whew thanks ian about the pious bit!
re this whole discussion, i'm not actually so very interested in the vegetarianism per se, as in the issues it is bringing up, for example the one you raise ian, about where to draw the line. i can imagine similar discussions taking place a couple of hundred years ago about slavery: suppose you go to a dinner party, and the food is served by a slave - do you just go along with that, or do you speak up ? or do you think it's none of your business whether or not your host keeps slaves? what about if you hear screams and your host murmurs something along the lines of 'you have to flog them, keep them in line' - is it still none of your business? more recently, in nazi germany, might there have been similar discussions about government policy towards people deemed beyond the pale of the community - 'should we speak up, or is it none of our business?'? as a society we make laws to protect those who are vulnerable to exploitation. is that a fundamentalist interference with the right of those people who want, for example, to enslave others, or even just pay very small wages or run rachman-type rental rackets? the ancient greek civilisation owed its wealth to slavery. india to this day operates a caste system of religiously and socially sanctioned apartheid which denies people access to essentials like water. i have south african relatives whose take on the south african apartheid system was that it was entirely right and proper (verbatim quote from my aunt: 'i don't understand the fuss - my servants are very happy'), and that conditions in the gold and diamond mines must be ok because 'look at all the people who want to come and work there - they wouldn't come if they didnt like it.' i think apartheid is wrong and i will say so (altho, cravenly, i wouldn't say it very loudly at a gathering of the friends of eugene terre-blanche!). does that make me a fundamentalist? the buddha spoke out against the caste system and would not permit his students to perpetuate it among the buddhist community. was he wrong to impose his views in that way? what about the people who stood up for the principle of women's equality in europe - were they wrong to do that? should they just have kept quiet, saying, 'oh, no, we mustn't say anything; it's wrong for us to impose our views on others'? is it ok nowadays for people elsewhere to continue to oppress women, even practise genital mutilation on them as in africa, or dowry burning as in india? is it wrong for other people to criticize that behaviour and suggest different ways of behaving - and maybe even, gosh, interfere so far as to take steps to try to enforce new rules until they become the norm?
and of course, down here on exmoor, we have the excellent example of hunting! who is in the right - those who insist on being allowed to continue the fun of chasing and tearing wild animals apart with packs of dogs, or the pious left-wing animal-rights loonies who try to stop them? (and don't for a moment be so naive as to imagine that the change in the law has made any difference - exmoor hunting people are simply ignoring the law and carrying on exactly the same, as though it never happened. they careered cheerfully through the farm where i keep my mare yesterday, leaving chaos in their wake. personally i'm only too keen to do whatever it takes to stop the bastards - and i don't care if they do call me a pious animal-rights loony, so there!)
i think we have a very nice koan to work with here!
love
cait
----- Original Message -----From: Ian StuartTo: bbgforum@...Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 8:22 AMSubject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat
Hands up anyone who thinks Cait pious!!!! I cna't believe that one!It's an interesting one.......... I'm all for a convincing argument that someone is damaging themselves, however where to draw the line at I'm right and you're wrong....... I believe that here is one of our probs in society at present! ..........the path to fundamentalism. How far can we go in enforcing 'a truth'. Informing a person of a trap may prepare them to learn and grow... I have certainy been told by others not to do things and ignored them ! However sometimes i have been more prepared, and learned .......What was it the philosopher Marley said about ism/scism?Ian x----- Original Message -----From: Cait CollinsSent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:48 AMSubject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat
i do like all this gentle not-imposing-my-views- on-others- it's-not- BC (buddhistically correct!) stuff! however i can't resist spicing the discussion up a bit! i wonder if the following questions might apply here? should this admirable hands-off policy extend to letting someone walk into a trap they can't see and don't believe is there? or someone beat up another person? or steal someone else's property? or, in other words, from one aspect, should we take action to stop someone engaging in an action which may bring about an apparent short-term gain but which we believe is likely to lead to longer-term suffering? and then, from another aspect, should we take action to protect someone who is being exploited by another person - ie do whatever is necessary to stop the exploitation?i think there is a danger in the extreme of moral absolutism, and also a danger in the extreme of moral relativism! let's hear it for a middle way! there's a case for standing up for principles, even if that may be rather an uncomfortable thing to do - it takes courage, and skill to do it effectively without just strengthening other people's opposition. and i also think it's important to examine our motivation for keeping quiet - i know in my own case it's often a wish not to upset people and incur their anger or give them reason to think poorly of me - i don't like people to think of me as an interfering old bat, or even worse a goodygoody twoshoes! and god forbid anyone should think me pious! so for me, my primary motivation for keeping quiet is usually less about respecting others' rights to do their own thing, and more about my own cowardice, mixed in with a bit of vanity.actually, it's interesting to be writing and sending this message - a small and timid part of me is saying -'uh-oh, be careful, they won't like this...'!with lovecait----- Original Message -----From: Ian StuartSent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:51 PMSubject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat
Hi SueI agree, it's difficult (and not my idea of personal responsibility) to tell others what to do, it need sto be from them I think....... we make choices and take responsibility for themIan x----- Original Message -----From: MICHAEL FORSYTHSent: Monday, February 05, 2007 8:29 PMSubject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat
Hi all,I was thinking about this today at work and I have to say I'm feeling all confused and at sixes and sevens about what to do. Like Sarah I've been a Veggie for the majority of my life and it was never a choice for me, just a relief that I didn't have to eat meat any more. But, Mike and the kids eat meat which I have to buy and cook and present in front of them. I don't cook meat for them every day, but it's probably 5 days a week. Do I now refuse to buy or prepare meat because this is what I want to do? Is it fair for me to force my opinions and beliefs on the other people I live with? That's not what Buddhism is all about and not what I'm about either.I have decided to stop working at the farm as my part in the proceedings seems too close at the moment but I won't stop buying or preparing meat. I feel that a good compromise for me is to make sure I buy organic meat when I can and to think about what I'm cooking and the kids and Mike are eating - honouring the sentient being if you like rather than making it some invisible and anonymous hunk of food. I'm still uneasy about it but I'm not sure what else to do - and I want to do something.X Sue
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