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#117 From: Rmrichardsonuk@...
Date: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:12 pm
Subject: Fwd: poem from India Rmrichardsonuk@...
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For the pilgrims, from Bruno:

WALKING WITH BUDDHA

[Lumbini]

Buddha is born in the here and now.

The trees and the blossoms, the forest bears witness.

[Kapilavastu]

The cocoon of the familiar, in time, is renounced

To wander and search in the vast present moment.

[Bodhgaya]

After so many gurus, exertion and hardship,

Stretched almost to breaking, you chose a new path.

Oh what a release just to sit on this cushion,

The simplest of grasses, beneath a great tree.

As every day opens to night, into daytime,

From evening to morning, from dusk into dawn,

The Mind also opens and drops all delusion.

The Heart lotus blossoms, all grasping released.

The morning star dawning, sun’s rays shine impartially,

Completely awake, free from all complexity.

So vivid and peaceful, in openness and contentment,

The true perfect Buddha is found in one’s heart.

[Sarnath]

The truth overflows and the parkland rejoices.

The deer all come closer to hear the good news:

The mind with its torments and all of its grasping,

Cut through by Awareness, for all time, is free!

[Rajgir]

A Song of Perfection is sung from the mountain

To valleys and hilltops, to trees, to the sky:

All things are empty and yet they appear,

Like so many rainbows, mirages, and dreams.

Remembering this, be a child of illusion,

With purest perception, beyond hope and fear.

Rejoice all who hear this, the plants and the stones,

The breezes that carry it in every direction.

The great panorama, the view, chants its answer:

Halleluia! Hosanna! Gloria! Amen!

Thus have I heard… Halleluia! Hosanna!

Thus it is my dear friend… Halleluia! Amen!

Gaté, gaté, paragaté,

Parasamgaté, bodhi, soha…

[Kushinagar]

Everything that is born also must die-

Kings, beggars, buddhas, and me.

A last sip of water, a few final teachings.

Oh child of illusion, remember these words:

You are the Buddha, remember, remember.

And you are Salvation, remember these words.

The deathless unending Nature of Mind,

Unborn and unceasing, with Nature like the Sky.

Sit like a mountain, reflect stars on the water,

Like the wings of an eagle about to take flight.

Rest in Natural Great Peace, my dear friend.

The Nature of Mind is Pure Light, remember.

Lux aeterna, requiem aeternam,

Parasamgaté, bodhi, soha.

(Tashi Rabjay.

January 2007, India.)

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#116 From: Rmrichardsonuk@...
Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 3:02 pm
Subject: Re: Instructions on not eating meat Rmrichardsonuk@...
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just found this on the web

QUOTE(Karma Gedun @ Jan 29 2007, 02:08 PM)

HH The Karmarpa was not issuing a diktat on meat eating , he was suggesting a reflection on it.

I'm not sure that this is entirely correct. From Vin Harris' report of HH Karmapa's teaching at the monlam, he does rule out eating meat and drinking alcohol at Kagyu centres and monasteries.

QUOTE

With immediate effect:
·No meat is to be prepared in the kitchen of any Kagyu Monastery or Centre
·No one is to be involved in the business of buying and selling meat – for all of His followers this practice must stop.
·There is to be no killing of animals on Kagyu premises – the slaughterhouse at Turphu must be closed.
·He is aware of monks in robes going to buy meat and does not want to see this ever again.

Perhaps Vin Harris has not represented HH Karmapa's teaching correctly, and I would like to see a full translation of HH Karmapa's teaching as soon as possible. But if the text does faithfully reflect the intention of HH Karmapa, such an event would be going against it.

Best wishes,
Michael.

I have heard multiple interpretations of this speech by others that were there.....we should wait for the transcript to avoid confusion......from what I heard....it seems Vin's notes may be a bit heavy-handed. cool sage.gif

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#115 From: "Ian Stuart" <ian@...>
Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 11:22 pm
Subject: meat and language ianstusamsara7
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Hey this is interesting; I am starting to think of how we in society attempt to get our message accross.

listening to the news and th emedia in general I hear a lot of people telling others that they are 'talking nonsense', that 'what they should do is.......', 'they shouldn't do that.....' etc and i find it annoying and not at all helpful.

One of the presuppositions of NLP is: The meaning of the communication is not simply what you intend, but also the response you get; This response may be different from the one you wanted, but there are no failures in communication, only responses and feedback. If you are not getting the result you want, change what you are doing. Take responsibility for the communication.

My understanding of this is that communication is what is heard; not what is intended. Today I heard one of the Muslims questioned about the 'kidnap plots' say that Muslims are 'living in a police state'; the response from govt officials was that 'this was nonsense'. Surely if this gentleman's experience is of victimisation, then that is his experience; as William James said; 'for the moment what we attend to is reality'. (If I believe that the rope in the dark is a snake then i treat it as a snake). It is the job of communicators to convey their message, and if this is misunderstood then it is up to them to clarify, not to criticise the intelligence of the listener.

In his writings on 'Non Violent Communication', Marshall Rosenberg talks of avoiding imperatives such as 'should, must, shouldn't, mustn't' etc, and of finding a way to understand another's point of view and speaking to them in their language. (see the attachment for an essay by Rosenberg).

I believe this is not about moral relativism, but about clarity of expression. As the Humanists say, 'all actions have positive intent;' even the mugger has the positive intent of reducing his / her suffering, they may be deluded, and that is something different, the communication is about introducing another perspective in such a way that it is heard.

Cait you say 'interfere so far as to take steps to try to enforce new rules until they become the norm?' I agree, however I disagree about 'enforcing.' I believe that true democracy is about government by consent, not by force of law, sometimes this may be necessary; but only as a last resort, surely it is more effective to convince than to enforce?

I know this is rambling a bit, but these are my thoughts as they occur.............. !!

with love Ian

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#114 From: "Cait Collins" <cait@...>
Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 10:13 am
Subject: Re: Instructions on not eating meat cait@...
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whew thanks ian about the pious bit!

re this whole discussion, i'm not actually so very interested in the vegetarianism per se, as in the issues it is bringing up, for example the one you raise ian, about where to draw the line. i can imagine similar discussions taking place a couple of hundred years ago about slavery: suppose you go to a dinner party, and the food is served by a slave - do you just go along with that, or do you speak up ? or do you think it's none of your business whether or not your host keeps slaves? what about if you hear screams and your host murmurs something along the lines of 'you have to flog them, keep them in line' - is it still none of your business? more recently, in nazi germany, might there have been similar discussions about government policy towards people deemed beyond the pale of the community - 'should we speak up, or is it none of our business?'? as a society we make laws to protect those who are vulnerable to exploitation. is that a fundamentalist interference with the right of those people who want, for example, to enslave others, or even just pay very small wages or run rachman-type rental rackets? the ancient greek civilisation owed its wealth to slavery. india to this day operates a caste system of religiously and socially sanctioned apartheid which denies people access to essentials like water. i have south african relatives whose take on the south african apartheid system was that it was entirely right and proper (verbatim quote from my aunt: 'i don't understand the fuss - my servants are very happy'), and that conditions in the gold and diamond mines must be ok because 'look at all the people who want to come and work there - they wouldn't come if they didnt like it.' i think apartheid is wrong and i will say so (altho, cravenly, i wouldn't say it very loudly at a gathering of the friends of eugene terre-blanche!). does that make me a fundamentalist? the buddha spoke out against the caste system and would not permit his students to perpetuate it among the buddhist community. was he wrong to impose his views in that way? what about the people who stood up for the principle of women's equality in europe - were they wrong to do that? should they just have kept quiet, saying, 'oh, no, we mustn't say anything; it's wrong for us to impose our views on others'? is it ok nowadays for people elsewhere to continue to oppress women, even practise genital mutilation on them as in africa, or dowry burning as in india? is it wrong for other people to criticize that behaviour and suggest different ways of behaving - and maybe even, gosh, interfere so far as to take steps to try to enforce new rules until they become the norm?

and of course, down here on exmoor, we have the excellent example of hunting! who is in the right - those who insist on being allowed to continue the fun of chasing and tearing wild animals apart with packs of dogs, or the pious left-wing animal-rights loonies who try to stop them? (and don't for a moment be so naive as to imagine that the change in the law has made any difference - exmoor hunting people are simply ignoring the law and carrying on exactly the same, as though it never happened. they careered cheerfully through the farm where i keep my mare yesterday, leaving chaos in their wake. personally i'm only too keen to do whatever it takes to stop the bastards - and i don't care if they do call me a pious animal-rights loony, so there!)

i think we have a very nice koan to work with here!

love

cait

----- Original Message -----

From: Ian Stuart

To: bbgforum@...

Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 8:22 AM

Subject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat

Hands up anyone who thinks Cait pious!!!! I cna't believe that one!

It's an interesting one.......... I'm all for a convincing argument that someone is damaging themselves, however where to draw the line at I'm right and you're wrong....... I believe that here is one of our probs in society at present! ..........the path to fundamentalism.

How far can we go in enforcing 'a truth'. Informing a person of a trap may prepare them to learn and grow... I have certainy been told by others not to do things and ignored them ! However sometimes i have been more prepared, and learned .......

What was it the philosopher Marley said about ism/scism?

Ian x

----- Original Message -----

From: Cait Collins

To: bbgforum@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:48 AM

Subject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat

i do like all this gentle not-imposing-my-views-on-others-it's-not-BC (buddhistically correct!) stuff! however i can't resist spicing the discussion up a bit!

i wonder if the following questions might apply here? should this admirable hands-off policy extend to letting someone walk into a trap they can't see and don't believe is there? or someone beat up another person? or steal someone else's property? or, in other words, from one aspect, should we take action to stop someone engaging in an action which may bring about an apparent short-term gain but which we believe is likely to lead to longer-term suffering? and then, from another aspect, should we take action to protect someone who is being exploited by another person - ie do whatever is necessary to stop the exploitation?

i think there is a danger in the extreme of moral absolutism, and also a danger in the extreme of moral relativism! let's hear it for a middle way! there's a case for standing up for principles, even if that may be rather an uncomfortable thing to do - it takes courage, and skill to do it effectively without just strengthening other people's opposition. and i also think it's important to examine our motivation for keeping quiet - i know in my own case it's often a wish not to upset people and incur their anger or give them reason to think poorly of me - i don't like people to think of me as an interfering old bat, or even worse a goodygoody twoshoes! and god forbid anyone should think me pious! so for me, my primary motivation for keeping quiet is usually less about respecting others' rights to do their own thing, and more about my own cowardice, mixed in with a bit of vanity.

actually, it's interesting to be writing and sending this message - a small and timid part of me is saying -'uh-oh, be careful, they won't like this...'!

with love

cait

----- Original Message -----

From: Ian Stuart

To: bbgforum@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:51 PM

Subject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat

Hi Sue

I agree, it's difficult (and not my idea of personal responsibility) to tell others what to do, it need sto be from them I think....... we make choices and take responsibility for them

Ian x

----- Original Message -----

From: MICHAEL FORSYTH

To: bbgforum@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 8:29 PM

Subject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat

Hi all,

I was thinking about this today at work and I have to say I'm feeling all confused and at sixes and sevens about what to do. Like Sarah I've been a Veggie for the majority of my life and it was never a choice for me, just a relief that I didn't have to eat meat any more. But, Mike and the kids eat meat which I have to buy and cook and present in front of them. I don't cook meat for them every day, but it's probably 5 days a week. Do I now refuse to buy or prepare meat because this is what I want to do? Is it fair for me to force my opinions and beliefs on the other people I live with? That's not what Buddhism is all about and not what I'm about either.

I have decided to stop working at the farm as my part in the proceedings seems too close at the moment but I won't stop buying or preparing meat. I feel that a good compromise for me is to make sure I buy organic meat when I can and to think about what I'm cooking and the kids and Mike are eating - honouring the sentient being if you like rather than making it some invisible and anonymous hunk of food. I'm still uneasy about it but I'm not sure what else to do - and I want to do something.

X Sue

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#113 From: "Ian Stuart" <ian@...>
Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 8:22 am
Subject: Re: Instructions on not eating meat ianstusamsara7
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Hands up anyone who thinks Cait pious!!!! I cna't believe that one!

It's an interesting one.......... I'm all for a convincing argument that someone is damaging themselves, however where to draw the line at I'm right and you're wrong....... I believe that here is one of our probs in society at present! ..........the path to fundamentalism.

How far can we go in enforcing 'a truth'. Informing a person of a trap may prepare them to learn and grow... I have certainy been told by others not to do things and ignored them ! However sometimes i have been more prepared, and learned .......

What was it the philosopher Marley said about ism/scism?

Ian x

----- Original Message -----

From: Cait Collins

To: bbgforum@...

Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:48 AM

Subject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat

i do like all this gentle not-imposing-my-views-on-others-it's-not-BC (buddhistically correct!) stuff! however i can't resist spicing the discussion up a bit!

i wonder if the following questions might apply here? should this admirable hands-off policy extend to letting someone walk into a trap they can't see and don't believe is there? or someone beat up another person? or steal someone else's property? or, in other words, from one aspect, should we take action to stop someone engaging in an action which may bring about an apparent short-term gain but which we believe is likely to lead to longer-term suffering? and then, from another aspect, should we take action to protect someone who is being exploited by another person - ie do whatever is necessary to stop the exploitation?

i think there is a danger in the extreme of moral absolutism, and also a danger in the extreme of moral relativism! let's hear it for a middle way! there's a case for standing up for principles, even if that may be rather an uncomfortable thing to do - it takes courage, and skill to do it effectively without just strengthening other people's opposition. and i also think it's important to examine our motivation for keeping quiet - i know in my own case it's often a wish not to upset people and incur their anger or give them reason to think poorly of me - i don't like people to think of me as an interfering old bat, or even worse a goodygoody twoshoes! and god forbid anyone should think me pious! so for me, my primary motivation for keeping quiet is usually less about respecting others' rights to do their own thing, and more about my own cowardice, mixed in with a bit of vanity.

actually, it's interesting to be writing and sending this message - a small and timid part of me is saying -'uh-oh, be careful, they won't like this...'!

with love

cait

----- Original Message -----

From: Ian Stuart

To: bbgforum@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:51 PM

Subject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat

Hi Sue

I agree, it's difficult (and not my idea of personal responsibility) to tell others what to do, it need sto be from them I think....... we make choices and take responsibility for them

Ian x

----- Original Message -----

From: MICHAEL FORSYTH

To: bbgforum@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 8:29 PM

Subject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat

Hi all,

I was thinking about this today at work and I have to say I'm feeling all confused and at sixes and sevens about what to do. Like Sarah I've been a Veggie for the majority of my life and it was never a choice for me, just a relief that I didn't have to eat meat any more. But, Mike and the kids eat meat which I have to buy and cook and present in front of them. I don't cook meat for them every day, but it's probably 5 days a week. Do I now refuse to buy or prepare meat because this is what I want to do? Is it fair for me to force my opinions and beliefs on the other people I live with? That's not what Buddhism is all about and not what I'm about either.

I have decided to stop working at the farm as my part in the proceedings seems too close at the moment but I won't stop buying or preparing meat. I feel that a good compromise for me is to make sure I buy organic meat when I can and to think about what I'm cooking and the kids and Mike are eating - honouring the sentient being if you like rather than making it some invisible and anonymous hunk of food. I'm still uneasy about it but I'm not sure what else to do - and I want to do something.

X Sue

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#112 From: SARAH PATTON <house.mouse@...>
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 10:45 pm
Subject: Re: Instructions on not eating meat sarah1965patton
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A few weeks ago Cait read something to us which I said sounded to me like Roman Catholicism in it's tone of 'thou shalt not' and we all seemed to agree. Having reflected long and hard on this subject, I am coming to the conclusion that this feels the same to me. I reiterate my highly comfortable position where I don't actually have to give up anything, but if we were talking about other 'transgressions'.... I might be finding this a while lot more difficult.

I have 'pets' which eat other sentient beings - and they are fed to them live. My frog and mantids all eat live crickets. Is this wrong? It's what they would eat in the wild. I must say that I have recently made the decision, as the mantids die, to move over to phasmids, which are vegetarian but that is at least partly convenience! When I had a cat, she ate meat. I believe you cannot keep cats as vegetarians, although you can dogs? Any transgressions I made in caring for her were far outweighed by the mutual love and affection we had for one another. I cared for her as she was dying and she taught me about letting go. Amazing story - won't go into it here but it was incredible to me.

Also, in my work, I sometimes need to kill and set insects in order to identify them microscopically. This doesn't sit easy with me but, if rare species are to be found in order to protect areas and habitats (and therefore species), there is sometimes no other way. Am I making excuses to excuse what I do? Probably - I think that's human nature!

I have never tried to convert anyone to vegetarianism, and never would. It's a personal choice, like religion.

Someone raised the topic of fish. Something I have never understood is how someone who claims to be vegetarian can eat fish! Their choice, of course, but eating the flesh of any living creature cannot be called vegetarian! Otherwise I could be a teetotaller who only drank malt whisky!!

Love this discussion - it's really making me think.

Hope the weather doesn't turn out as bad as they are suggesting as it looks as though travelling could be a bit tricky tomorrow.

Love

Sarah

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#111 From: MICHAEL FORSYTH <michael.forsyth1@...>
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 6:57 pm
Subject: Re: Instructions on not eating meat s_frsyth
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But...

Don't I also have to honour the choices I made years ago when I decided to get married and have children? It would be easier for me to say 'I'm not serving you meat anymore because I'm right and you're all wrong' than it would to keep on buying and preparing and serving it as I really hate doing it. I've talked to Mike and the kids about vegetarianism and they have all chosen not to be vegetarians despite debates on the spiritual and physical benefits. Doesn't Buddhism teach us to question everything and find the right path? No two people will believe the same thing and no two people will walk the same path. Mike and the kids have a right to make their own choices just like I do. As they get older, the children can cook for themselves, but when Mike is working 16 hours a day it seem a bit unfair to sit back and eat my veggie lasagna while he goes out shopping and cooks his tea just because of what I believe. I have a big problem with dogma and all the bad stuff through history seems to have been started by people who believed they were right and the good stuff by people who weren't at all sure they were right.

I also have a big problem with not wanting to upset people and I'm delaying telling them at work that I'm packing it in because I know that not only will they be upset, but they'll ask me why I'm leaving and thus think I'm more of a hippy than before - I've even toyed with the idea of making up some plausible story to escape their ridicule. Sad eh?

A friend of mine was told that she would never be successful because she needed people to like her and so behaved in a way that encouraged this. I have to say she's one of the best people I know and samsara would be a much nicer place if it was full of people like her.

I also totally agree with you Cait.

X Sue

Cait Collins <cait@...> wrote:

i do like all this gentle not-imposing-my-views-on-others-it's-not-BC (buddhistically correct!) stuff! however i can't resist spicing the discussion up a bit!

i wonder if the following questions might apply here? should this admirable hands-off policy extend to letting someone walk into a trap they can't see and don't believe is there? or someone beat up another person? or steal someone else's property? or, in other words, from one aspect, should we take action to stop someone engaging in an action which may bring about an apparent short-term gain but which we believe is likely to lead to longer-term suffering? and then, from another aspect, should we take action to protect someone who is being exploited by another person - ie do whatever is necessary to stop the exploitation?

i think there is a danger in the extreme of moral absolutism, and also a danger in the extreme of moral relativism! let's hear it for a middle way! there's a case for standing up for principles, even if that may be rather an uncomfortable thing to do - it takes courage, and skill to do it effectively without just strengthening other people's opposition. and i also think it's important to examine our motivation for keeping quiet - i know in my own case it's often a wish not to upset people and incur their anger or give them reason to think poorly of me - i don't like people to think of me as an interfering old bat, or even worse a goodygoody twoshoes! and god forbid anyone should think me pious! so for me, my primary motivation for keeping quiet is usually less about respecting others' rights to do their own thing, and more about my own cowardice, mixed in with a bit of vanity.

actually, it's interesting to be writing and sending this message - a small and timid part of me is saying -'uh-oh, be careful, they won't like this...'!

with love

cait

----- Original Message -----

From: Ian Stuart

To: bbgforum@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:51 PM

Subject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat

Hi Sue

I agree, it's difficult (and not my idea of personal responsibility) to tell others what to do, it need sto be from them I think....... we make choices and take responsibility for them

Ian x

----- Original Message -----

From: MICHAEL FORSYTH

To: bbgforum@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 8:29 PM

Subject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat

Hi all,

I was thinking about this today at work and I have to say I'm feeling all confused and at sixes and sevens about what to do. Like Sarah I've been a Veggie for the majority of my life and it was never a choice for me, just a relief that I didn't have to eat meat any more. But, Mike and the kids eat meat which I have to buy and cook and present in front of them. I don't cook meat for them every day, but it's probably 5 days a week. Do I now refuse to buy or prepare meat because this is what I want to do? Is it fair for me to force my opinions and beliefs on the other people I live with? That's not what Buddhism is all about and not what I'm about either.

I have decided to stop working at the farm as my part in the proceedings seems too close at the moment but I won't stop buying or preparing meat. I feel that a good compromise for me is to make sure I buy organic meat when I can and to think about what I'm cooking and the kids and Mike are eating - honouring the sentient being if you like rather than making it some invisible and anonymous hunk of food. I'm still uneasy about it but I'm not sure what else to do - and I want to do something.

X Sue

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#110 From: "Cait Collins" <cait@...>
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 11:48 am
Subject: Re: Instructions on not eating meat cait@...
Send Email

i do like all this gentle not-imposing-my-views-on-others-it's-not-BC (buddhistically correct!) stuff! however i can't resist spicing the discussion up a bit!

i wonder if the following questions might apply here? should this admirable hands-off policy extend to letting someone walk into a trap they can't see and don't believe is there? or someone beat up another person? or steal someone else's property? or, in other words, from one aspect, should we take action to stop someone engaging in an action which may bring about an apparent short-term gain but which we believe is likely to lead to longer-term suffering? and then, from another aspect, should we take action to protect someone who is being exploited by another person - ie do whatever is necessary to stop the exploitation?

i think there is a danger in the extreme of moral absolutism, and also a danger in the extreme of moral relativism! let's hear it for a middle way! there's a case for standing up for principles, even if that may be rather an uncomfortable thing to do - it takes courage, and skill to do it effectively without just strengthening other people's opposition. and i also think it's important to examine our motivation for keeping quiet - i know in my own case it's often a wish not to upset people and incur their anger or give them reason to think poorly of me - i don't like people to think of me as an interfering old bat, or even worse a goodygoody twoshoes! and god forbid anyone should think me pious! so for me, my primary motivation for keeping quiet is usually less about respecting others' rights to do their own thing, and more about my own cowardice, mixed in with a bit of vanity.

actually, it's interesting to be writing and sending this message - a small and timid part of me is saying -'uh-oh, be careful, they won't like this...'!

with love

cait

----- Original Message -----

From: Ian Stuart

To: bbgforum@...

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:51 PM

Subject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat

Hi Sue

I agree, it's difficult (and not my idea of personal responsibility) to tell others what to do, it need sto be from them I think....... we make choices and take responsibility for them

Ian x

----- Original Message -----

From: MICHAEL FORSYTH

To: bbgforum@yahoogroups.co.uk

Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 8:29 PM

Subject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat

Hi all,

I was thinking about this today at work and I have to say I'm feeling all confused and at sixes and sevens about what to do. Like Sarah I've been a Veggie for the majority of my life and it was never a choice for me, just a relief that I didn't have to eat meat any more. But, Mike and the kids eat meat which I have to buy and cook and present in front of them. I don't cook meat for them every day, but it's probably 5 days a week. Do I now refuse to buy or prepare meat because this is what I want to do? Is it fair for me to force my opinions and beliefs on the other people I live with? That's not what Buddhism is all about and not what I'm about either.

I have decided to stop working at the farm as my part in the proceedings seems too close at the moment but I won't stop buying or preparing meat. I feel that a good compromise for me is to make sure I buy organic meat when I can and to think about what I'm cooking and the kids and Mike are eating - honouring the sentient being if you like rather than making it some invisible and anonymous hunk of food. I'm still uneasy about it but I'm not sure what else to do - and I want to do something.

X Sue

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#109 From: "Ian Stuart" <ian@...>
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 9:51 pm
Subject: Re: Instructions on not eating meat ianstusamsara7
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Hi Sue

I agree, it's difficult (and not my idea of personal responsibility) to tell others what to do, it need sto be from them I think....... we make choices and take responsibility for them

Ian x

----- Original Message -----

From: MICHAEL FORSYTH

To: bbgforum@...

Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 8:29 PM

Subject: Re: [bbgforum] Instructions on not eating meat

Hi all,

I was thinking about this today at work and I have to say I'm feeling all confused and at sixes and sevens about what to do. Like Sarah I've been a Veggie for the majority of my life and it was never a choice for me, just a relief that I didn't have to eat meat any more. But, Mike and the kids eat meat which I have to buy and cook and present in front of them. I don't cook meat for them every day, but it's probably 5 days a week. Do I now refuse to buy or prepare meat because this is what I want to do? Is it fair for me to force my opinions and beliefs on the other people I live with? That's not what Buddhism is all about and not what I'm about either.

I have decided to stop working at the farm as my part in the proceedings seems too close at the moment but I won't stop buying or preparing meat. I feel that a good compromise for me is to make sure I buy organic meat when I can and to think about what I'm cooking and the kids and Mike are eating - honouring the sentient being if you like rather than making it some invisible and anonymous hunk of food. I'm still uneasy about it but I'm not sure what else to do - and I want to do something.

X Sue

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#108 From: Rmrichardsonuk@...
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 5:54 am
Subject: Re: Instructions on not eating meat Rmrichardsonuk@...
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hi sue how about reducing the buying and cooking of meat by one day a week to start with and maybe after a few months maybe one of the family could buy and cook a simple meat dish once a week. Maybe for their cooperation you could do them an extra little favour so that it's a win win situation and who knows one or more family member may follow in your steps

don't worry about it, just do what you can comfortably

old habits and customs die hard

love

margaret

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#107 From: MICHAEL FORSYTH <michael.forsyth1@...>
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 8:29 pm
Subject: Re: Instructions on not eating meat s_frsyth
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Hi all,

I was thinking about this today at work and I have to say I'm feeling all confused and at sixes and sevens about what to do. Like Sarah I've been a Veggie for the majority of my life and it was never a choice for me, just a relief that I didn't have to eat meat any more. But, Mike and the kids eat meat which I have to buy and cook and present in front of them. I don't cook meat for them every day, but it's probably 5 days a week. Do I now refuse to buy or prepare meat because this is what I want to do? Is it fair for me to force my opinions and beliefs on the other people I live with? That's not what Buddhism is all about and not what I'm about either.

I have decided to stop working at the farm as my part in the proceedings seems too close at the moment but I won't stop buying or preparing meat. I feel that a good compromise for me is to make sure I buy organic meat when I can and to think about what I'm cooking and the kids and Mike are eating - honouring the sentient being if you like rather than making it some invisible and anonymous hunk of food. I'm still uneasy about it but I'm not sure what else to do - and I want to do something.

X Sue

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#106 From: Rmrichardsonuk@...
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 4:08 pm
Subject: Re: Instructions on not eating meat Rmrichardsonuk@...
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maybe jude does, it was her that sent the email and it was Rinpoche that translated the Karmapa's talk, so he couldn't have not had some reaction/response as a meat eater!!

if not i shall email margaret ford and ask her to ask him!

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#105 From: SARAH PATTON <house.mouse@...>
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 8:16 pm
Subject: Re: Instructions on not eating meat sarah1965patton
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Ah, but is that enjoy it MINDFULLY?

Does anyone know of Rinpoche's reaction to HH Karmapa's request?

Love

Sarah

Rmrichardsonuk@... wrote:

hi sarah, Rinpoche says enjoy samsara, we are in it for a long time

love

m

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#104 From: Rmrichardsonuk@...
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 3:11 pm
Subject: Re: Instructions on not eating meat Rmrichardsonuk@...
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hi sarah, Rinpoche says enjoy samsara, we are in it for a long time

love

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#103 From: SARAH PATTON <house.mouse@...>
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 6:41 pm
Subject: Instructions on not eating meat sarah1965patton
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Dear All,

How easy to sit back and take a 'holier-than-thou' stance!! Doesn't it just make you feel all smug and warm inside when something like this happens and you are a life-long veggie? Well, it did me. When this was mentioned at BBG, I thought 'phew! nothing for me to do then'.

I've been thinking a lot about the precepts lately and how easy it is to be happy to focus on the things you don't do and conveniently forget the others! And doesn't it just irritate when you consider giving up something you are still clinging to?

I wondered, although it seemed rather like prying, what other people tried to follow. I know many of the group are not vegetarian, but may well be old soaks and players :-)

I received one of Shenpen's emails recently (I've just looked for it but guess I deleted it cos I didn't like it!!) with a question about partying and enjoying oneself. The jist of her response was that these things are OK if continually mindful. It made me feel very inadaquate and sinful! Is it so bad to do things JUST because they are enjoyable and not manage to be mindful 100% of the time?

I don't drink alcohol much these days but have no intention of setting myself up to fail by saying that I'm going to give it up. Yes, there have been times when, in retrospect, I have used it unwisely, but I don't intend to go back there.

Maybe I will be stuck in samsara for a while yet.............never mind!

Love to you all

Sarah

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#102 From: Rmrichardsonuk@...
Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:53 pm
Subject: Re: Rmrichardsonuk@...
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an email from margaret ford, i have said that i am interested

love

margaret richardson

Dear Friends,
I have an idea that for now is just at the planning stage, but I would appreciate any input, questions, helpful advice, and names of people who would like to be involved.
I've an idea to start an email study group which would involve emailing to the group short teachings, or extracts from teachings, and inviting comments and thoughts and questions which we can share within the group. In the future this may also include making available recordings of teachings than can be downloaded. Rinpoche has given his blessing for this and may also help out now and again if we need clarification of complex points.

I will be happy to co-ordinate this, but would need help and support from at least one other person. So,if you would like to assist please contact me for more about how you can help. I will also create a new email group, just for the study group, so that I won't be bothering people on the main email list who would prefer to continue to receive information and requests for prayers etc but not the study material.

So, please mail me with any questions about this and send me your name and contact details if you wish to be included in the study group. This is open to Rinpoche's students and friends no matter where they live.

Love and best wishes,
Margaret Ford

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#101 From: "Ian Stuart" <ian@...>
Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:18 pm
Subject: Fw: Come with new life into the New Year. ianstusamsara7
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Hi all........

I expect I've already sent this to some.... but I can't remember who....!!

Fiona can you send this via the newsletter pls

with love Ian

----- Original Message -----

From: Mgtfrd@...

To: Mgtfrd@...

Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 7:48 PM

Subject: Come with new life into the New Year.

The following is translated from a New Year's Eve teaching given at
Tergar Monastery by HH 17th Gyalwa Karmapa

(compiled by Brady Hogan)

When I was little and living in the monastery, on New Year's eve I would
be anxious with anticipation waiting for the New Year to arrive. I could
barely sleep, perhaps because of the possibilities of new hopes and
aspirations. So for this New Year, I also have hope and aspiration. It's a
new hope with the coming of this New Year that I might be able to walk on
the same soil, the western continent-walk through the same landscape, and
open the door to this intimacy. That is my hope for the New Year.

Looking back at this past year, we can recall experiences that have been
painful and difficult. There are also joyful and happy experiences that we
can recall. Different experiences, be they difficult and challenging or
joyful and pleasant-they are landscapes, tapestries in our lives-something
to do with attributes, significance in our lives. It's important to recall
these joys and sorrows that have marked this last year. The point is, the
difficulties one has faced, painful experiences, shouldn't be left by
themselves, put aside, or ignored as too painful. The difficulties and
challenges should be attributes in molding and shaping the contours of
one's life and be put to meaningful use.

Personally, I have faced particular difficulties especially in the
years1999 and 2000 [his escape from Tibet], as many of you know. The
difficulties and challenges I have faced have become the adornments of my
life. Had I not, maybe I would be anonymous-but some kind of recognition
can be attributed to those times. Every difficulty can be embraced as a
blessing in disguise. They can adorn one's life. Beneficial results can be
found. What would be most preferable is to be able to use whatever
problems one has faced for greater development for the coming year. So
they become attributes, human dignity, repleteness, fullness-decorated by
being able to learn. That would be the most precious thing to do. If one
can't do that, then at least one must put aside, let go. Don't bring a
trail of baggage into the New Year. Come with new life into the New Year.

In 2006, I have come through many challenges, in particular having taken
up the responsibility of steering the Kagyu Monlam. It is quite a lot of
responsibility, difficulty and considerations. But this eve, all of those
challenges, however difficult have been worth it because they have been
done for your sake. So why get stuck with those? So I've left them behind.
Tonight I come to you crystal fresh. I hope that you too can come
fresh-decorate and dignify your human life and at least don't bring a
trail of baggage into the your present life. One needs room, so don't
bring a trail of baggage from the past. Say good-bye to last year.

So what we need to consider is that we don't view that "time" is
controlling us-that custom is controlling us. Time is not going to dictate
change or custom doesn't have control, but our willingness does. Feel
inspired, motivated to change. We use the occasion of New Year to
voluntarily serve as the vehicle of change. We can change anytime we want
because it's not dictated by time or custom. So the principle purpose of
Buddhism is to see our conditioned habitual view-fanatical fixation of
whatever view of reality that we are holding. The teachings of Buddhism
help us to undo those fixations. Help us to understand fixation,
rigidity-to not develop another view as we go further on the path-but
gradually going beyond any view whatsoever.

When we apply Dharma in our spiritual lives and everyday activities, our
attitude is free of extreme fixation. When we live our lives, face
challenges and difficulties, there is enough room for movement, for
activities to just occur. There's no need to be stuck, rather, beginning
to see room for hope, for possibility, for confidence.

So, on this very night it's important for us to know that we're not trying
to particularly promote this or that view. We already have enough
opinions. What we need is genuine experience of peace of mind, stability
of mind, development of depth of capacity for wisdom-not dependent on
counting how long one has done such and such, but on a daily basis looking
at what's going on in one's life. What outlook is one developing from day
to day, week to week, month to month.

We could use loving kindness, compassion-we can ask what further
enhancement have we been able to develop? What have we cultivated in our
daily life for that to occur? One needs two things:

             1) Proper guidance; and
             2) Examples of what is wholesome to adopt and what is
unwholesome to abandon-recognizing by oneself what is unwholesome and
giving it up and recognizing what to adopt. Self-help. Help yourself to
appreciate, help yourself to develop, not by being dependent upon another
to show you, but by embracing the guidelines that you need to follow. In
terms of self-help, what do we need to do? We feed ourselves three times a
day. Three times or not, we still have the notion to take care of the
body. There is this notion of "I" who owns the body. This lingering
experience-there is no fixed reference, not a reference to body or entity.
Yet there's some dependency, perhaps consciousness, mind, alertness that
we experience. If so, perhaps we need to help that, feed that three times
a day. Feed the mind in order to be strong, to be confident, to have a
mature mind, like mental vitamins.
To catch a physical cold is uncomfortable, but a mind-cold is even worse.
Maybe we should care for our mind more than our body.

In conclusion, I'd like to say that I've heard there are about 1,000 of
you from abroad. So to me you are like 1,000 Buddhas, 1,000 Bodhisattvas.
Actually, I don't know what a Buddha looks like, what Buddhas are supposed
to look like, but this time Buddhas have different shades of hair-blond,
black, brown-short ones, tall ones. I'm so amazed at all the variety of
ways that Buddhas can manifest.

That you've come here and sincerely participated in the Kagyu Monlam-I
feel strengthened by your presence. I feel invigorated, like I want to do
something. I must do more. So for this strength, I'd like to thank all of
you. Thank you.

It has been in the past that my activities are dependent on others, the
connection, the gathered strength of others. In the future also, the
strength, the gathering of others' inseparability, linked. And you're all
very important to me, a source of benefit to me, and maybe I'm a little
bit to you. This eve I extend full-hearted good wishes for your well being
and wishes that we stay connected in the coming years. If experience is
happy, we'll do it together. If experience is suffering, we'll do it
together.
With this I wish you the very best. Happy New Year.
                                                                     ~
H.H., the 17th Karmapa

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#100 From: "Pam Perry" <pam@...>
Date: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:54 am
Subject: Re: HH Karmapa pam@...
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Thank you Ian hope I got the right e-mail address re CAT Introd. Day at www.acat.me.uk/eventsandtraining.php

as I remembered you said you might be interested

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#99 From: "Ian Stuart" <ian@...>
Date: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:21 am
Subject: HH Karmapa ianstusamsara7
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Hi all

thought you may be interested......

with love Ian

The following is translated from a New Year's Eve teaching given at
Tergar Monastery by HH 17th Gyalwa Karmapa

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#98 From: "buddha_barrow" <Buddha_Barrow@...>
Date: Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:07 pm
Subject: All in a night's work buddha_barrow
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Hi All

Due to night shift commitments I'll be back on February 8th, 15th,
22nd; and March 1st.

I've managed to get annual leave for Rinpoche's visit at the end of
March to beginning of April.

See you in February.

Tim.

(8^D

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#97 From: simon ralfe <sralfe@...>
Date: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Subject: Gokarna sralfe
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Dear all,

We've been in India just over a week now . We flew into bombay, tired only to find our main luggage was still in Milan! Amazingly it appeared 2 days later , although we were starting to get used to travelling light. Its amazing what you don't need.

We set off to the coast asap as Bombay is not a great place to stay tyoo long. We got the train to Gokarna , south on the west coast. The train of course left from another station with an hour to go so we made it just in time , having a small adventure with local transport . The train journey was a good reintroduction to "real india" arriving in
gokarna in the early hours > gokarna is a Hindu pilgrimage site with beautiful beaches. It makes for a good place to stay a while.

Nadine unfortunately has a tummy bug today so I'm on call, but time is the best healer I expect. I hope shes better tomorrow.

Take care everyone, apologies for the group email, I wanted to stay in touch with as many people as possible.

All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine

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#96 From: "buddha_barrow" <Buddha_Barrow@...>
Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:43 pm
Subject: Tong Len buddha_barrow
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My Experiences of the Tong Len Practice

I practice Tong Len for around 5 minutes per day as part of a longer
45 � 50 minute practice. This longer practice involves setting up a
shrine, making offerings, setting motivation, prayers,
visualisations, mantras, analytical meditation, dedication, and long
life prayers.

I practice the Tong Len in its generic form most of the time, but
lately I have become more aware of the suffering I see around me.
This is where I work, see in town, what I read in the newspaper and
see on the television. So I may include people, mainly young, with
drug, alcohol, mental health problems, squalor, lack of direction,
unexpected pregnancy, and the impression of general suffering.
However, I also see peoples' lives turning round for the better so
that is included as well.

I visualise being surrounded by sentient beings in human form, as far
as I can imagine. The scene is usually at night but with a faint glow
coming from somewhere. The suffering arises as a black cloud which I
breathe in. At my heart, this blackness dissolves into white light
which I breathe out, and through the pores. This is sometimes
called `placing the two astride the breath'. All the beings absorb
this white light, either by breathing it in or through their skin
pores.

As the visualisation stabilises I imagine that all physical and
mental suffering gradually dissolves and a clearer, more joyful state
of mind arises in everyone. As the practice progresses, more subtle
states of clarity arise until all that remains is a last tiny speck,
like a tiny strand caught in a film projector. So minor irritations
are all that are left, until they dissolve.

Then, as everyone (including oneself) gets bathed in this white
light, a natural state of clarity, simplicity, and joy arises. I have
the confidence to create this light, to feel strong and empowered to
deal with suffering when I see it arise. It also works outside of
formal practice in everyday life.

So the Tong Len ends with this light which exists everywhere, and has
within it compassion, love, and a profound wisdom ~ Bodhicitta. It
becomes the standpoint from which all beings are perceived, and where
their capacity for Bodhicitta is awakened, creating a subtle state of
bliss.

I then visualise the four armed Avolokiteshvara above everyone and
slowly recite 21 Om Mani Peme Hungs. After this, I dissolve the
visualisation, and begin a more in depth meditation for around 25
minutes, or may extend the Tong Len into this time.

I then end the meditation with a Medicine Buddha visualisation,
mantra recitation, dedication, and long life prayers.

I have used the following sources:-

Geshe Rabten and Geshe Dhargyey, Advice from a Spiritual Friend, pp
56 to 61, Wisdom Publications, London, 1986.

Geshe Tashi Tsering, The Foundation of Buddhist Thought, Part 4 The
Mind of Enlightenment (Bodhicitta), Chapter 5. Jamyang Buddhist
Centre, London 2002.

Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen, Keys to Great Enlightenment, pp 153 to 160,
Thubten Dhargye Ling Publications, Los Angeles, USA, 1989.

Pabongka Rinpoche, Liberation In the Palm of Your Hand, pp 598 to
602, and pp 608 to 611. Wisdom Publications, Boston, Massachusetts,
USA, 1993.

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#95 From: "namkha108" <namkha108@...>
Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:04 pm
Subject: Act now to save Tibetans - PLEASE SIGN THIS PETITION namkha108
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Website link to International Campaign for Tibet, copy and paste to
your browser to read the full account by independant witnesses:
http://www.savetibet.org/action/item.php?id=11&ms=email

Dangerous Crossing
  On September 30, a group of over 70 Tibetans were attempting to
cross the Nangpa Pass into Nepal from Tibet when they were fired
upon by China's People's Armed Police. Eyewitness reports confirm
the death of Kelsang Namtso, a 17 year old Tibetan nun who was shot
in the back. Video footage of the shooting shows that at least two
other Tibetans were shot during the incident, but the injuries do
not appear to have been fatal.
See video of shooting at: http://www.protv.ro/filme/exclusive-
footage-of-chinese-soldiers-shooting-at-tibetan-pilgrims.html#4265

While 43 Tibetans from the group made it to Nepal, the whereabouts
of the others remains unknown, including at least 10 children aged 6
to 10 who were taken into custody at the site of the shooting by
Chinese police.

Teams of international climbers witnessed the incident, occurring
near Mount Cho Oyu on the Tibet-Nepal border. Photos and eyewitness
accounts confirm that at least three Tibetans were shot and an
unknown number taken into custody, including at least 10 children as
young as six.

One of the climbers, British police officer Steve Lawes, was among a
group of climbers and Sherpas at Cho Oyu's base camp who witnessed
both the shooting and the subsequent capture of the Tibetan children
who were marched into advance base camp by three soldiers with
assault rifles. Mr Lawes said: "The children were in single file,
about six feet away from me. They didn't see us - they weren't
looking around the way kids normally would, they were too
frightened. By that time, advance base camp was crawling with
soldiers. They had pretty much taken over, and the atmosphere was
very intimidating. We were doing our best not to do anything that
might spark off more violence."

China's False Claims

Last month, China's state-run Xinhua news agency reported that a
group of Tibetan "stowaways" ignored requests to turn around
and "attacked the soldiers", who were then "forced to defend
themselves". The statement also claimed that only one Tibetan died,
resulting from "altitude sickness."

JUDE ASKS:Please check out the International Campaign for Tibet
website and sign the petition, this could save lives now and prevent
the routine punishment and torture of these Tibetan prisoners
(including many children)in Chinese prisons.

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#94 From: "namkha108" <namkha108@...>
Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:08 pm
Subject: Tonglen and Mind Training site namkha108
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I pasted the link from another source, it doesnt have the www. so try:
http://www.lojongmindtraining.com
X Jude

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#93 From: Rmrichardsonuk@...
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:31 am
Subject: Re: Tonglen meditation Rmrichardsonuk@...
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Hi jude, many thanks for tonglen info, I can't access it I seem to need a yahoo identity and password which I again can't access, am I just dumb?

love

margaret

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#92 From: "namkha108" <namkha108@...>
Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:51 am
Subject: Tonglen meditation namkha108
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Following on from our Thursday discussion, I thought that the following
website would be worth you looking at, it gives a number of approaches
to Tonglen practice from a variety of teachers and traditions (Jamgon
Kongtrul, Pema Chodron, Dilgo Khyentse, Alan Wallace and others):
http://lojongmindtraining.com.
I have posted an extract of these and other instructions as a file
(click link on left panel as 'Tonglen Extracts').  I hope you will find
it useful, there is an approach to this practice for every one, some
very traditional, others more NLP.
Love Jude

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#87 From: "buddha_barrow" <Buddha_Barrow@...>
Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:27 am
Subject: Tong Len Practice buddha_barrow
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Hi All

After Thursday's discussion about difficulties with practice and the
exchanging self for others; within the Gelugpa Lam Rim teachings the
Tong Len is combined with another practice (seeing all beings as having
been one's mother), to form the Seven Point Cause and Effect practice.

The main aim is then to develop a special intention to benefit other
beings, and combines the generation of compassion with insight into
emptiness. It comes just after the beginning of the Great Scope part of
the Lam Rim, where freedom from Samsara is moved from self to others.

When I give my talk on the Lam Rim on Thursday 21st December, I hope to
include the Tong Len, and to put the practice into a wider context.

Tim
#8^D

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#83 From: simon ralfe <sralfe@...>
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 11:23 am
Subject: Practices at the moment of death. sralfe
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Hi everyone,

As promised here is the link to the practices for the moment of death, from Lama Yeshe's web site.

Best wishes

Simon

http://www.lamayeshe.com/lamazopa/advicebook/transitions/moment.shtml

All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine

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#67 From: "Cait Collins" <cait@...>
Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 7:53 am
Subject: Re: Songs of Milarepa cait@...
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hi steve et al
you might also like to try a newer translation of 2 volumes of mila's
songs - 'miraculous journey' and drinking the mountain stream' translated by
lama kunga rinpoche and brian cutillo.  garma c chang was an early pioneer
in translation and his versions, while poetic, have errors which the more
recent works have corrected.  (i say this with great authority as though i
know it for myself - i don't, of course - it's just what others have told
me!)

i hope you are all well and happy.  we had the first meeting of the somerset
bbg yesterday - it went very well - lots of enthusiasm and good will.  and
there was some nice synchronicity - a full moon, and people meeting for the
first time and finding all sorts of connections with each other etc - as the
tibetans would say, good ten-drel.

love
cait

love
cait


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Fenner" <trogman5@...>
To: <bbgforum@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 5:55 PM
Subject: [bbgforum] Songs of Milarepa


Hi Margaret

Many thanks for your message about the songs of Milarepa.

The book is entitled The Hundred Thousand Songs of Milarepa and is
translated and annotated by Garma C C Chang. I got the book via Amazon,
it is one of those strange stores where they purchase the book on your
behalf. It was relatively expensive at �24ish, but if I had to go
on 'Desert Island Book' I can assure you that this book would be my
choice. It is filled with 675 pages of inspiring, exciting, beautiful
and thoughtful words.

Steve






Yahoo! Groups Links

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#20 From: "Sarah Patton" <house.mouse@...>
Date: Sun Jun 4, 2006 8:18 am
Subject: RE: Re: Discussion Topic sarah1965patton
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Very interesting Sue, and I agree about taking the guilt of having an animal put down rather than watching them suffer, but in that role I see myself as a guardian rather than an equal…..if you see what I mean J

I have an Advanced Directive, or Living Will, which specifies my choices – I do not want any treatment to prolong my life if I am not going to recover. Personally, I don’t think I agree with taking a life (assisted suicide) BUT, until you’ve been there, you never know. My Dad was also on morphine and, although we knew what it would do, it wasn’t ever specifically highlighted by the hospice staff. I think we all accepted that they knew what they were doing and had the most incredible respect and love for him. He needed to be sedated because of the pain and increasing confusion but it still gave us the chance to be with him and share some very special moments. They also had a ‘do not resuscitate’ policy which they made clear when he was admitted.

Sarah

-----Original Message-----
From: bbgforum@... [mailto:bbgforum@...] On Behalf Of Michael Forsyth
Sent: 04 June 2006 07:29
To: bbgforum@...
Subject: [bbgforum] Re: Discussion Topic

Hi all,

It was very interesting reading what Sarah had to say and I feel exactly the same way about having animals put down... but I would still do and suffer the guilt rather than let them suffer.

And where does the use of Morphine fit in?

When Dad was dying last year we were offered Morphine on the understanding that it would shorten his life. He had been ill for 6 months and at that point he had no quality of life. He was blind, deaf, paralysed, confused, unable to eat and in pain. My sister was adamant that to shorten his life was wrong and so we didn't - after watching him suffer on and on until he finally died of pneumonia 2 weeks later, all I came away with was the question of motive. What were our motives in allowing him to struggle on and on? My sister insisted that there was always the hope that he would have one last lucid moment and at one point he whispered 'thank you lovely' to me. My sister leapt upon this a reason enough to go on but it just left me feeling cold - like he was a performing animal in a circus. I don't blame my sister because none of us knows how we will feel and for her it was the right thing. I'm just not sure it was right for Dad. Sitting with him at night after night and watching him struggle to breath through the fluid that was drowning him I wonder what I would have done if he had asked me to end his life...? I don't know.

I do know that everyone has a right to die peacefully and Dad died afraid and in pain.

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