Dear All,

I am a student in Leeds looking for interpretations of various aspects
of language for an art project. The project is to be exhibited to the
public in May, and you are welcome to pay a visit.

I am posting this invitation in several groups, in the hope of getting
as wide a variety of responses as possible. I hope that you do not
feel that this posting is inappropriate for this group. If so, please
accept my apologies, and ignore this message. I will only post this
message once, and at the end of the project I will post another
thanking everyone who took the trouble to send a message.

If you would like to participate, please respond to this message with
an e-mail giving a description of your personal views and/or opinions
of the word "love", in your own words. What do you think it means? How
would you describe it? Could you describe it another way? There are no
right or wrong answers; all opinions are valid. I just want to know
what *you* think the word means.

I look forward to receiving your response.

Thank you

Michael Adamson

Notes:
1. Please send your response direct to me at
love_in_your_own_words@..., NOT to the group.
2. Please send your e-mail as plain text (no HTML and no attachments).
Use the subject line "Love is...".
3. Your message can be as short or as long as you like, but if you go
over about 100 words it will probably have to be shortened - which I
don't want to do, because that defeats the principle of "your own words".
4. I cannot guarantee to include every entry; I don't know how many I
will receive, and I am working within fairly strict limits of time and
space. I will include as many as possible. I also cannot guarantee to
include messages received after 1st May 2004.
5. Your anonymity is guaranteed. I am only interested in your views on
the word "love", so I will be deleting all e-mails after I have
collected your comments. No names or e-mail addresses will be saved or
published.
6. I hope you will understand that I cannot promise to respond to
individual messages, but I will post a general "thank you" here and
acknowledge all contributions in the exhibition.
7. The project is to be exhibited at Leeds College of Art and Design,
Vernon Street, Leeds, 27th May - 3rd June 2004.
8. Finally, please try to be honest but above all enjoy taking part.
Thanks again.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I recently came across one called www.the-brights.net and I can
recommend it for all atheists, agnostics, humanists and everyone else
who is supernatural-unfriendly.

Martin


--- In atheismuk2@..., Tim Sellers <tsrsellers@y...>
wrote:
> There are quite a lot, though most are from the US where the
problem of fundamentalism is greater (atheists in the US probably
have more of a hard time than we do).  A lot of them are
the "previously religious but discovered the light of reason" type,
such as http://exchristian.net.
> Others: www.infidels.org  (has a good library), and if you're
looking to educate any religious friends point them in the direction
of www.geocities.com/paulntobin or, for an honest study of the bible,
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
>
> www.religionisbullshit.com was a well written and funny site until
the owner "reconverted" to christianity, but I've just purchased
www.religionisbullshit.net which should be up and running soon (in
the meantime check out www.geocities.com/religioniscrap)
>
> There are loads more but they are probably well known anyway.
>
>
>
> larryinlurex <no_reply@...> wrote:
> Any good atheist websites?
>
> Martin
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are quite a lot, though most are from the US where the problem of
fundamentalism is greater (atheists in the US probably have more of a hard time
than we do).  A lot of them are the "previously religious but discovered the
light of reason" type, such as http://exchristian.net.
Others: www.infidels.org  (has a good library), and if you're looking to educate
any religious friends point them in the direction of
www.geocities.com/paulntobin or, for an honest study of the bible,
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

www.religionisbullshit.com was a well written and funny site until the owner
"reconverted" to christianity, but I've just purchased
www.religionisbullshit.net which should be up and running soon (in the meantime
check out www.geocities.com/religioniscrap)

There are loads more but they are probably well known anyway.



larryinlurex <no_reply@...> wrote:
Any good atheist websites?

Martin


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Any good atheist websites?

Martin

http://godisbad4yourhealth@yahoogroups.co.uk

--- In atheismuk2@..., larryinlurex <no_reply@y...>
wrote:
> I couldn't make it, does anyone have a report?
>
> Martin

A good time was had by all! I even had an argument in the street
(before things got started) with a mormon who was trying to peddle
his religion.

Enormous amounts were imbibed, and several truck loads of food were
eaten. It was a very pleasurable experience to meet up with some of
the other UK Internet Infidel folks. Here is the link that shows a
few pictures of the event.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54646

Martin

I couldn't make it, does anyone have a report?

Martin

The author and content of the offending message have been removed,
apologies for any delay.

In future, please email any of the managers and we will be only too
happy to remove offending material.

Larry

--- In atheismuk2@..., "Tim Sellers" <tim@t...> wrote:
> piss off you sad cow, I'm a happily married man - go play your
pathetic games somewhere else.
>

piss off you sad cow, I'm a happily married man - go play your pathetic games
somewhere else.

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: mythongonyourfloor11 <mythongonyourfloor11@...>
   To: atheismuk2@...
   Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 8:27 AM
   Subject: [Atheism UK] hey


   i saw your profile. would you like an hot sexy american women
   well baby if you want to meet come to this dating site im on. its works really
good.

   http://www.nakedfriendfinder.com/landing.asp?afl=MYHO


         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I know, I saw this and think it is an absolute disgrace.  It is quite
simply genital mutilation and nothing else.  There is the perceived
wisdom that when this is performed on females in Africa it is morally
abhorrant but in this context it is perfectly acceptable.  How on
Earth can this have a logical justification?

The reasons given by some of the people on the programme were bizarre
as well, such as,

"We are setting the groundwork so that he has a right to choose when
he gets older".

Of course, should he want to join another religion he will have to
start at the beginning, so what is the problem in letting him truly
decide for himself rather than prejudicing the decision?

Someone also said,

"We are not regular worshippers, we only attend about three times a
year, but it's the 'right thing to do'".

Honestly, this sort of position is hypocritical in the extreme.

I also notice that some women were allowed to attend the ceremony,
albeit at the back of the room.  What is the world coming to?!

--- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
wrote:
> Tim, and All,
>
> It's always good to bash the bible bashers, but it's strange you
should say
> ...
>
> >>anyone come across any religious extremists over here?<<
>
> right at this particular moment.  Although not christian, I'm
sickened by
> what's on BBC 1 at the moment.
>
> I dunno if Jews are exempt, but the mutilation of babies for
religious
> reasons by a doctor who works as an employee of the NHS is starting
to be
> simply too much for me.
>
> I am SO sick of people like that.
>
>
> Phil.
> ----------
> >From: "Tim Sellers" <tim@t...>
> >Sent: Tue 15/04/2003 23:25
> >To: <atheismuk2@...>
> >Subject: Re: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights
Act
> >
> >The first bit came out wrong - I just mean that it's amusing that
being
> >likened to a christian is a big insult.
> >
> >Right, fundy bashing anyone .....?
> >
> >
> >Actually, I've only really come across christian fundamentalists
in the
> >states (via the net) - anyone come across any religious extremists
over
> >here?
> >
> >Tim
> >
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: Tim Sellers
> >  To: atheismuk2@...
> >  Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 6:53 PM
> >  Subject: Re: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights
Act
> >
> >
> >  I'm glad you found being likened to a christian insulting!  I
put that
> >because your previous comments made you sound like a bigot and I
find
> >religious people the most bigoted group of people around.  The
reason I
> >don't like religion - apart from the obvious reason that such
people
> >believe in things that very probably aren't true - is that they
want to
> >assimilate people into their faith. Religion is about control. I am
> >passionately against religion because I believe people should have
as much
> >freedom as possible.  All kids rebel - it's part of growing up -
but things
> >are going to be much worse if you actually give them something to
rebel
> >against (i.e. strict discipline).
> >
> >  Feel free to go back to fundy bashing now ....
> >
> >  Tim
> >
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> >    From: Anti Christ
> >    To: atheismuk2@...
> >    Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 5:19 PM
> >    Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights
Act
> >
> >
> >    I appreciate that this thread has "gone of track", but here's
my last
> >(hopefully!!).
> >
> >    >>it was the guy going on about strict discipline being a good
thing I
> >was disagreeing with
> >
> >    You're perfectly right to disagree if you feel otherwise. As it
> >happens, I think that discipline in schools IS a good thing. I
should
> >imagine that most of the teachers who have been assaulted and
abused, not
> >just by pupils but their parents, would come down on this side of
of the
> >fence.
> >
> >    Don't get the idea that I want to bring back the birch or
whatever.
> >Children should be taught to respect others by first of all
respecting
> >themselves, and that mostly comes through teaching self control.
> >
> >    And as for "hell, he almost sounds like a christian!!!"....
Well, what
> >bigger insult can you hit someone with?? I'm mortally wounded!!
> >
> >    By of explanation about why I don't move from Reading, I live
in a
> >housing association house, and can't just put the house on the
market and
> >go elsewhere.
> >
> >    Now, can we all get back to fundy bashing??
> >
> >    Kind regards,
> >
> >    Phil.
> >    ----------
> >
> >    You missed the point - I agree with you about the "terrible
conforming
> >pressures on our children" - it was the guy going on about strict
> >discipline being a good thing I was disagreeing with (hell, he
almost
> >sounds like a christian!!!)
> >    larryinlurex <no_reply@...> wrote:Well, no-one
was
> >writing about anything and there's nothing I can't
> >    stand more than a bunch of atheists who think all is well with
the
> >    world.
> >
> >    Furthermore, I used the example of school uniform as an
example of
> >    the terrible conforming pressures on our children.
> >
> >    Martin
> >
> >    --- In atheismuk2@..., "Tim Sellers" <tim@t...>
wrote:
> >    > That's right, and why has the Atheism UK group turned into a
> >    discussion about schools and discipline?  I don't send my
daughter to
> >    school (for various reasons including the avoidance of
religious
> >    bigots) and I want her to be FREE so she can think for herself
(hence
> >    the avoidance of the said religious bigots).  Discussions on
school
> >    uniforms are not relevant to religion! (although I don't see
how
> >    forcing kids to comply to set standards can be a GOOD thing).
> >    >   ----- Original Message -----
> >    >   From: larryinlurex
> >    >   To: atheismuk2@...
> >    >   Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 11:43 AM
> >    >   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human
Rights Act
> >    >
> >    >
> >    >   <climbs onto moral high horse>
> >    >
> >    >   I find it is generally a mistake to label entire groups of
> >    people,
> >    >   especially something like "cesspit brats".  Evil begins
when you
> >    >   treat people as things...
> >    >
> >    >   <dismounts>
> >    >
> >    >   M.
> >    >
> >    >   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
> >    <anti.christ@n...>
> >    >   wrote:
> >    >   > Tis definitely a good school, and it tends to be parents
who
> >    really
> >    >   WANT the kids to do well who send them there. So I think
that
> >    maybe
> >    >   the kids do come from *better* homes where they are taught
> >    >   discipline.
> >    >   >
> >    >   > There are several schools within the catchment area, and
those
> >    are
> >    >   where the cesspit brats are sent.
> >    >   >
> >    >   > Phil H.
> >    >
> >    >
> >    >
> >    >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >    >
> >    >
> >    >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >    >   atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
> >    >
> >    >
> >    >
> >    >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> >    Service.
> >    >
> >    >
> >    >
> >    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> >
> >
> >
> >    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
> >
> >
> >    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
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Service.
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> >
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Service.
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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Tim, and All,

It's always good to bash the bible bashers, but it's strange you should say
...

>>anyone come across any religious extremists over here?<<

right at this particular moment.  Although not christian, I'm sickened by
what's on BBC 1 at the moment.

I dunno if Jews are exempt, but the mutilation of babies for religious
reasons by a doctor who works as an employee of the NHS is starting to be
simply too much for me.

I am SO sick of people like that.


Phil.
----------
>From: "Tim Sellers" <tim@...>
>Sent: Tue 15/04/2003 23:25
>To: <atheismuk2@...>
>Subject: Re: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
>
>The first bit came out wrong - I just mean that it's amusing that being
>likened to a christian is a big insult.
>
>Right, fundy bashing anyone .....?
>
>
>Actually, I've only really come across christian fundamentalists in the
>states (via the net) - anyone come across any religious extremists over
>here?
>
>Tim
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Tim Sellers
>  To: atheismuk2@...
>  Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 6:53 PM
>  Subject: Re: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
>
>
>  I'm glad you found being likened to a christian insulting!  I put that
>because your previous comments made you sound like a bigot and I find
>religious people the most bigoted group of people around.  The reason I
>don't like religion - apart from the obvious reason that such people
>believe in things that very probably aren't true - is that they want to
>assimilate people into their faith. Religion is about control. I am
>passionately against religion because I believe people should have as much
>freedom as possible.  All kids rebel - it's part of growing up - but things
>are going to be much worse if you actually give them something to rebel
>against (i.e. strict discipline).
>
>  Feel free to go back to fundy bashing now ....
>
>  Tim
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>    From: Anti Christ
>    To: atheismuk2@...
>    Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 5:19 PM
>    Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
>
>
>    I appreciate that this thread has "gone of track", but here's my last
>(hopefully!!).
>
>    >>it was the guy going on about strict discipline being a good thing I
>was disagreeing with
>
>    You're perfectly right to disagree if you feel otherwise. As it
>happens, I think that discipline in schools IS a good thing. I should
>imagine that most of the teachers who have been assaulted and  abused, not
>just by pupils but their parents, would come down on this side of of the
>fence.
>
>    Don't get the idea that I want to bring back the birch or whatever.
>Children should be taught to respect others by first of all respecting
>themselves, and that mostly comes through teaching self control.
>
>    And as for "hell, he almost sounds like a christian!!!".... Well, what
>bigger insult can you hit someone with?? I'm mortally wounded!!
>
>    By of explanation about why I don't move from Reading, I live in a
>housing association house, and can't just put the house on the market and
>go elsewhere.
>
>    Now, can we all get back to fundy bashing??
>
>    Kind regards,
>
>    Phil.
>    ----------
>
>    You missed the point - I agree with you about the "terrible conforming
>pressures on our children" - it was the guy going on about strict
>discipline being a good thing I was disagreeing with (hell, he almost
>sounds like a christian!!!)
>    larryinlurex <no_reply@...> wrote:Well, no-one was
>writing about anything and there's nothing I can't
>    stand more than a bunch of atheists who think all is well with the
>    world.
>
>    Furthermore, I used the example of school uniform as an example of
>    the terrible conforming pressures on our children.
>
>    Martin
>
>    --- In atheismuk2@..., "Tim Sellers" <tim@t...> wrote:
>    > That's right, and why has the Atheism UK group turned into a
>    discussion about schools and discipline?  I don't send my daughter to
>    school (for various reasons including the avoidance of religious
>    bigots) and I want her to be FREE so she can think for herself (hence
>    the avoidance of the said religious bigots).  Discussions on school
>    uniforms are not relevant to religion! (although I don't see how
>    forcing kids to comply to set standards can be a GOOD thing).
>    >   ----- Original Message -----
>    >   From: larryinlurex
>    >   To: atheismuk2@...
>    >   Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 11:43 AM
>    >   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
>    >
>    >
>    >   <climbs onto moral high horse>
>    >
>    >   I find it is generally a mistake to label entire groups of
>    people,
>    >   especially something like "cesspit brats".  Evil begins when you
>    >   treat people as things...
>    >
>    >   <dismounts>
>    >
>    >   M.
>    >
>    >   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
>    <anti.christ@n...>
>    >   wrote:
>    >   > Tis definitely a good school, and it tends to be parents who
>    really
>    >   WANT the kids to do well who send them there. So I think that
>    maybe
>    >   the kids do come from *better* homes where they are taught
>    >   discipline.
>    >   >
>    >   > There are several schools within the catchment area, and those
>    are
>    >   where the cesspit brats are sent.
>    >   >
>    >   > Phil H.
>    >
>    >
>    >
>    >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>    >
>    >
>    >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    >   atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
>    >
>    >
>    >
>    >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>    Service.
>    >
>    >
>    >
>    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>    atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
>    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>
>
>
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>
>
>
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>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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The first bit came out wrong - I just mean that it's amusing that being likened
to a christian is a big insult.

Right, fundy bashing anyone .....?


Actually, I've only really come across christian fundamentalists in the states
(via the net) - anyone come across any religious extremists over here?

Tim

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Tim Sellers
   To: atheismuk2@...
   Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 6:53 PM
   Subject: Re: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act


   I'm glad you found being likened to a christian insulting!  I put that because
your previous comments made you sound like a bigot and I find religious people
the most bigoted group of people around.  The reason I don't like religion -
apart from the obvious reason that such people believe in things that very
probably aren't true - is that they want to assimilate people into their faith.
Religion is about control. I am passionately against religion because I believe
people should have as much freedom as possible.  All kids rebel - it's part of
growing up - but things are going to be much worse if you actually give them
something to rebel against (i.e. strict discipline).

   Feel free to go back to fundy bashing now ....

   Tim

   ----- Original Message -----
     From: Anti Christ
     To: atheismuk2@...
     Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 5:19 PM
     Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act


     I appreciate that this thread has "gone of track", but here's my last
(hopefully!!).

     >>it was the guy going on about strict discipline being a good thing I was
disagreeing with

     You're perfectly right to disagree if you feel otherwise. As it happens, I
think that discipline in schools IS a good thing. I should imagine that most of
the teachers who have been assaulted and  abused, not just by pupils but their
parents, would come down on this side of of the fence.

     Don't get the idea that I want to bring back the birch or whatever. Children
should be taught to respect others by first of all respecting themselves, and
that mostly comes through teaching self control.

     And as for "hell, he almost sounds like a christian!!!".... Well, what
bigger insult can you hit someone with?? I'm mortally wounded!!

     By of explanation about why I don't move from Reading, I live in a housing
association house, and can't just put the house on the market and go elsewhere.

     Now, can we all get back to fundy bashing??

     Kind regards,

     Phil.
     ----------

     You missed the point - I agree with you about the "terrible conforming
pressures on our children" - it was the guy going on about strict discipline
being a good thing I was disagreeing with (hell, he almost sounds like a
christian!!!)
     larryinlurex <no_reply@...> wrote:Well, no-one was writing
about anything and there's nothing I can't
     stand more than a bunch of atheists who think all is well with the
     world.

     Furthermore, I used the example of school uniform as an example of
     the terrible conforming pressures on our children.

     Martin

     --- In atheismuk2@..., "Tim Sellers" <tim@t...> wrote:
     > That's right, and why has the Atheism UK group turned into a
     discussion about schools and discipline?  I don't send my daughter to
     school (for various reasons including the avoidance of religious
     bigots) and I want her to be FREE so she can think for herself (hence
     the avoidance of the said religious bigots).  Discussions on school
     uniforms are not relevant to religion! (although I don't see how
     forcing kids to comply to set standards can be a GOOD thing).
     >   ----- Original Message -----
     >   From: larryinlurex
     >   To: atheismuk2@...
     >   Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 11:43 AM
     >   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
     >
     >
     >   <climbs onto moral high horse>
     >
     >   I find it is generally a mistake to label entire groups of
     people,
     >   especially something like "cesspit brats".  Evil begins when you
     >   treat people as things...
     >
     >   <dismounts>
     >
     >   M.
     >
     >   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
     <anti.christ@n...>
     >   wrote:
     >   > Tis definitely a good school, and it tends to be parents who
     really
     >   WANT the kids to do well who send them there. So I think that
     maybe
     >   the kids do come from *better* homes where they are taught
     >   discipline.
     >   >
     >   > There are several schools within the catchment area, and those
     are
     >   where the cesspit brats are sent.
     >   >
     >   > Phil H.
     >
     >
     >
     >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
     >
     >
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     Service.
     >
     >
     >
     > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm glad you found being likened to a christian insulting!  I put that because
your previous comments made you sound like a bigot and I find religious people
the most bigoted group of people around.  The reason I don't like religion -
apart from the obvious reason that such people believe in things that very
probably aren't true - is that they want to assimilate people into their faith.
Religion is about control. I am passionately against religion because I believe
people should have as much freedom as possible.  All kids rebel - it's part of
growing up - but things are going to be much worse if you actually give them
something to rebel against (i.e. strict discipline).

Feel free to go back to fundy bashing now ....

Tim

----- Original Message -----
   From: Anti Christ
   To: atheismuk2@...
   Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 5:19 PM
   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act


   I appreciate that this thread has "gone of track", but here's my last
(hopefully!!).

   >>it was the guy going on about strict discipline being a good thing I was
disagreeing with

   You're perfectly right to disagree if you feel otherwise. As it happens, I
think that discipline in schools IS a good thing. I should imagine that most of
the teachers who have been assaulted and  abused, not just by pupils but their
parents, would come down on this side of of the fence.

   Don't get the idea that I want to bring back the birch or whatever. Children
should be taught to respect others by first of all respecting themselves, and
that mostly comes through teaching self control.

   And as for "hell, he almost sounds like a christian!!!".... Well, what bigger
insult can you hit someone with?? I'm mortally wounded!!

   By of explanation about why I don't move from Reading, I live in a housing
association house, and can't just put the house on the market and go elsewhere.

   Now, can we all get back to fundy bashing??

   Kind regards,

   Phil.
   ----------

   You missed the point - I agree with you about the "terrible conforming
pressures on our children" - it was the guy going on about strict discipline
being a good thing I was disagreeing with (hell, he almost sounds like a
christian!!!)
   larryinlurex <no_reply@...> wrote:Well, no-one was writing about
anything and there's nothing I can't
   stand more than a bunch of atheists who think all is well with the
   world.

   Furthermore, I used the example of school uniform as an example of
   the terrible conforming pressures on our children.

   Martin

   --- In atheismuk2@..., "Tim Sellers" <tim@t...> wrote:
   > That's right, and why has the Atheism UK group turned into a
   discussion about schools and discipline?  I don't send my daughter to
   school (for various reasons including the avoidance of religious
   bigots) and I want her to be FREE so she can think for herself (hence
   the avoidance of the said religious bigots).  Discussions on school
   uniforms are not relevant to religion! (although I don't see how
   forcing kids to comply to set standards can be a GOOD thing).
   >   ----- Original Message -----
   >   From: larryinlurex
   >   To: atheismuk2@...
   >   Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 11:43 AM
   >   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
   >
   >
   >   <climbs onto moral high horse>
   >
   >   I find it is generally a mistake to label entire groups of
   people,
   >   especially something like "cesspit brats".  Evil begins when you
   >   treat people as things...
   >
   >   <dismounts>
   >
   >   M.
   >
   >   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
   <anti.christ@n...>
   >   wrote:
   >   > Tis definitely a good school, and it tends to be parents who
   really
   >   WANT the kids to do well who send them there. So I think that
   maybe
   >   the kids do come from *better* homes where they are taught
   >   discipline.
   >   >
   >   > There are several schools within the catchment area, and those
   are
   >   where the cesspit brats are sent.
   >   >
   >   > Phil H.
   >
   >
   >
   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
   >
   >
   >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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   >
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   Service.
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I appreciate that this thread has "gone of track", but here's my last
(hopefully!!).

>>it was the guy going on about strict discipline being a good thing I was
disagreeing with

You're perfectly right to disagree if you feel otherwise. As it happens, I think
that discipline in schools IS a good thing. I should imagine that most of the
teachers who have been assaulted and  abused, not just by pupils but their
parents, would come down on this side of of the fence.

Don't get the idea that I want to bring back the birch or whatever. Children
should be taught to respect others by first of all respecting themselves, and
that mostly comes through teaching self control.

And as for "hell, he almost sounds like a christian!!!".... Well, what bigger
insult can you hit someone with?? I'm mortally wounded!!

By of explanation about why I don't move from Reading, I live in a housing
association house, and can't just put the house on the market and go elsewhere.

Now, can we all get back to fundy bashing??

Kind regards,

Phil.
----------

You missed the point - I agree with you about the "terrible conforming pressures
on our children" - it was the guy going on about strict discipline being a good
thing I was disagreeing with (hell, he almost sounds like a christian!!!)
  larryinlurex <no_reply@...> wrote:Well, no-one was writing about
anything and there's nothing I can't
stand more than a bunch of atheists who think all is well with the
world.

Furthermore, I used the example of school uniform as an example of
the terrible conforming pressures on our children.

Martin

--- In atheismuk2@..., "Tim Sellers" <tim@t...> wrote:
> That's right, and why has the Atheism UK group turned into a
discussion about schools and discipline?  I don't send my daughter to
school (for various reasons including the avoidance of religious
bigots) and I want her to be FREE so she can think for herself (hence
the avoidance of the said religious bigots).  Discussions on school
uniforms are not relevant to religion! (although I don't see how
forcing kids to comply to set standards can be a GOOD thing).
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: larryinlurex
>   To: atheismuk2@...
>   Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 11:43 AM
>   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
>
>
>   <climbs onto moral high horse>
>
>   I find it is generally a mistake to label entire groups of
people,
>   especially something like "cesspit brats".  Evil begins when you
>   treat people as things...
>
>   <dismounts>
>
>   M.
>
>   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
<anti.christ@n...>
>   wrote:
>   > Tis definitely a good school, and it tends to be parents who
really
>   WANT the kids to do well who send them there. So I think that
maybe
>   the kids do come from *better* homes where they are taught
>   discipline.
>   >
>   > There are several schools within the catchment area, and those
are
>   where the cesspit brats are sent.
>   >
>   > Phil H.
>
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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You missed the point - I agree with you about the "terrible conforming pressures
on our children" - it was the guy going on about strict discipline being a good
thing I was disagreeing with (hell, he almost sounds like a christian!!!)
  larryinlurex <no_reply@...> wrote:Well, no-one was writing about
anything and there's nothing I can't
stand more than a bunch of atheists who think all is well with the
world.

Furthermore, I used the example of school uniform as an example of
the terrible conforming pressures on our children.

Martin

--- In atheismuk2@..., "Tim Sellers" <tim@t...> wrote:
> That's right, and why has the Atheism UK group turned into a
discussion about schools and discipline?  I don't send my daughter to
school (for various reasons including the avoidance of religious
bigots) and I want her to be FREE so she can think for herself (hence
the avoidance of the said religious bigots).  Discussions on school
uniforms are not relevant to religion! (although I don't see how
forcing kids to comply to set standards can be a GOOD thing).
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: larryinlurex
>   To: atheismuk2@...
>   Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 11:43 AM
>   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
>
>
>   <climbs onto moral high horse>
>
>   I find it is generally a mistake to label entire groups of
people,
>   especially something like "cesspit brats".  Evil begins when you
>   treat people as things...
>
>   <dismounts>
>
>   M.
>
>   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
<anti.christ@n...>
>   wrote:
>   > Tis definitely a good school, and it tends to be parents who
really
>   WANT the kids to do well who send them there. So I think that
maybe
>   the kids do come from *better* homes where they are taught
>   discipline.
>   >
>   > There are several schools within the catchment area, and those
are
>   where the cesspit brats are sent.
>   >
>   > Phil H.
>
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
wrote:
> Martin, and all,
> If you climb onto on your <moral high horse> you should stay on it.
You
> shouldn't climb down after you've said your piece.

* Do you really think so?  I was going to let it pass but I think
your attitude isn't really appropriate.  If you hate Reading so much,
you should move.  There are towns with high levels of atheists,
perhaps you would be happier there.

Also, I've been to Reading and believe me, it is a paradise compared
to some places I've been.  But people are people.

M

Well, no-one was writing about anything and there's nothing I can't
stand more than a bunch of atheists who think all is well with the
world.

Furthermore, I used the example of school uniform as an example of
the terrible conforming pressures on our children.

Martin

--- In atheismuk2@..., "Tim Sellers" <tim@t...> wrote:
> That's right, and why has the Atheism UK group turned into a
discussion about schools and discipline?  I don't send my daughter to
school (for various reasons including the avoidance of religious
bigots) and I want her to be FREE so she can think for herself (hence
the avoidance of the said religious bigots).  Discussions on school
uniforms are not relevant to religion! (although I don't see how
forcing kids to comply to set standards can be a GOOD thing).
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: larryinlurex
>   To: atheismuk2@...
>   Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 11:43 AM
>   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
>
>
>   <climbs onto moral high horse>
>
>   I find it is generally a mistake to label entire groups of
people,
>   especially something like "cesspit brats".  Evil begins when you
>   treat people as things...
>
>   <dismounts>
>
>   M.
>
>   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
<anti.christ@n...>
>   wrote:
>   > Tis definitely a good school, and it tends to be parents who
really
>   WANT the kids to do well who send them there. So I think that
maybe
>   the kids do come from *better* homes where they are taught
>   discipline.
>   >
>   > There are several schools within the catchment area, and those
are
>   where the cesspit brats are sent.
>   >
>   > Phil H.
>
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
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>
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Martin, and all,
If you climb onto on your <moral high horse> you should stay on it. You
shouldn't climb down after you've said your piece.

I, too, have a "high horse", and it's all to do with the way my children are
educated. I object to any kind of religious inference in any of their
lessons. I object very strongly indeed, to the point where I have had
standup barnies with the governors and head masters of their previous
schools. The schools they go to now are a bit better in that respect
(although not good enough).

I stand by the way I described the denizens of this town, and reiterate my
opinion that the vast majority are nothing but effluent. Pig ignorant,
socially irresponsible criminals, and grist to the mills of all the weird,
wacky and extreme religious bigots which congregate in (yes, I'll say it
again) a cesspit like this. And that's only the parents of the "cesspit
brats".

If it's a mistake to label various groups of people and to categorise them,
why does this forum lump xians into all the same category.....sick dope
heads who should be able to think for themselves??

Regards,

Getting More Anti.


P.
----------
>From: larryinlurex <no_reply@...>
>Sent: Fri 11/04/2003 10:43
>To: atheismuk2@...
>Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
>
><climbs onto moral high horse>
>
>I find it is generally a mistake to label entire groups of people,
>especially something like "cesspit brats".  Evil begins when you
>treat people as things...
>
><dismounts>
>
>M.
>
>--- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
>wrote:
>> Tis definitely a good school, and it tends to be parents who really
>WANT the kids to do well who send them there. So I think that maybe
>the kids do come from *better* homes where they are taught
>discipline.
>>
>> There are several schools within the catchment area, and those are
>where the cesspit brats are sent.
>>
>> Phil H.
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html

That's right, and why has the Atheism UK group turned into a discussion about
schools and discipline?  I don't send my daughter to school (for various reasons
including the avoidance of religious bigots) and I want her to be FREE so she
can think for herself (hence the avoidance of the said religious bigots). 
Discussions on school uniforms are not relevant to religion! (although I don't
see how forcing kids to comply to set standards can be a GOOD thing).
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: larryinlurex
   To: atheismuk2@...
   Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 11:43 AM
   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act


   <climbs onto moral high horse>

   I find it is generally a mistake to label entire groups of people,
   especially something like "cesspit brats".  Evil begins when you
   treat people as things...

   <dismounts>

   M.

   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
   wrote:
   > Tis definitely a good school, and it tends to be parents who really
   WANT the kids to do well who send them there. So I think that maybe
   the kids do come from *better* homes where they are taught
   discipline.
   >
   > There are several schools within the catchment area, and those are
   where the cesspit brats are sent.
   >
   > Phil H.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<climbs onto moral high horse>

I find it is generally a mistake to label entire groups of people,
especially something like "cesspit brats".  Evil begins when you
treat people as things...

<dismounts>

M.

--- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
wrote:
> Tis definitely a good school, and it tends to be parents who really
WANT the kids to do well who send them there. So I think that maybe
the kids do come from *better* homes where they are taught
discipline.
>
> There are several schools within the catchment area, and those are
where the cesspit brats are sent.
>
> Phil H.

Tis definitely a good school, and it tends to be parents who really WANT the
kids to do well who send them there. So I think that maybe the kids do come from
*better* homes where they are taught discipline.

There are several schools within the catchment area, and those are where the
cesspit brats are sent.

Phil H.
----------
Sounds like a good school.  I do wonder though - do you think that
they are *able* to impose a rigid dress code *because* the children
aren't brats and can be disciplined?

I'm glad they are progressive in one way though, in not having a
religious assembly.  Maybe there is hope yet.

Martin C

--- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
wrote:
> Guess I agree with the school uniform.
>
> My daughter goes to an extremely good school (state comprehensive)
where discipline is very tight. School uniform is compulsory, and
there are strict rules about how it's worn (length of dress/skirt,
tucking shirt tails in etc).
>
> Other schools around this town don't bother with it, and the state
of those brats certainly reflect the fact that they're denizens of
the biggest cesspit in England (Reading).
>
> Mind you, the school does not do a religious assembly, and are
regularly criticised for it on Ofsted inspections.
>
>
> ----------
> School uniform is a good idea because it reduces truancy. The idea
isn't
> Victorian; you're confusing it with freedom of expression. Daily
religious
> assemblies are a violation of church and state; I remember how
awful it was
> sitting through blatently Xian-biased nonsense every day.
> Free young minds! End religious assemblies!
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: larryinlurex
>   To: atheismuk2@...
>   Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 5:45 PM
>   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
>
>
>   It is difficult, because most of the time children have difficulty
>   expressing an opposing view because of peer pressure and intense
>   pressure from their parents to conform - I understand that school
>   uniform has *still* not been abolished...how Victorian is that?
>
>   Martin C.
>
>   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
<anti.christ@n...>
>   wrote:
>   > Thing is, it's up to the parents. If the parents feel strongly
>   about it, they pull their child out of all religious stuff at
school.
>   If after that religion is still being inflicted, then that's a
>   different matter. It's between the parent and the LEA.
>   >
>   > But the way I see it is that they've got us by the dangly bits.
If
>   the parent doesn't pull the child out of religion, and then
religion
>   is inflicted upon the child, who would be held to blame?? The
parents
>   of course, because they hadn't made the effort to prevent it.
>   >
>   > Phil H.
>   > ----------
>   > I hope it has changed since when I went to school but certainly
it
>   > was very, very difficult to "opt out" of assembly then.
Because,
>   of
>   > course, we were children and our views didn't count.  I've been
>   anti-
>   > authoritarian ever since, especially arbitary, unelected
authority.
>   >
>   > Set the children free!
>   >
>   > Martin C.
>   >
>   > --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
<anti.christ@n...>
>   > wrote:
>   > > It's not the individual who is required to carry out an "act
of
>   > worship", but the school. Indiviuals can opt out of the
>   arrangements.
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > ----------
>   > > I am writing on the off chance that anyone may be able to
help me
>   > > with this.
>   > >
>   > > I have looked into the requirements of the Human Rights Act re
>   > > Article 9 of the European Convention (freedom of thought,
>   > conscience
>   > > and religion) and I have come to the conclusion that section
70
>   of
>   > > the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 (requiring
collective
>   > > worship) is incompatible with the Convention rights.
>   > >
>   > > In order to enforce this through the courts it is necessary to
>   > bring
>   > > proceedings as a victim of the alleged breach within the past
>   year,
>   > > ie a child who has been ordered by a public authority (ie LEA,
>   > school
>   > > etc.) to worship against their will.
>   > >
>   > > I am going to contact organisations such as the BHA and NSS to
>   see
>   > if
>   > > they can help with this and possibly finance a case.  Any help
>   > anyone
>   > > can provide would be much appreciated!
>   > >
>   > > Ross
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   > > atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>   > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
>   >
>   >
>   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   > atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
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>
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>
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Sounds like a good school.  I do wonder though - do you think that
they are *able* to impose a rigid dress code *because* the children
aren't brats and can be disciplined?

I'm glad they are progressive in one way though, in not having a
religious assembly.  Maybe there is hope yet.

Martin C

--- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
wrote:
> Guess I agree with the school uniform.
>
> My daughter goes to an extremely good school (state comprehensive)
where discipline is very tight. School uniform is compulsory, and
there are strict rules about how it's worn (length of dress/skirt,
tucking shirt tails in etc).
>
> Other schools around this town don't bother with it, and the state
of those brats certainly reflect the fact that they're denizens of
the biggest cesspit in England (Reading).
>
> Mind you, the school does not do a religious assembly, and are
regularly criticised for it on Ofsted inspections.
>
>
> ----------
> School uniform is a good idea because it reduces truancy. The idea
isn't
> Victorian; you're confusing it with freedom of expression. Daily
religious
> assemblies are a violation of church and state; I remember how
awful it was
> sitting through blatently Xian-biased nonsense every day.
> Free young minds! End religious assemblies!
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: larryinlurex
>   To: atheismuk2@...
>   Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 5:45 PM
>   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
>
>
>   It is difficult, because most of the time children have difficulty
>   expressing an opposing view because of peer pressure and intense
>   pressure from their parents to conform - I understand that school
>   uniform has *still* not been abolished...how Victorian is that?
>
>   Martin C.
>
>   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
<anti.christ@n...>
>   wrote:
>   > Thing is, it's up to the parents. If the parents feel strongly
>   about it, they pull their child out of all religious stuff at
school.
>   If after that religion is still being inflicted, then that's a
>   different matter. It's between the parent and the LEA.
>   >
>   > But the way I see it is that they've got us by the dangly bits.
If
>   the parent doesn't pull the child out of religion, and then
religion
>   is inflicted upon the child, who would be held to blame?? The
parents
>   of course, because they hadn't made the effort to prevent it.
>   >
>   > Phil H.
>   > ----------
>   > I hope it has changed since when I went to school but certainly
it
>   > was very, very difficult to "opt out" of assembly then.
Because,
>   of
>   > course, we were children and our views didn't count.  I've been
>   anti-
>   > authoritarian ever since, especially arbitary, unelected
authority.
>   >
>   > Set the children free!
>   >
>   > Martin C.
>   >
>   > --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
<anti.christ@n...>
>   > wrote:
>   > > It's not the individual who is required to carry out an "act
of
>   > worship", but the school. Indiviuals can opt out of the
>   arrangements.
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > ----------
>   > > I am writing on the off chance that anyone may be able to
help me
>   > > with this.
>   > >
>   > > I have looked into the requirements of the Human Rights Act re
>   > > Article 9 of the European Convention (freedom of thought,
>   > conscience
>   > > and religion) and I have come to the conclusion that section
70
>   of
>   > > the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 (requiring
collective
>   > > worship) is incompatible with the Convention rights.
>   > >
>   > > In order to enforce this through the courts it is necessary to
>   > bring
>   > > proceedings as a victim of the alleged breach within the past
>   year,
>   > > ie a child who has been ordered by a public authority (ie LEA,
>   > school
>   > > etc.) to worship against their will.
>   > >
>   > > I am going to contact organisations such as the BHA and NSS to
>   see
>   > if
>   > > they can help with this and possibly finance a case.  Any help
>   > anyone
>   > > can provide would be much appreciated!
>   > >
>   > > Ross
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   > > atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>   > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
>   >
>   >
>   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   > atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>   http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
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Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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I was just using uniform as an example of the way chldren are forced
to conform really, I didn't particularly want to invoke some Human
Rights Act.  I think it is strange that children in other parts of
the world still manage to attend school regularly without wearing a
uniform though.  I think one has little to do with the other, frankly
but it is part of the social conforming pressure on children.

Martin C.

--- In atheismuk2@..., "Tony Kehoe" <elite@g...> wrote:
> School uniform is a good idea because it reduces truancy. The idea
isn't
> Victorian; you're confusing it with freedom of expression. Daily
religious
> assemblies are a violation of church and state; I remember how
awful it was
> sitting through blatently Xian-biased nonsense every day.
> Free young minds! End religious assemblies!
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: larryinlurex
>   To: atheismuk2@...
>   Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 5:45 PM
>   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act
>
>
>   It is difficult, because most of the time children have difficulty
>   expressing an opposing view because of peer pressure and intense
>   pressure from their parents to conform - I understand that school
>   uniform has *still* not been abolished...how Victorian is that?
>
>   Martin C.
>
>   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
<anti.christ@n...>
>   wrote:
>   > Thing is, it's up to the parents. If the parents feel strongly
>   about it, they pull their child out of all religious stuff at
school.
>   If after that religion is still being inflicted, then that's a
>   different matter. It's between the parent and the LEA.
>   >
>   > But the way I see it is that they've got us by the dangly bits.
If
>   the parent doesn't pull the child out of religion, and then
religion
>   is inflicted upon the child, who would be held to blame?? The
parents
>   of course, because they hadn't made the effort to prevent it.
>   >
>   > Phil H.
>   > ----------
>   > I hope it has changed since when I went to school but certainly
it
>   > was very, very difficult to "opt out" of assembly then.
Because,
>   of
>   > course, we were children and our views didn't count.  I've been
>   anti-
>   > authoritarian ever since, especially arbitary, unelected
authority.
>   >
>   > Set the children free!
>   >
>   > Martin C.
>   >
>   > --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ
<anti.christ@n...>
>   > wrote:
>   > > It's not the individual who is required to carry out an "act
of
>   > worship", but the school. Indiviuals can opt out of the
>   arrangements.
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > ----------
>   > > I am writing on the off chance that anyone may be able to
help me
>   > > with this.
>   > >
>   > > I have looked into the requirements of the Human Rights Act re
>   > > Article 9 of the European Convention (freedom of thought,
>   > conscience
>   > > and religion) and I have come to the conclusion that section
70
>   of
>   > > the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 (requiring
collective
>   > > worship) is incompatible with the Convention rights.
>   > >
>   > > In order to enforce this through the courts it is necessary to
>   > bring
>   > > proceedings as a victim of the alleged breach within the past
>   year,
>   > > ie a child who has been ordered by a public authority (ie LEA,
>   > school
>   > > etc.) to worship against their will.
>   > >
>   > > I am going to contact organisations such as the BHA and NSS to
>   see
>   > if
>   > > they can help with this and possibly finance a case.  Any help
>   > anyone
>   > > can provide would be much appreciated!
>   > >
>   > > Ross
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   > > atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>   > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
>   >
>   >
>   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   > atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>   http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
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>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Guess I agree with the school uniform.

My daughter goes to an extremely good school (state comprehensive) where
discipline is very tight. School uniform is compulsory, and there are strict
rules about how it's worn (length of dress/skirt, tucking shirt tails in etc).

Other schools around this town don't bother with it, and the state of those
brats certainly reflect the fact that they're denizens of the biggest cesspit in
England (Reading).

Mind you, the school does not do a religious assembly, and are regularly
criticised for it on Ofsted inspections.


----------
School uniform is a good idea because it reduces truancy. The idea isn't
Victorian; you're confusing it with freedom of expression. Daily religious
assemblies are a violation of church and state; I remember how awful it was
sitting through blatently Xian-biased nonsense every day.
Free young minds! End religious assemblies!
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: larryinlurex
   To: atheismuk2@...
   Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 5:45 PM
   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act


   It is difficult, because most of the time children have difficulty
   expressing an opposing view because of peer pressure and intense
   pressure from their parents to conform - I understand that school
   uniform has *still* not been abolished...how Victorian is that?

   Martin C.

   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
   wrote:
   > Thing is, it's up to the parents. If the parents feel strongly
   about it, they pull their child out of all religious stuff at school.
   If after that religion is still being inflicted, then that's a
   different matter. It's between the parent and the LEA.
   >
   > But the way I see it is that they've got us by the dangly bits. If
   the parent doesn't pull the child out of religion, and then religion
   is inflicted upon the child, who would be held to blame?? The parents
   of course, because they hadn't made the effort to prevent it.
   >
   > Phil H.
   > ----------
   > I hope it has changed since when I went to school but certainly it
   > was very, very difficult to "opt out" of assembly then.  Because,
   of
   > course, we were children and our views didn't count.  I've been
   anti-
   > authoritarian ever since, especially arbitary, unelected authority.
   >
   > Set the children free!
   >
   > Martin C.
   >
   > --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
   > wrote:
   > > It's not the individual who is required to carry out an "act of
   > worship", but the school. Indiviuals can opt out of the
   arrangements.
   > >
   > >
   > > ----------
   > > I am writing on the off chance that anyone may be able to help me
   > > with this.
   > >
   > > I have looked into the requirements of the Human Rights Act re
   > > Article 9 of the European Convention (freedom of thought,
   > conscience
   > > and religion) and I have come to the conclusion that section 70
   of
   > > the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 (requiring collective
   > > worship) is incompatible with the Convention rights.
   > >
   > > In order to enforce this through the courts it is necessary to
   > bring
   > > proceedings as a victim of the alleged breach within the past
   year,
   > > ie a child who has been ordered by a public authority (ie LEA,
   > school
   > > etc.) to worship against their will.
   > >
   > > I am going to contact organisations such as the BHA and NSS to
   see
   > if
   > > they can help with this and possibly finance a case.  Any help
   > anyone
   > > can provide would be much appreciated!
   > >
   > > Ross
   > >
   > >
   > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   > > atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
   > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
   >
   >
   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   > atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
   >
   >
   >
   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
   http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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School uniform is a good idea because it reduces truancy. The idea isn't
Victorian; you're confusing it with freedom of expression. Daily religious
assemblies are a violation of church and state; I remember how awful it was
sitting through blatently Xian-biased nonsense every day.
Free young minds! End religious assemblies!
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: larryinlurex
   To: atheismuk2@...
   Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 5:45 PM
   Subject: Re:[Atheism UK] Collective worship and Human Rights Act


   It is difficult, because most of the time children have difficulty
   expressing an opposing view because of peer pressure and intense
   pressure from their parents to conform - I understand that school
   uniform has *still* not been abolished...how Victorian is that?

   Martin C.

   --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
   wrote:
   > Thing is, it's up to the parents. If the parents feel strongly
   about it, they pull their child out of all religious stuff at school.
   If after that religion is still being inflicted, then that's a
   different matter. It's between the parent and the LEA.
   >
   > But the way I see it is that they've got us by the dangly bits. If
   the parent doesn't pull the child out of religion, and then religion
   is inflicted upon the child, who would be held to blame?? The parents
   of course, because they hadn't made the effort to prevent it.
   >
   > Phil H.
   > ----------
   > I hope it has changed since when I went to school but certainly it
   > was very, very difficult to "opt out" of assembly then.  Because,
   of
   > course, we were children and our views didn't count.  I've been
   anti-
   > authoritarian ever since, especially arbitary, unelected authority.
   >
   > Set the children free!
   >
   > Martin C.
   >
   > --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
   > wrote:
   > > It's not the individual who is required to carry out an "act of
   > worship", but the school. Indiviuals can opt out of the
   arrangements.
   > >
   > >
   > > ----------
   > > I am writing on the off chance that anyone may be able to help me
   > > with this.
   > >
   > > I have looked into the requirements of the Human Rights Act re
   > > Article 9 of the European Convention (freedom of thought,
   > conscience
   > > and religion) and I have come to the conclusion that section 70
   of
   > > the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 (requiring collective
   > > worship) is incompatible with the Convention rights.
   > >
   > > In order to enforce this through the courts it is necessary to
   > bring
   > > proceedings as a victim of the alleged breach within the past
   year,
   > > ie a child who has been ordered by a public authority (ie LEA,
   > school
   > > etc.) to worship against their will.
   > >
   > > I am going to contact organisations such as the BHA and NSS to
   see
   > if
   > > they can help with this and possibly finance a case.  Any help
   > anyone
   > > can provide would be much appreciated!
   > >
   > > Ross
   > >
   > >
   > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   > > atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
   > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
   >
   >
   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   > atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
   >
   >
   >
   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
   http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In atheismuk2@..., stepsmad_uk <no_reply@y...>
wrote:
> Thanks for all your comments.
>
> Let me quote the section in question:
>
> "Subject to section 71, each child in attendance at a community,
> foundation or voluntary school *shall* on each school day *take
part*
> in an act of collective worship."

* Yeah.  If religion is so damn good, why does it have to be
compulsory?  Other things (which are good) are not imposed on
children - voting, democracy, philosophy, bank accounts, chocolate
chip...

Martin C.

The problem in this country is, as usual, history.  In order to
comprehensivise the schools, one of the compromises that were made
with the Church schools that were taken over were the compulsory act
of worship.  Obviously in more advanced countries they have
separation of Church and State so the question of sneaking religion
into the classroom shouldn't arise.  Obviously here we have the
Church and State as one person, which is a bit awkward if you think
that Government should be about checks and balances.

As an aside, did anyone notice that Saddam was attacked for having
11.8 square miles of land devoted to his palaces?  Anyone like to
take a guess at how many hundreds of square miles the Queen owns?

(By the way, this is a trick question because there is no public
record of the land the Queen owns)

Martin C.

--- In atheismuk2@..., "Tim Sellers" <tim@t...> wrote:
> Technically the parents can withdrawal their kids from religious
education (a contradiction in terms?), assemblies etc - but many
teachers (if they are religious themselves) manage to sneak such
things into ordinary lessons, especially when teaching younger
children.  I have a 5 year old relative who has to thank god everyday
for his sandwiches.
> My daughter is home educated (for various reasons, not just to
avoid religion) so we don't have this problem. It seems that if you
send your kids to school they will be subjected to all kinds of bad
influences, religion being just one. Pulling them out of R.E. and
assemblies causes awkward questions - after all, how do you tell a
child that they have to avoid certain lessons because the teacher is
teaching them about things that very probably aren't true? Surely
THIS can't be right - and shouldn't be legal?
>
> Tim

It is difficult, because most of the time children have difficulty
expressing an opposing view because of peer pressure and intense
pressure from their parents to conform - I understand that school
uniform has *still* not been abolished...how Victorian is that?

Martin C.

--- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
wrote:
> Thing is, it's up to the parents. If the parents feel strongly
about it, they pull their child out of all religious stuff at school.
If after that religion is still being inflicted, then that's a
different matter. It's between the parent and the LEA.
>
> But the way I see it is that they've got us by the dangly bits. If
the parent doesn't pull the child out of religion, and then religion
is inflicted upon the child, who would be held to blame?? The parents
of course, because they hadn't made the effort to prevent it.
>
> Phil H.
> ----------
> I hope it has changed since when I went to school but certainly it
> was very, very difficult to "opt out" of assembly then.  Because,
of
> course, we were children and our views didn't count.  I've been
anti-
> authoritarian ever since, especially arbitary, unelected authority.
>
> Set the children free!
>
> Martin C.
>
> --- In atheismuk2@..., Anti Christ <anti.christ@n...>
> wrote:
> > It's not the individual who is required to carry out an "act of
> worship", but the school. Indiviuals can opt out of the
arrangements.
> >
> >
> > ----------
> > I am writing on the off chance that anyone may be able to help me
> > with this.
> >
> > I have looked into the requirements of the Human Rights Act re
> > Article 9 of the European Convention (freedom of thought,
> conscience
> > and religion) and I have come to the conclusion that section 70
of
> > the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 (requiring collective
> > worship) is incompatible with the Convention rights.
> >
> > In order to enforce this through the courts it is necessary to
> bring
> > proceedings as a victim of the alleged breach within the past
year,
> > ie a child who has been ordered by a public authority (ie LEA,
> school
> > etc.) to worship against their will.
> >
> > I am going to contact organisations such as the BHA and NSS to
see
> if
> > they can help with this and possibly finance a case.  Any help
> anyone
> > can provide would be much appreciated!
> >
> > Ross
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> atheismuk2-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html

Thanks for all your comments.

Let me quote the section in question:

"Subject to section 71, each child in attendance at a community,
foundation or voluntary school *shall* on each school day *take part*
in an act of collective worship."

The LEA, governing body and head teacher shall exercise their
functions with a view to securing that this is complied with.  That
is the law requires a public authority to force individuals to take
part in acts of worship.

In mitigation, parents have the right to withdraw their children
(section 71), but does this make the legislation compatible?  In my
view it certainly does not, as the right under Article 9 to freedom
of religion belongs in principle to the child, but the parent is
given the power to exercise that right on behalf of the child when
necessary for its proper expression.  It seems to me that the child
will in most cases be fully capable of expressing its right by the
age of about 14 and in some cases younger.  Therefore it is not
acceptable from the point of view of the rights of the child that a
person fully versed in matters of thought, conscience and religion
and holding a completely contradictory view to that of their parents
should be forced to subjugate their own view, particularly given the
fundamental nature of the right to freedom of religion which is one
of the few absolute rights that the Convention protects.

Further, this provision is not age limited but applies to anyone
attending a school, including those over 18.  Is an adult of full
capacity to be forced to worship subject to the withdrawal rights of
a third party?  That would be like the law saying "every second
Wednesday, everyone in the borough of Trafford will take part in an
act of ritual slaughter of a goat, subject to the right of that
person's next door neighbour to exempt them from this requirement".
Once a young person is capable, they are entitled to give effect to
their own rights and not rely for protection on the opinion of
someone could hold a completely contradictory view, irrespective of
whether that person is related to them or not.

If someone aged 18 has their rights breached under this provision
then so do all those in an 'analagous situation' without
discrimination on the grounds of age, under Article 14.  I would
argue that all those in Year 12 are analagous to someone in Year 13,
and if we recognise that 16 year olds are sufficiently sensible to
make these very important decisions (as we do about so many other
things), then we can extend that to Years 10 and 11 as well.