Dear Alisdair

Not sure if I am about to help or hinder, but I think that the traditional story
regarding how Loughmoe was acquired by the Purcel's can be discounted. The story
sounds like a traditional story tellers attempt to explain the boars heads in
the Purcel arms, but as the name comes from the Norman French word that also
gave us 'Pork' and the boars heads are also in the arms of the members of the
Purcel family who stopped in England before some of them moved to Ireland it
obviously goes back to the original Norman family.

Loughmore in the literal sense of Large Loch also sounds like a corruption from
Loughmoe, there is no sign of a suitable large loch in the area, and if there
had been neither the originator of the traditional story or the local population
would have bought into the tale in the first place. In anycase apart from
Bunting the original Loughmoe form still seemed to be the standard form up to
and beyond the Griffiths Valuation of Ireland circa 1850.

Since the first Purcel associated with the place in the 14th century was granted
it by Ormond, then a search of the printed Calendar of Ormond Deeds for the
earliest forms of the name recorded there might be of some help

Keith





--- In clairseach@..., "Alasdair Codona" <calumcille@...> wrote:
>
> A chàirdean,
>
> Simon has alerted me to the Irish modern standard for Loughmoe/Loughmore,
which is Luachma which, purportedly, means 'price/reward-field' as per an old
story about the field being awarded as a gift to a Purcell.
>
> In Bunting MS29, Lagh Moor is the form given apparently from Hampsey's Irish.
This is most likely to be a representation of 'Loch Mór' rather than 'Luach
Magh'. It would seem to be a backformation from the English form 'Loughmore'.
We need to check up on the earliest record of the spelling 'Loughmore' with an R
to see if there are any earlier than MS29. If not, then it seems less likely
that Bunting and/or Hampsey were influenced by such a form in English.
>
> It might also just be that O'Hampsey said, 'Loch Ma' and that Bunting misheard
it as 'Loch Moor' through knowledge of the placename Loughmore in English.
However, 'Luach Magh' is grammatically incorrect and should be Luach Mhagh. Why
the modern standard is Luachma I don't know; it should be Luachmha if it means
'price-field'.
>
> Irish was still around in north Tipperary during O'Hampsey's lifetime and,
since the piece would have been well-known amongst his harping predecessors, it
would seem strange if they got the placename wrong. Perhaps he did. Perhaps he
didn't and Bunting did.
>
> I've done a quick online study and found that places named similarly are
mentioned in native Gaelic sources. Here are the quotes I've collected. I
would hazard that places using 'loch' in the texts are further north and that
the only 'luach' reference is the most likely to refer to Loughmoe.
>
> http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G100005A/text035.html
>
> ANNALS OF THE FOUR MASTERS
> M496.2 "Cath Droma Lochmaighe ria Laighnibh for Uibh Nell"
> The Battle of the Ridge of Lochmaighe - went with the Laighin over the Uí
Néill
>
> http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G800011A/text002.html
>
> BOOK OF LEINSTER
> 1874] "cath Lochmaige
> 1875] i torchair Lug Roith mac MaFemis"
>
> 1889] "Cath Lochmaige luad cen geis
> 1890] i torchair mac MaFemis.
> 1891] da mag déc derb lend uile
> 1892] ro sléchta con degduine."
>
> 1915] "Lochmag la Conailliu"
>
> 2055] "cath Lochmaige cen lemne
> 2056] and dorochair Degerne"
>
> According to Keating, 'la Conailliu' indicates that this is in the plains of
Louth.
>
> LEBOR GABÁLA ÉRENN
>
> line of verse:
> "Lochmag/Lochmagh, ní loch/loth nach labair/labhair/lobar/lobhar"
>
> Gloss 2351:
> "Cia atbearar Lochmagh firs. ni labartach a thonna".
>
> This is a nominative form and its components seems clear, ie, loch and magh.
It should therefore have an MH, which would make it refer to marshland. The
explanation is given here that the waves of this loch don't speak.
>
> COGADH FERGHUSA AGUS CHONCHUBAIR SONN
>
> "Lochmhagh"
> This is an edited form of the name from Patrick Brown's edition so the MH
isn't necessarily in the original texts. Patrick Brown states that this was
probably Loch Maghan in Co. Down. All the other lochs mentioned at that point
are apparently in Co. Down.
>
> http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G100005F/text010.html
>
> ANNALS OF THE FOUR MASTERS
> Annal M1598.35
> "Ticcherna Threna Cluana Meala, & Cathrach Dhúini Iasccaigh .i. Tomás mac
Tepóid mic Piarais, mic Emainn, & barún Luachmaighi, & drong mhór do ghillibh
ócca buitilerach do eirghe i c-comhmbáidh coccaidh na n-Gaoidhel."
> The Lord of Clonmel -Third and Cahir, ie, Thomas, son of Theobald, son of
Pierce, son of Edmond, and the Baron of Luachmaighi, and a large group of young
Butlers, joined in this war of the Irish.
>
> Luachmaighi is the old genitive. This old genitival form would be more
standardly spelled Luachmaighe. If the name is to mean
'value/price/reward-field', then there should normally be an MH even in the
genitive. The modern genitive should be Luachmha or maybe Luachmhaí in
accordance with the old texts. I notice that the Tipperary libraries concur
with the nominative 'Luach Mhagh' as does Joyce in 1800 with Luach-mhagh.
>
> 'Lúach' is a variant of 'lóch' (bright) so the name might mean 'bright plain'.
If so, it would still have been 'Lúachmhagh' in the nominative. However, it
never appears with an MH in any of the references except Patrick Brown and,
importantly, there's no MH in the reference which appears to relate to Loughmoe
(which is not called Loughvoe).
>
> By using Luachma, one follows the modern standard. How they can know that
it's 'luachma' and not the more obvious option 'luachmha' I don't know. English
M instead of V can't be relied upon in placenames; for example, Armagh is Ard
Mhacha and Moinmoy is Maonmhagh. On the other hand, I've never understood why
the modern Irish for Omagh is Ómaigh and not Ómhaigh. Can any Irish speakers
enlighten me about why this would justifiably be?
>
> In short, to accord with the traditional story and meaning and all the textual
evidence I've found so far, the Irish orthography of Loughmoe should be
Luachmha, meaning 'price-field'. Moe is an anglicisation of the dative or
genitive of 'magh'. There is no evidence that the last component is not 'magh',
a noun, therefore an MH is required when another word is prefixed.
>
> From all I know so far, Scott's Lamentation should apparently therefore be
titled 'Cumha Bharúin Luach Mha' or 'Cumha Bharún Luach Mhaí', the former being
closer to Bunting's transliteration. One wonders if it was also, mistakenly,
known amongst northern harpers as 'Cumha Bharúin Loch Mór' as well. This needs
following up.
>
> Beannachdan,
>
>
>
> Alasdair
>