex Woolf's Testimony

I do not write the following testimony for myself. i.e. I get no
pleasure from it, nor any sense of catharsis. These are some of the
incidents that I've retained in my head. But it's really the tip of
the iceberg. There was more, and worse, but I think I've forgotten
most of it, or only remember it vaguely. Stories like these and the
ones that Matthew, Dan, Tom, and others have told give some of the
picture, but only those who were there can know what it was really
like.

I attended St Vedast School for four years, from the ages of 11 to
15 (1975-1979). I was in the most senior class, and among the first
intake of pupils at that school. My form master was Colin Russell.
He was a short, stocky man, with intense blue-grey eyes, and he
radiated power. As a class we feared him. He could be jovial and
amusing one minute, and very cold and brutal the next.

He liked to be impulsive, unpredictable and surprising. I remember
once looking over my shoulder at another boy's work (something
admittedly I shouldn't have been doing), and getting whacked
incredibly hard across the face by Mr Russell's open hand. I recall
the dreadful shock of this as much as the pain, and the prolonged
ringing sound in my ear. One morning, Mr Russell came into the room
and told us that we all stank, and ordered us down to the shower
room for ice-cold showers. That was the sort of man he was.

Mr Russell's speciality was picking on one person and humiliating
him in front of the class. His most frequent victim was a boy called
Paul Hithersay, who had problems with maths. Mr Russell would make
him stand at the blackboard and order him in the most menacing tones
to do a particular calculation. I don't know if Paul would have been
capable of doing the calculation in any circumstances, but of
course, under so much pressure, the boy's mind simply froze. The
minutes would tick by in excruciating silence. Paul might giggle in
embarrassment. He would sometimes try to write something, anything,
on the board; inevitably it would be completely wrong. It was
torture to sit through those sessions, and it must have been ten
times worse for Paul.

I developed a bad stammer when I was at St Vedast, which I attribute
directly to the fear I experienced day after day in Mr Russell's
classroom. The stammer made reading aloud in class a humiliating
experience, and I became the object of one particular boy's mockery.

From my own point of view, Mr Russell was the worst, because he was
the cleverest. He got inside our heads, and preyed on our fears.
Perhaps under hypnosis I would remember more, but I really don't
want to go there.

Another teacher I had frequent dealings with was Barrington Barber,
who took us for circuit training and boxing. Mr Barber worked us
extremely hard, and consequently we were fairly fit. I remember that
some boys suspected that Mr Barber deliberately chose mismatched
opponents for boxing bouts, because he enjoyed seeing a good
beating. However, I don't actually remember much evidence of that.
There was one occasion, however, when a small boy, I forget who, was
paired with Dominic Best, the strongest boy in the school. Mr Barber
put a skipping rope around Dominic's waist and would pull him back
if he thought Best was becoming too violent. I remember all of us
laughing, including Mr Barber. I don't remember the smaller boy
getting badly hurt in the process. It must have been an unnerving
experience, though.

Several ropes dangled from the ceiling in the gym where these
lessons took place. One day, during a circuit training session, Mr
Barber picked up the end of one of these ropes and said to us (or
words to this effect): 'You are not working hard enough. I'm going
to time you, and if any of you isn't sweating after sixty seconds of
exercise, I will beat you with this rope.' We all redoubled our
efforts at running on the spot, burpees, star jumps, etc, to try to
ensure a flow of perspiration. I saw some boys licking their palms
and smearing their brows with saliva. I didn't do this, however,
being fairly confident I could work up an honest sweat. However,
when sixty seconds was up, my skin must have still been dry, because
Mr Barber took one look at me, then told me to bend over. The rope
ends were sealed with leather, and the pain was intense.

I was better than most at avoiding beatings, essentially because I
knew when to keep my head down and lie low. One particular teacher,
Diana Picton, had problems controlling the class, and she was
instructed to send anyone who misbehaved even slightly, to the
headmaster for a beating. We were often told by Mr Russell that our
aim in life was to be 'a white dot on a white piece of paper', and
that was exactly what I became during her classes. Others were less
able to adapt, and in one lesson, no less than three boys were sent
off for a caning. One of them, Matthew Knight, momentarily forgot -
or did not hear - that Miss Picton had called for silence. He asked
his neighbour if he could borrow a rubber, and was sent straight to
the headmaster. He came back fifteen minutes later, limping slightly
and moaning with pain.

It was not only in Miss Picton's classes that boys found themselves
being caned for minor offences. Some fell foul of the 'black mark'
system. There was a chart in our classroom with each of our names in
alphabetical order. Every time a boy committed an offence in the
eyes of the teacher, a black mark was placed next to their name on
the chart. When a boy had amassed twenty black marks, he was caned,
no matter how insignificant the final misdemeanour. At the end of
each term, the chart was wiped clean, but I remember that several
boys - on eighteen or nineteen black marks - were forced to live for
weeks at a time in perilous proximity to a caning.

My only experience of the headmaster's cane occurred one Monday
morning. The previous Saturday, I had been on detention - I don't
remember why. Mr Russell was supervising us, but was called away on
some business. He told us to complete the work we had been set, and
he would be back in a little while to collect it. Time went by, and
there was no sign of him. I had completed the work, and was getting
anxious because I knew my father had bought football tickets for an
FA Cup tie at Loftus Road that afternoon: QPR versus Manchester
City. Eventually I gave my work to a fellow detainee, and asked him
to hand it to Mr Russell and explain why I hadn't been able to wait.

The following Monday, Mr Russell called me to the front of the class
and asked me to explain why I hadn't been there when he returned. I
started to explain about the football match. He said he knew all
about the football match, but that was no excuse for disobedience.
He told me to go to the headmaster. My heart sank. I couldn't
actually believe I was going to be caned for this. Surely I had
acted reasonably in the circumstances. The headmaster, Nicholas
Debenham, was not in his study when I arrived there. He was taking
assembly for St James. I had to wait for half an hour outside his
study - perhaps the longest thirty minutes of my life. When he
finally arrived, he asked me to step inside. I stood in the middle
of his study while he paced around, and blew on his clenched right
fist. I suppose he must have been talking as well, lecturing me
about the importance of obedience, but I really don't remember a
word he said, just the way he blew on his fist. Then he went over to
a cabinet, opened a drawer and extracted a thin, bendy cane, which
he swished a bit, testing its flexibility. He told me to bend over.
I did so. Then he asked me to move because he didn't have sufficient
room for a good swing. I moved, then shut my eyes and waited for the
stinging blow. I received six strokes, each one like white fire,
ripping through me. One or two landed on the same place, doubling
the agony. When it was over, I straightened, and, without looking at
him or acknowledging him, simply left his study. Maybe this was rude
of me, but I thought if I looked at him I might cry, and I didn't
want him to see that. The heat those blows generated was intense,
and the pain stayed with me all day. Later, in the shower, I showed
off the bruises to fellow pupils. I may have tried to act brave and
uncaring, but inside I felt angry, humiliated, and wronged.

We were told time and again about how lucky we were to attend this
school, St Vedast. 'We are offering you the key to heaven on a
golden plate', they told us. And yet I remember on more than one
occasion sitting there in those cold, brutal rooms in 92 Queensgate,
and thinking that I had never in my whole life felt further from
heaven than I did right then.

Yes sorry, just found it!
cheers anyway

I think I should put the address of Mike Gomez's Ses forum here as it
is much more busy than this one, and people who have been following
this may wish to follow the other, there are some interesting things:
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=7
It's in the links as well though.
Although I'm happy to talk here there doesn't seem to be anyone to
talk to,(Tom is on the other site too) but I'm always willing!

The 'why are they dead bit' will be explained if you go to
www.whyaretheydead.net, nothing to do with Ses in case you were
worrying!

adrasteia

--- In anti_ses@..., "Tom Grubb" <tahg@a...> wrote:
> Go to newyork.urbanbaby.com
>
> Click on "join our community" then on "schools" under "message
> boards".
>
> When you get to the board run a search on "Lincoln".
>
> Thanks to Jack-o-lantern at Mike Gormez's SES forum for the info!
>
>
> --- In anti_ses@..., "adrasteia_778"
> <adrasteia_778@y...> wrote:
> > I can't find anything on the net that says anything about it
> closing?
> > But I'm probably not looking in the right place. Have you got an
> > address with more details. Also, I was wondering what the reason
> was?
> > cheers
> > adrasteia
> >
> > --- In anti_ses@..., "Tom Grubb" <tahg@a...> wrote:
> > > I may be speaking too soon but, as far as I can gather from
> > > information on the Internet, it seems that the Abraham Lincoln
> > School
> > > in New York is closing down. This school is/was strongly
> connected
> > to
> > > the School of Philosophy, the American version of the SES cult.

Go to newyork.urbanbaby.com

Click on "join our community" then on "schools" under "message
boards".

When you get to the board run a search on "Lincoln".

Thanks to Jack-o-lantern at Mike Gormez's SES forum for the info!


--- In anti_ses@..., "adrasteia_778"
<adrasteia_778@y...> wrote:
> I can't find anything on the net that says anything about it
closing?
> But I'm probably not looking in the right place. Have you got an
> address with more details. Also, I was wondering what the reason
was?
> cheers
> adrasteia
>
> --- In anti_ses@..., "Tom Grubb" <tahg@a...> wrote:
> > I may be speaking too soon but, as far as I can gather from
> > information on the Internet, it seems that the Abraham Lincoln
> School
> > in New York is closing down. This school is/was strongly
connected
> to
> > the School of Philosophy, the American version of the SES cult.

I can't find anything on the net that says anything about it closing?
But I'm probably not looking in the right place. Have you got an
address with more details. Also, I was wondering what the reason was?
cheers
adrasteia

--- In anti_ses@..., "Tom Grubb" <tahg@a...> wrote:
> I may be speaking too soon but, as far as I can gather from
> information on the Internet, it seems that the Abraham Lincoln
School
> in New York is closing down. This school is/was strongly connected
to
> the School of Philosophy, the American version of the SES cult.

I may be speaking too soon but, as far as I can gather from
information on the Internet, it seems that the Abraham Lincoln School
in New York is closing down. This school is/was strongly connected to
the School of Philosophy, the American version of the SES cult.

The following anti_ses poll is now closed.  Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: What has the SES given you?

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Calmer life, 1 votes, 7.14%
- Wisdom, 1 votes, 7.14%
- Spiritual Enlightenment, 2 votes, 14.29%
- Friends, 1 votes, 7.14%
- Respect for Mr Lambie, 0 votes, 0.00%
- Direction in life, 0 votes, 0.00%
- A fright, 0 votes, 0.00%
- A deep skepticism of all things religious, 3 votes, 21.43%
- Boredom, 1 votes, 7.14%
- Fervent hatred of hypocrisy, 5 votes, 35.71%

INDIVIDUAL VOTES
- Calmer life
      - vita_canicula_est@...
- Wisdom
      - vita_canicula_est@...
- Spiritual Enlightenment
      - cocabutter1@...
      - vita_canicula_est@...
- Friends
      - vita_canicula_est@...
- Respect for Mr Lambie
- Direction in life
- A fright
- A deep skepticism of all things religious
      - adrasteia_778@...
      - jdupille@...
      - vita_canicula_est@...
- Boredom
      - anti_ses@...
- Fervent hatred of hypocrisy
      - adrasteia_778@...
      - anti_ses@...
      - jdupille@...
      - celeskosystems@...
      - vita_canicula_est@...


For more information about this group, please visit
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/anti_ses

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/uk/groups/

I know that things have altered in appearance, ie. corporal
punishment etc, but what is still the same? Can it ever change?

I notice there was not much response to gadflys_dreams message. Can
anyone answer the questions or argue against what was implied? It
worries me I supposed that no-one has immediately shouted it down.

An interesting site-
         the SES's take on the Saint James' schools:
http://www.schooleconomicscience.org/new/studies/education.htm

It basically admits the links between the Schools:

One aim of the school: "to increase the effectiveness of teachers by
systematic, philosophically based study of the subjects taught in
schools. This activity has continued to the present day, and during
each summer holiday teachers meet for a residential study period to
broaden and deepen their knowledge of their subjects."

This implies most Teachers are 'taught' more about their subjects on
philosophy residentals. I can't see this being broadcast on the St.
James' school website. This is an undeniable link: the day school is
portrayed as a vehical for Ses philosphy to be put into practice.
It seems very clear to me that this the result.

Who pulls the strings in St. James?

The facts:
Most of the Governors are Ses members.
The headteachers are all Ses members.
Most teachers are Ses members.
All Ses members have tutors who themselves have tutors etc. until you
reach Mr. Lambi- the head of the school.

All very well, but this is separate from St. James?
The schools were founded by the Ses, and therefore share many
founding principles and it's philosphy.
There is no trial foundation group weekend, or any other chance
to 'see what it's like', as there is for younger philosophy groups.
This is because having a St. James education is supposed to have
given you the experience of what it is like.
The article above shows that teachers use Ses philosophy to improve
their knowledge of their subject. This philosophy, and guidlines on
how to live your life to the full all come from your tutor('s tutor's
tutor etc.)

What is that suggesting to you about string pulling!? I know I may be
being quite sensationalist, but the idea does suggest itself!

Possibly this is all a good thing. Ses philosphy may be actively
influencing the school for the better, but if this is the case why
must they hide?

I must stop now, exausted! Think I may have written quite a lot of
nonsense...but I feel better for doing it. I'll read it when it gets
put up on here and groan!
But love to all,
All the best

As a survivor of St Vedast boys' school, many of my grievances are
indeed related to the use of corporal punishment at the school. But
even if there had been no corporal punishment at St Vedast, it would
still have been a highly unpleasant place. A lot of the violence was
mental rather than physical in nature. The use of verbal humiliation,
anger and ridicule was commonplace. This was employed against those
who offended by being 'idle', 'weak' or 'fat', those who had the
wrong shape of foot (I'm not joking!) and those who dared to question
SES orthodoxy on any matter.

Of course, the constant threat of physical violence made the mental
violence all the more effective! By the way, on the subject of
corporal punishment, I wonder just how legal some of it actually was.
Even if the limited use of the cane was (to Britain's shame) legally
permitted in certain schools at the time, I very much doubt if caning
on the bare buttocks, hand blows to the head and the use of
punishment implements such as ropes would have fallen within the law.


--- In anti_ses@..., "gadflys_dreams"
<gadflys_dreams@y...> wrote:
> I note that most of the grievances cited from the dark ages of the
> SES Day Schools appear to be related to corporal punishment-i.e. we
> don't appear to have heard from many-if any-of the girls of that
era.
> Were the girls free of the "brain washing" etc; were they all happy
> like Katherine's girls? Are they too busy bringing up their own
> children at the moment to even know about this site? Would be good
to
> hear from the girls end! Meanwhile the physical abuse of the lads
was
> indeed a disgrace-at least that is outlawed now----but what powers
of
> physical abuse are still in the hands of the prefects.
> So are we saying that the physical abuse was the issue. On the
> positive side I note that the comraderie that seems to exist for a
> sustained period amongst those who have been class mates at these
> schools-is this in part a method of protection---is it also a
result
> of the system of keeping a single form teacher for a far longer
> period than is common in other schools?
> Who runs St.James? Who decides the curriculum, the length of day
etc?
> No-not only on the face of it, but in reality! How do you become a
> Governor of these particular schools?

I note that most of the grievances cited from the dark ages of the
SES Day Schools appear to be related to corporal punishment-i.e. we
don't appear to have heard from many-if any-of the girls of that era.
Were the girls free of the "brain washing" etc; were they all happy
like Katherine's girls? Are they too busy bringing up their own
children at the moment to even know about this site? Would be good to
hear from the girls end! Meanwhile the physical abuse of the lads was
indeed a disgrace-at least that is outlawed now----but what powers of
physical abuse are still in the hands of the prefects.
So are we saying that the physical abuse was the issue. On the
positive side I note that the comraderie that seems to exist for a
sustained period amongst those who have been class mates at these
schools-is this in part a method of protection---is it also a result
of the system of keeping a single form teacher for a far longer
period than is common in other schools?
Who runs St.James? Who decides the curriculum, the length of day etc?
No-not only on the face of it, but in reality! How do you become a
Governor of these particular schools?

Dear Katherine,

I just wanted to add, I fully accept and believe you when you say
you were not brainwashed. Thank God there were at least some with a
degree of discernment. However that was (and possibly still is)
quite apparently not the case for many other members/parents. Those
that were not brainwashed were certainly hoodwinked - this is
unfortunately what cults do. Unless of course they took some kind of
perverse pleasure in witnessing their own children suffer as we did.
There has been a real silence from the parent-generation, my guess
is that many are still in a state denial about their role in all of
this. I've spoken to my many of my contempories on this subject and
we all remember as kids the way our parents used to come back from
the residential weeks..........completely SES brainwashed!!

I would like to thank you for your reply Katherine. You do seem like
one of the few of your generation showing genuine concern and
unblinkeredness.

Best wishes,

Matthew

Dear adrasteia_778,
'separate organisations' with undeniable and inextricable ties,
therefore perhaps not entirely "leaving the Ses untouched and un-
blemished".

Dear Katherine,
Thank you for your reply, it is appreciated,

Matthew

Dear Matthew

You are right.  I would have been appalled.  But as you say, I wasn't there.  My
early experience of St James was exclusively of the girls' school, where my
daughter was very happy - although she did, and we did, question a lot of
things.   We were not brainwashed.  We chose St James because my
daughter was unhappy at the school she was attending .  We went to visit St
James just after it had started and she immediately said she wanted to go
there.  I never had any cause to regret that decision as far as my own children
were concerned.  I am very sorry that you and so many others had such a bad
experience.  I can absolutely understand your anger.

When I said I wanted to apologise, I did not intend to speak for anyone but
myself - and the reason I feel I have something to aplogise for is that, as I
said
in an earlier post, I was one of the people whose idea it was to start St
Vedast.
If I had had any idea that it would lead to abuses such as you describe I would
have been horrified.

I'm glad that you have managed to find some healing through your music.  I'm
aware, however, that there is a great need for some sort of 'truth and
reconciliation' thing such as you suggest to happen.  I very much hope that it
will soon.  I can't say anything more for now, except that, as I said, I intend
to
do what I can to see that it does happen.

Katharine



--- In anti_ses@..., "Matthew" <clavinetd6@h...> wrote:
> To Katherine and any other SES members (past or present),
>
> If you had been truly aware of some of the things that were ACTUALLY
> going on at St James at the time, somehow I doubt that you and
> everyone else would have been so "excited at the possibilities it
> seemed to be opening up". I'd like to point out that in some
> instances St James was equally as abusive as St Vedast. I was good
> friends with one St James pupil who was beaten several times at the
> the age of 5! I will not go into the details of why this happened as
> this would be up to him to do so. Suffice to say it was invariably
> for "misdemeanours" that were entirely not of his own making. He has
> recently told me that he'll soon be publishing his testimony on the
> http://www.whyaretheydead.net/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=7 forum.
>
> I would also like to point out that before I was sent to St Vedast I
> attended a state school called Malorees in Brondesbury, North/West
> London (as mentioned at the top of my original thread). It was quite
> simply an absolutely fantastic school. I was blissfully happy there,
> had made many very close friends, lived nearby, was making excellent
> progress academically (I was the first to read in my class). In fact
> it was so popular many parents found it very difficult to get their
> children into it. There was certainly NO EVIDENCE of it "getting
> more and more destructured and teaching less and less". Quite the
> contrary in fact. We had a wonderful head-master, a true role-model
> and a real grand-father figure whom all the children loved and
> really looked up to, and the same went for many of the teachers too.
> Overall there was a real feeling of fun and joy about the place. You
> only need to read it's message-board at the FriendsReunited site to
> understand what I mean:-
> http://www.friendsreunited.co.uk/friendsreunited.aspwci=forumadd&
bb_key=17&bb_type=S&school_key=146190
> Of course this was just one school I hear you cry, but somehow I
> find it very hard to believe that Malorees was a complete exception.
> I understand your daughters had a different experience at their
> first school, but that doesn't mean the majority of comprehensives
> were sub-standard. And even if many of them were, this can in
> ABSOLUTELY NO WAY be a any kind of excuse or justification for the
> brain-washing of the parents by the SES convincing them to send
> their children to these places, and then for the systematic child-
> abuse of these children that followed. Reasons - yes, excuses -
> definitely not. Intentions? Well, I guess "The road to Hell is paved
> with good intentions".
>
> The parents were then far too indoctrinated into the system to even
> realise what was happening to their own children, let alone actually
> do anything about it. It was left to many of us to run away or
> refuse to return, simply for our own survival's sake. Anyway you
> must be able to imagine how I felt on being plucked out of Malorees
> and deposited into the living-hell of St Vedast, aged 9. By the time
> I'd managed to escape 3 years later, I suffered a nervous-breakdown
> within a few months, then went on to develop Obsessive-Compulsive-
> Disorder, which I've never fully recovered from, my education was
> ruined as a result and the condition has had a severe impact on my
> overall progress throughout life. I have always been a creative
> person, I sing and play keyboards in a band which I write and
> compose the music for. Fortunately this has been an extremely
> healing outlet for me, and has enabled me to exorcise many of my
> ghosts. I also have a part-time job restoring old fire-places.
>
> I honestly cannot see how you can speak for those who commited the
> atrocities when you say "I really want to apologise sincerely to
> anyone who was damaged by it all. It wasn't what we intended". I
> know you mean well, but you were not actually there to witness the
> sort of practices that went on. Those brutes WANTED to seriously
> hurt us, that was perfectly obvious by their whole demeanour. You
> just have to read all the testimonies of ex-pupils to realise this.
> It is my honest belief that those men concerned were definitely
> touched by some degree of evil.
>
> St James may well be a very different school now, but that is of
> little comfort or consolation to the victims of the previous order -
> still less to the perpetrators. Perhaps some are reformed, but none
> of them are absolved. That can only happen through really facing up
> to, and fully acknowledging, the destructive and utterly demonic
> nature of their conduct, and confessing as much to those who
> suffered such terrible damage at their hands. The great irony, it
> seems to me, is that it's the SES that's constantly preaching
> about "Sanskara", yet this is exactly the thing that they themselves
> have been guilty of - talk about hypocrisy! Yet here they have now
> been given this opportunity to contribute in trying to make things
> right again, and in their own lifetime too - what a blessing! (We
> all know of their beliefs in re-incarnation etc)
>
> If there is one principle in life that any school worthy of the name
> should strive to pass on to it's pupils, is that of personal
> responsibility and accountability for one's own actions. That is
> why, until those involved, including head teachers who carry final
> authority for everything done in their schools, openly acknowledge
> their personal responsibility for their actions, the scars will not
> heal. The wounds will continue to fester, for the underlying issues
> will not just go away and the ghosts of the past will never be laid
> to rest. This type of material on the Internet will continue to
> accumulate, and will spread into other forms of the media, and do
> untold damage to St James, the SES and all their branches throughout
> the world. Fortunately enough of us are now motivated and organised
> enough to make this our goal, IF we consider it necessary to do so.
>
> "All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do
> nothing". - Edmund Burke
>
> Matthew Woolf

Katherine,
I appreciate your concern that the wrongs of the past should be
acnowledged:

"I entirely agree with you, and will do what I can to see that this
happens. I think plans for something of the sort may be afoot
already."

You imply that St. James/SES are planning to do just that, though how
I am not quite sure.
But I do not believe that St. James would wish to bring up its past
for fear that it may have an adverse affect on it's present.
When the book 'The Secret Cult' was published many non-Ses parents
removed their students from the school immediately. (Ses members were
instructed not to read the book.) I think fear of a similar reaction
to revelations about the past of the day schools would prevent it
ever being adressed.
The Ses also never likes to admit if it gets something wrong.
(Actually I can't think of one occasion when it has.)I think it
survives, to a certain extent, on always being right or having an
answer to everything and for everyone. I don't think it would 'stain'
this image by choice.
Maybe blame, if it is placed, will lie solely on St. James and St.
Vedast, leaving the Ses untouched and un-blemished. After all, they
are 'separate organisations'.

To Katherine and any other SES members (past or present),

If you had been truly aware of some of the things that were ACTUALLY
going on at St James at the time, somehow I doubt that you and
everyone else would have been so "excited at the possibilities it
seemed to be opening up". I'd like to point out that in some
instances St James was equally as abusive as St Vedast. I was good
friends with one St James pupil who was beaten several times at the
the age of 5! I will not go into the details of why this happened as
this would be up to him to do so. Suffice to say it was invariably
for "misdemeanours" that were entirely not of his own making. He has
recently told me that he'll soon be publishing his testimony on the
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=7 forum.

I would also like to point out that before I was sent to St Vedast I
attended a state school called Malorees in Brondesbury, North/West
London (as mentioned at the top of my original thread). It was quite
simply an absolutely fantastic school. I was blissfully happy there,
had made many very close friends, lived nearby, was making excellent
progress academically (I was the first to read in my class). In fact
it was so popular many parents found it very difficult to get their
children into it. There was certainly NO EVIDENCE of it "getting
more and more destructured and teaching less and less". Quite the
contrary in fact. We had a wonderful head-master, a true role-model
and a real grand-father figure whom all the children loved and
really looked up to, and the same went for many of the teachers too.
Overall there was a real feeling of fun and joy about the place. You
only need to read it's message-board at the FriendsReunited site to
understand what I mean:-
http://www.friendsreunited.co.uk/friendsreunited.aspwci=forumadd&bb_key=17&bb_ty\
pe=S&school_key=146190
Of course this was just one school I hear you cry, but somehow I
find it very hard to believe that Malorees was a complete exception.
I understand your daughters had a different experience at their
first school, but that doesn't mean the majority of comprehensives
were sub-standard. And even if many of them were, this can in
ABSOLUTELY NO WAY be a any kind of excuse or justification for the
brain-washing of the parents by the SES convincing them to send
their children to these places, and then for the systematic child-
abuse of these children that followed. Reasons - yes, excuses -
definitely not. Intentions? Well, I guess "The road to Hell is paved
with good intentions".

The parents were then far too indoctrinated into the system to even
realise what was happening to their own children, let alone actually
do anything about it. It was left to many of us to run away or
refuse to return, simply for our own survival's sake. Anyway you
must be able to imagine how I felt on being plucked out of Malorees
and deposited into the living-hell of St Vedast, aged 9. By the time
I'd managed to escape 3 years later, I suffered a nervous-breakdown
within a few months, then went on to develop Obsessive-Compulsive-
Disorder, which I've never fully recovered from, my education was
ruined as a result and the condition has had a severe impact on my
overall progress throughout life. I have always been a creative
person, I sing and play keyboards in a band which I write and
compose the music for. Fortunately this has been an extremely
healing outlet for me, and has enabled me to exorcise many of my
ghosts. I also have a part-time job restoring old fire-places.

I honestly cannot see how you can speak for those who commited the
atrocities when you say "I really want to apologise sincerely to
anyone who was damaged by it all. It wasn't what we intended". I
know you mean well, but you were not actually there to witness the
sort of practices that went on. Those brutes WANTED to seriously
hurt us, that was perfectly obvious by their whole demeanour. You
just have to read all the testimonies of ex-pupils to realise this.
It is my honest belief that those men concerned were definitely
touched by some degree of evil.

St James may well be a very different school now, but that is of
little comfort or consolation to the victims of the previous order -
still less to the perpetrators. Perhaps some are reformed, but none
of them are absolved. That can only happen through really facing up
to, and fully acknowledging, the destructive and utterly demonic
nature of their conduct, and confessing as much to those who
suffered such terrible damage at their hands. The great irony, it
seems to me, is that it's the SES that's constantly preaching
about "Sanskara", yet this is exactly the thing that they themselves
have been guilty of - talk about hypocrisy! Yet here they have now
been given this opportunity to contribute in trying to make things
right again, and in their own lifetime too - what a blessing! (We
all know of their beliefs in re-incarnation etc)

If there is one principle in life that any school worthy of the name
should strive to pass on to it's pupils, is that of personal
responsibility and accountability for one's own actions. That is
why, until those involved, including head teachers who carry final
authority for everything done in their schools, openly acknowledge
their personal responsibility for their actions, the scars will not
heal. The wounds will continue to fester, for the underlying issues
will not just go away and the ghosts of the past will never be laid
to rest. This type of material on the Internet will continue to
accumulate, and will spread into other forms of the media, and do
untold damage to St James, the SES and all their branches throughout
the world. Fortunately enough of us are now motivated and organised
enough to make this our goal, IF we consider it necessary to do so.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do
nothing". - Edmund Burke

Matthew Woolf

Katherine,

With respect, I don't think it's up to you to apologise for the
damage done to anyone at St Vedast boys' school, although I
appreciate your intentions. The ones who should be apologising know
who they are, and nobody has more to apologise for than the current
headmaster of St James boys' school.

I understand the point you make about the low quality of education in
many state schools around the time St Vedast was established.
However, I think even the teachers at your daughters' state school
would have been hard pressed to provide a worse education than that
offered at St Vedast boys' school. On the whole, the teaching was
dreadful - far worse than at the state comprehensive I subsequently
attended.

But all that is beside the point. What matters is that Dan, Matthew,
myself and hundreds of other vulnerable children were systematically
abused by many of the staff at St Vedast boys' school. It was a
regime of thugs and bullies. I believe that I, and many others, have
suffered lasting psychological damage as a result. I still feel very
angry about what went on at the school. There can be no excuse for
what was done to us. Some people need to apologise for this but you
are certainly not one of them!

Best wishes,

Tom



--- In anti_ses@..., "Katharine Watson" <katharos@b...>
wrote:
> --- In anti_ses@..., "Dan Salaman" <dan_salaman@h...>
> wrote:
> > In response to Katherine Watson
>
> > Your final comment,
> >
> > >" I have taught in
> > >other schools, and I think that on balance St James nowadays
does a
> pretty
> > >good job."
> >
> > is true I am sure, however there are many of us who experienced
the 'darker
> > days' of St Vedast and St James (overuse of corporal punishment
etc). The
> > fact that St James does a 'pretty good job' nowadays is small
comfort to
> > many who passed through the schools while they still doing a
pretty awful
> > job!
> >
> > While I am happy that children are no longer being physically
abused at St
> > James, I think that the SES as an organisation, Mr Debenham and
others
> > should perhaps acknowledge some of the terrible, character
destroying,
> > teacher behaviour of the recent past? This would help everyone
who has
> been
> > involved in the schools and allow St James to distance itself
from its awful
> > beginnings.
> >
> > Dan Salaman
> >
> >
> Hello Dan - (I remember you well from those after-school 'homework'
sessions
> I used to be asked to supervise.  I hope you're as inventive as
ever.)
>
> I entirely agree with you, and will do what I can to see that this
happens.  I
> think plans for something of the sort may be afoot already.
>
> I think St Vedast girls' school probably wasn't nearly as bad as
the boys'.
> There were some distinctly odd features, but when my daughter
Harriet came
> home at the end of each day we used to laugh together about them.
There
> wasn't, at least as far as I know, any real mistreatment - nothing
like the
> horrifying account given on this website by Matthew Woolf.  I was
talking to
> Harriet on the phone yesterday (she lives in Up State New York)
about it, and
> she said she wasn't aware of anything really serious while she was
there.  In
> fact I would say that both my daughers, who were in at the start of
St James
> and St Vedast respectively, got a somewhat eccentric but ultimately
rather
> brilliant education.  (I know Clara got a rotten deal, but that's
another story.  In
> fact I stuck up for her at the time - without success.  But she's a
fantastically
> brilliant human being now.)
>
> I feel very sad about all the hurt and pain that seems to have been
caused by
> what started out as such a hopeful, exciting and potentially humane
and life-
> enhancing venture.  I was one of the parents who worked to get St
Vedast on
> the road.  St James had already started and everyone was very
excited at the
> possibilities it seemed to be opening up, but it was only open to
childlren of
> five and six years old.  So then the older brothers and sisters of
those original
> pupils (and their parents) began saying - what about us?  A group
of us got
> together and decided to try and start a school for them.
>
> It might help to understand how very difficult things were then,
especially in
> London,  if you wanted to find a decent school for your kids, and
many parents
> were very worrried.  State schools were getting more and more
destructured
> and teaching less and less.  (E.g. one teacher at my daughters'
school would
> tell anyone who happened to pass by, "I'm not the teacher - I'm
just the
> provider of experiences."  Nobody taught maths - children were
expected to
> 'discover' it for themselves by playing with special bricks.  There
were no
> lessons as such; you just wandered into the 'maths area', or
the 'books area'
> and started to play with the equipment .  If you were lucky a
teacher might
> wander in and say, "Hello, what are you doing?"  There was no
curriculum;
> one of my daughters 'did the Tudors' three times in different years
with
> different teachers.  There was no starting time; you just turned up
when you
> felt like it.  I remember my kids being totally puzzled and
frustrated by it all,
> because essentially they really wanted to learn.
>
> It's odd to think that the original idea was that I would be
headmistress of the
> girls' school (it didn't have a name then) and Mike Gavin, father
of Ruth and
> Michael, was to be head of the boys'.  But then it got sort of
hijacked - and the
> rest is history.  I went off and did a PhD instead, and Mike ran a
shop selling
> vintage jazz records.   I often wonder how things might have been
if...   But
> would we have done any better?  I don't know.  I think being
earnest and
> trying to do good is probably a dangerous condition.
>
> But I really want to apologise sincerely to anyone who was damaged
by it all.
> It wasn't what we intended.  In fact nothing could be further from
what we
> intended.  I can't speak 'officially' for St James, because I
wasn't part of it then,
> except as a parent.  But I hope that soon some healing moves may
become
> possible.
>
> With love,
>
> Katharine
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ____________________________________________________________
> ____________
> > >
> ____________________________________________________________
> ____________
> > >
> > >Message: 1
> > >    Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:55:33 -0000
> > >    From: "Katharine Watson" <katharos@b...>
> > >Subject: Education, meditation, and other sinister matters
> > >
> > >Hello, anonymous adrasteia (nice name)
> > >
> > >I am the teacher at St James boys' school who separated the boys
who
> > >genuinely meditated from those who didn't want to.  (Jack -
nobody said 'at
> > >home' - that was never the point, but never mind.)  It happened
like this.
> > >Since
> > >being asked to be a form teacher for the sixth form, I've become
acutely
> > >aware
> > >that most people don't actually meditate.  I thought - this is
daft and
> > >hypocritical.  So I asked how many people really did meditate
during our
> > >morning 10 minute 'meditation' session.  Four or five people put
their
> > >hands
> > >up.  So then I thought, this is REALLY daft.  So I invited the
ones who
> > >wanted
> > >to meditate to take themselves off to a different room where
they could
> > >meditate in peace without the constant distraction of the people
who didn't
> > >value it.  (Jack will back me up in saying it really is
constant...)  I
> > >decided to
> > >invite - and I stressed the word invite, since I think it is
entirely an
> > >individual's
> > >business whether he or she meditates, prays, howls to the moon
or
> whatever
> > >provided it doesn't interfere with anyone else's peace of mind -
the others
> > >to
> > >try a range of alternative mind-calming, meditative-style
exercises.  Some
> > >of
> > >them seem to like it.  Some don't see any point in it.  That's
up to them.
> > >So
> > >now all I ask is that people just sit quietly for that 10 minute
period, so
> > >that
> > >there can be just a little space and peace in what is normally a
> > >frantically
> > >busy, noisy and exhausting day.
> > >
> > >Incidentally, I don't know who made the remark about
being 'disappointed'
> > >to
> > >Jack.  Personally I make a point of not wanting to know who has
or has not
> > >'joined'.  I love 'em all and respect them as people - even
though they
> > >drive
> > >me crazy every day - regardless.
> > >
> > >For the record:  I have been a member of the SES for more than
40 years.
> > >During that time I have questioned absolutely everything -
sometimes
> > >directly
> > >and openly, sometimes privately within myself.  Many times I
have come
> very
> > >close to leaving, but so far I have always, after much soul-
searching (OK,
> > >OK,
> > >maybe there is no such thing as a soul, but you know what I mean
for
> > >heaven's sake) come to the conclusion that at the core of it is
something
> > >that
> > >to me is infinitely valuable.  I don't think I need feel
apologetic about
> > >that.
> > >(And I'm happy to try to explain it if anyone asks.)  I am an
enthusiastic
> > >labour
> > >voter.  I love jazz.  I don't wear long skirts.  Neither I nor
my husband
> > >have
> > >ever subscribed to all that 'subservient woman' stuff  (which
incidentally
> > >seems quietly to have more or less died of its own accord).  I
teach
> > >academic
> > >philosophy, which encourages me to think scepticism healthy.   I
do,
> > >however,
> > >believe passionately in the basic freedom and integrity of every
human
> > >being,
> > >and his or her right to respect.  I do my damndest - though it
might not
> > >always
> > >appear like that - to put that belief into practice in my work.
I have
> > >taught in
> > >other schools, and I think that on balance St James nowadays
does a
> pretty
> > >good job.
> > >
> > >Greetings to all,
> > >
> > >Katharine Watson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ____________________________________________________________
> ____________
> > >
> ____________________________________________________________
> ____________
> > >
> > >
> > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > >anti_ses-unsubscribe@...
> > >
> > >
> > >-----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > >  http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/anti_ses/
> > >
> > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > >  anti_ses-unsubscribe@...
> > >
> > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > >  http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
> > >-----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
> _____
> > Express yourself with cool new emoticons
http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/
> myemo

--- In anti_ses@..., "Dan Salaman" <dan_salaman@h...>
wrote:
> In response to Katherine Watson

> Your final comment,
>
> >" I have taught in
> >other schools, and I think that on balance St James nowadays does a
pretty
> >good job."
>
> is true I am sure, however there are many of us who experienced the 'darker
> days' of St Vedast and St James (overuse of corporal punishment etc). The
> fact that St James does a 'pretty good job' nowadays is small comfort to
> many who passed through the schools while they still doing a pretty awful
> job!
>
> While I am happy that children are no longer being physically abused at St
> James, I think that the SES as an organisation, Mr Debenham and others
> should perhaps acknowledge some of the terrible, character destroying,
> teacher behaviour of the recent past? This would help everyone who has
been
> involved in the schools and allow St James to distance itself from its awful
> beginnings.
>
> Dan Salaman
>
>
Hello Dan - (I remember you well from those after-school 'homework' sessions
I used to be asked to supervise.  I hope you're as inventive as ever.)

I entirely agree with you, and will do what I can to see that this happens.  I
think plans for something of the sort may be afoot already.

I think St Vedast girls' school probably wasn't nearly as bad as the boys'.
There were some distinctly odd features, but when my daughter Harriet came
home at the end of each day we used to laugh together about them.  There
wasn't, at least as far as I know, any real mistreatment - nothing like the
horrifying account given on this website by Matthew Woolf.  I was talking to
Harriet on the phone yesterday (she lives in Up State New York) about it, and
she said she wasn't aware of anything really serious while she was there.  In
fact I would say that both my daughers, who were in at the start of St James
and St Vedast respectively, got a somewhat eccentric but ultimately rather
brilliant education.  (I know Clara got a rotten deal, but that's another story.
In
fact I stuck up for her at the time - without success.  But she's a
fantastically
brilliant human being now.)

I feel very sad about all the hurt and pain that seems to have been caused by
what started out as such a hopeful, exciting and potentially humane and life-
enhancing venture.  I was one of the parents who worked to get St Vedast on
the road.  St James had already started and everyone was very excited at the
possibilities it seemed to be opening up, but it was only open to childlren of
five and six years old.  So then the older brothers and sisters of those
original
pupils (and their parents) began saying - what about us?  A group of us got
together and decided to try and start a school for them.

It might help to understand how very difficult things were then, especially in
London,  if you wanted to find a decent school for your kids, and many parents
were very worrried.  State schools were getting more and more destructured
and teaching less and less.  (E.g. one teacher at my daughters' school would
tell anyone who happened to pass by, "I'm not the teacher - I'm just the
provider of experiences."  Nobody taught maths - children were expected to
'discover' it for themselves by playing with special bricks.  There were no
lessons as such; you just wandered into the 'maths area', or the 'books area'
and started to play with the equipment .  If you were lucky a teacher might
wander in and say, "Hello, what are you doing?"  There was no curriculum;
one of my daughters 'did the Tudors' three times in different years with
different teachers.  There was no starting time; you just turned up when you
felt like it.  I remember my kids being totally puzzled and frustrated by it
all,
because essentially they really wanted to learn.

It's odd to think that the original idea was that I would be headmistress of the
girls' school (it didn't have a name then) and Mike Gavin, father of Ruth and
Michael, was to be head of the boys'.  But then it got sort of hijacked - and
the
rest is history.  I went off and did a PhD instead, and Mike ran a shop selling
vintage jazz records.   I often wonder how things might have been if...   But
would we have done any better?  I don't know.  I think being earnest and
trying to do good is probably a dangerous condition.

But I really want to apologise sincerely to anyone who was damaged by it all.
It wasn't what we intended.  In fact nothing could be further from what we
intended.  I can't speak 'officially' for St James, because I wasn't part of it
then,
except as a parent.  But I hope that soon some healing moves may become
possible.

With love,

Katharine
> >
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________
____________
> >
____________________________________________________________
____________
> >
> >Message: 1
> >    Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:55:33 -0000
> >    From: "Katharine Watson" <katharos@b...>
> >Subject: Education, meditation, and other sinister matters
> >
> >Hello, anonymous adrasteia (nice name)
> >
> >I am the teacher at St James boys' school who separated the boys who
> >genuinely meditated from those who didn't want to.  (Jack - nobody said 'at
> >home' - that was never the point, but never mind.)  It happened like this.
> >Since
> >being asked to be a form teacher for the sixth form, I've become acutely
> >aware
> >that most people don't actually meditate.  I thought - this is daft and
> >hypocritical.  So I asked how many people really did meditate during our
> >morning 10 minute 'meditation' session.  Four or five people put their
> >hands
> >up.  So then I thought, this is REALLY daft.  So I invited the ones who
> >wanted
> >to meditate to take themselves off to a different room where they could
> >meditate in peace without the constant distraction of the people who didn't
> >value it.  (Jack will back me up in saying it really is constant...)  I
> >decided to
> >invite - and I stressed the word invite, since I think it is entirely an
> >individual's
> >business whether he or she meditates, prays, howls to the moon or
whatever
> >provided it doesn't interfere with anyone else's peace of mind - the others
> >to
> >try a range of alternative mind-calming, meditative-style exercises.  Some
> >of
> >them seem to like it.  Some don't see any point in it.  That's up to them.
> >So
> >now all I ask is that people just sit quietly for that 10 minute period, so
> >that
> >there can be just a little space and peace in what is normally a
> >frantically
> >busy, noisy and exhausting day.
> >
> >Incidentally, I don't know who made the remark about being 'disappointed'
> >to
> >Jack.  Personally I make a point of not wanting to know who has or has not
> >'joined'.  I love 'em all and respect them as people - even though they
> >drive
> >me crazy every day - regardless.
> >
> >For the record:  I have been a member of the SES for more than 40 years.
> >During that time I have questioned absolutely everything - sometimes
> >directly
> >and openly, sometimes privately within myself.  Many times I have come
very
> >close to leaving, but so far I have always, after much soul-searching (OK,
> >OK,
> >maybe there is no such thing as a soul, but you know what I mean for
> >heaven's sake) come to the conclusion that at the core of it is something
> >that
> >to me is infinitely valuable.  I don't think I need feel apologetic about
> >that.
> >(And I'm happy to try to explain it if anyone asks.)  I am an enthusiastic
> >labour
> >voter.  I love jazz.  I don't wear long skirts.  Neither I nor my husband
> >have
> >ever subscribed to all that 'subservient woman' stuff  (which incidentally
> >seems quietly to have more or less died of its own accord).  I teach
> >academic
> >philosophy, which encourages me to think scepticism healthy.   I do,
> >however,
> >believe passionately in the basic freedom and integrity of every human
> >being,
> >and his or her right to respect.  I do my damndest - though it might not
> >always
> >appear like that - to put that belief into practice in my work.  I have
> >taught in
> >other schools, and I think that on balance St James nowadays does a
pretty
> >good job.
> >
> >Greetings to all,
> >
> >Katharine Watson
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________
____________
> >
____________________________________________________________
____________
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >anti_ses-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >  http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/anti_ses/
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >  anti_ses-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> >  http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________
_____
> Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/
myemo

In response to Katherine Watson

Mrs Watson, you sound like a very reasonable and strong person. You have
obviously stood up against some of the extreme prejudice (towards women)
which was promoted by the SES in previous years. Also you appear to care
about young people in your charge.

Your final comment,

>" I have taught in
>other schools, and I think that on balance St James nowadays does a pretty
>good job."

is true I am sure, however there are many of us who experienced the 'darker
days' of St Vedast and St James (overuse of corporal punishment etc). The
fact that St James does a 'pretty good job' nowadays is small comfort to
many who passed through the schools while they still doing a pretty awful
job!

While I am happy that children are no longer being physically abused at St
James, I think that the SES as an organisation, Mr Debenham and others
should perhaps acknowledge some of the terrible, character destroying,
teacher behaviour of the recent past? This would help everyone who has been
involved in the schools and allow St James to distance itself from its awful
beginnings.

Dan Salaman


>From: anti_ses@...
>Reply-To: anti_ses@...
>To: anti_ses@...
>Subject: [anti_ses] Digest Number 21
>Date: 28 Mar 2004 11:33:09 -0000
>
>There is 1 message in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Education, meditation, and other sinister matters
>            From: "Katharine Watson" <katharos@...>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
>    Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:55:33 -0000
>    From: "Katharine Watson" <katharos@...>
>Subject: Education, meditation, and other sinister matters
>
>Hello, anonymous adrasteia (nice name)
>
>I am the teacher at St James boys' school who separated the boys who
>genuinely meditated from those who didn't want to.  (Jack - nobody said 'at
>home' - that was never the point, but never mind.)  It happened like this.
>Since
>being asked to be a form teacher for the sixth form, I've become acutely
>aware
>that most people don't actually meditate.  I thought - this is daft and
>hypocritical.  So I asked how many people really did meditate during our
>morning 10 minute 'meditation' session.  Four or five people put their
>hands
>up.  So then I thought, this is REALLY daft.  So I invited the ones who
>wanted
>to meditate to take themselves off to a different room where they could
>meditate in peace without the constant distraction of the people who didn't
>value it.  (Jack will back me up in saying it really is constant...)  I
>decided to
>invite - and I stressed the word invite, since I think it is entirely an
>individual's
>business whether he or she meditates, prays, howls to the moon or whatever
>provided it doesn't interfere with anyone else's peace of mind - the others
>to
>try a range of alternative mind-calming, meditative-style exercises.  Some
>of
>them seem to like it.  Some don't see any point in it.  That's up to them.
>So
>now all I ask is that people just sit quietly for that 10 minute period, so
>that
>there can be just a little space and peace in what is normally a
>frantically
>busy, noisy and exhausting day.
>
>Incidentally, I don't know who made the remark about being 'disappointed'
>to
>Jack.  Personally I make a point of not wanting to know who has or has not
>'joined'.  I love 'em all and respect them as people - even though they
>drive
>me crazy every day - regardless.
>
>For the record:  I have been a member of the SES for more than 40 years.
>During that time I have questioned absolutely everything - sometimes
>directly
>and openly, sometimes privately within myself.  Many times I have come very
>close to leaving, but so far I have always, after much soul-searching (OK,
>OK,
>maybe there is no such thing as a soul, but you know what I mean for
>heaven's sake) come to the conclusion that at the core of it is something
>that
>to me is infinitely valuable.  I don't think I need feel apologetic about
>that.
>(And I'm happy to try to explain it if anyone asks.)  I am an enthusiastic
>labour
>voter.  I love jazz.  I don't wear long skirts.  Neither I nor my husband
>have
>ever subscribed to all that 'subservient woman' stuff  (which incidentally
>seems quietly to have more or less died of its own accord).  I teach
>academic
>philosophy, which encourages me to think scepticism healthy.   I do,
>however,
>believe passionately in the basic freedom and integrity of every human
>being,
>and his or her right to respect.  I do my damndest - though it might not
>always
>appear like that - to put that belief into practice in my work.  I have
>taught in
>other schools, and I think that on balance St James nowadays does a pretty
>good job.
>
>Greetings to all,
>
>Katharine Watson
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>anti_ses-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/anti_ses/
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  anti_ses-unsubscribe@...
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

Hello, anonymous adrasteia (nice name)

I am the teacher at St James boys' school who separated the boys who
genuinely meditated from those who didn't want to.  (Jack - nobody said 'at
home' - that was never the point, but never mind.)  It happened like this. 
Since
being asked to be a form teacher for the sixth form, I've become acutely aware
that most people don't actually meditate.  I thought - this is daft and
hypocritical.  So I asked how many people really did meditate during our
morning 10 minute 'meditation' session.  Four or five people put their hands
up.  So then I thought, this is REALLY daft.  So I invited the ones who wanted
to meditate to take themselves off to a different room where they could
meditate in peace without the constant distraction of the people who didn't
value it.  (Jack will back me up in saying it really is constant...)  I decided
to
invite - and I stressed the word invite, since I think it is entirely an
individual's
business whether he or she meditates, prays, howls to the moon or whatever
provided it doesn't interfere with anyone else's peace of mind - the others to
try a range of alternative mind-calming, meditative-style exercises.  Some of
them seem to like it.  Some don't see any point in it.  That's up to them.  So
now all I ask is that people just sit quietly for that 10 minute period, so that
there can be just a little space and peace in what is normally a frantically
busy, noisy and exhausting day.

Incidentally, I don't know who made the remark about being 'disappointed' to
Jack.  Personally I make a point of not wanting to know who has or has not
'joined'.  I love 'em all and respect them as people - even though they drive
me crazy every day - regardless.

For the record:  I have been a member of the SES for more than 40 years.
During that time I have questioned absolutely everything - sometimes directly
and openly, sometimes privately within myself.  Many times I have come very
close to leaving, but so far I have always, after much soul-searching (OK, OK,
maybe there is no such thing as a soul, but you know what I mean for
heaven's sake) come to the conclusion that at the core of it is something that
to me is infinitely valuable.  I don't think I need feel apologetic about that.
(And I'm happy to try to explain it if anyone asks.)  I am an enthusiastic
labour
voter.  I love jazz.  I don't wear long skirts.  Neither I nor my husband have
ever subscribed to all that 'subservient woman' stuff  (which incidentally
seems quietly to have more or less died of its own accord).  I teach academic
philosophy, which encourages me to think scepticism healthy.   I do, however,
believe passionately in the basic freedom and integrity of every human being,
and his or her right to respect.  I do my damndest - though it might not always
appear like that - to put that belief into practice in my work.  I have taught
in
other schools, and I think that on balance St James nowadays does a pretty
good job.

Greetings to all,

Katharine Watson