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Football, fate, Gaia theory and socialism   Message List  
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Re: Football, fate, Gaia theory and socialism

[I'm replying to a previous message of mine (please scroll down if you've not read it) and a reply on a Manchester United forum. A minor correction: James not Richard Lovelock was responsible for Gaia theory.]

My conclusion about fate and people with good intentions winning was backed up on Thursday night in the final matches of the Scottish Premier League, with Celtic clinching the title. Celtic fans (and perhaps players) tend to be more left-wing and nicer people than Rangers fans (and perhaps players), due to the fact that historically Celtic was a Catholic team and Rangers Protestant - and there is still a large tendency for fans of those clubs to adhere to the appropriate religion.
 
Catholicisim is a more collectivist religion than Protestantism (which is the main religion of capitalism), and there has been a history of divide-and-rule by the British state, with Catholics discriminated against, in Northern Ireland. Indeed, some of the violent Rangers "fans" after their team's defeat to Zenit St Petersburg in the UEFA Cup final chanted "UVF" (as I heard on a TV report). The UVF, or Ulster Volunteer Force, are a loyalist (Protestant) paramilitary organisation, which, like the IRA, were responsible for the murder of many innocent people in "the troubles" in Northern Ireland.
 
I sent a message containing the following paragraph to various football-related forums, with the subject "I've changed my mind - I'm supporting Celtic to win the SPL tonight!",  just before the final SPL matches:
 
"I moved up to Glasgow from Manchester (where I supported FC United of Manchester and Manchester United) two years ago. I have generally supported Celtic rather than Rangers of the two main Glasgow clubs. However, I decided at the start of this season to support Rangers rather than Celtic for a change, to be anti-sectarian, except when they play Hibs (as the historically Catholic team in Edinburgh), Aberdeen (as my long-term favourite Scottish club), Inverness Caledonian Thistle (as a new club with a great name from a beautiful place) or a lower-league club in one of the cups. I like Ally McCoist and thought that Celtic continuing to win the SPL was getting a bit boring. Also, former fascist home secretary John Reid becoming Celtic chairman put me off continuing to support Celtic."
 
Somebody criticised me for saying that supporting a team because they are Catholic was anti-sectarian, which was a valid point but I didn't just want to support a historically Protestant team. It was a rather contradictory position to take (Rangers actually played Aberdeen in the final match, which they lost 2-0, and I couldn't have supported Aberdeen in the match at the same time as wanting Rangers to win the title), but it was a useful thing to say to those who would have been alienated if I had said I supported Rangers full stop.
 
Ben McManus replied to my "Football, fate, Gaia theory and socialism" message on a Manchester United discussion board, and gave me permission to post the following message in the debate (my reply to him) elsewhere:
 
Ben wrote:
"the first point i'd like to take issue with is a class based society. While as recently as the 1980's, there was a very obvious division between working class, middle class and 'upper' class, today's Britain is much less class oriented. I would go so far as to purport that we have an 'upper' class of super rich untouchables; and in contrast, an underclass that is below the poverty line and stuck in a vicious circle that keeps them stuck there. everyone else is, for want of a better terminology, 'middle class'."
 
I'm no longer a Marxist, but the Marxist idea of the ability of the working class to withdraw their labour and challenge big business for power still holds today. If there is a general strike, you can still bring down a government (as workers did in Bolivia in 2005, with union leader Evo Morales who led the strike movement getting over 50% of the vote in the subsequent Presidential election). Exactly where the boundary lies between working and middle class is highly debatable, but people who have to work for an employer for a living with the employer profitting from their work (except in the public sector although PFI/PPP is another way for big business to profit) are working class in my opinion.
 
I wrote:
"Man Utd defeating Chelsea in that match and the battle for the league title (on the final day of the season) was an indication that the forces of big business in the world weren't as strong as they could be, and they will get even weaker as a consequence of the results."
 
Ben replied:
"i can't understand where you've made that connection. Chelsea were 2nd in the league and runners-up in Europe, doesn't that indicate that their business model is working? to demonstrate my point, look at where Chelsea were pre-Abramovich... they were a cup team who would look for a top 6 finish in the league, generally a finish between 4th and 6th and a good run in the FA or League Cups would be an excellent season for the Blues. so on that alone, i think we can safely say that Abramovich's 'big business' style is indeed producing results, and Chelsea will again be a threat next season."
 
With the £500 million or so that Abramovich has forked out, coming second in both the league and Champions League is a bad result. "Average Grant" ,as Chelsea players have nicknamed him, may be for the chop, and whether he stays or goes Chelsea will have to fork out even more mney to try to compete. Many of Chelsea's better players will be highly tempted to leave. Whatever happens next season, it looks dismal for Chelsea - and political movements with capitalism in crisis internationally will add to their problems...
 
Ben said:
"You mention that Man Utd players have a better demeanour than their Chelsea counterparts. That argument strikes me as thoroughly benign as there are no controllable variables in the experiment. for instance, if you take the CL final.. of course the United players look happy, they just won the cup! you can't follow footballers around 24/7, so you can't provide any evidence that Man Utd players smile more than Chelsea players. Again, this removes from the equation any other extremely important variables such as love life, wages, morale at the club, training regimes, inter-personal relationships between players, even the players' personalities themselves."
 
I certainly saw Utd players smiling while practicing for the final, but perhaps that was influenced by just having won the league! I think I've noticed it generally, with Utd players enjoying football a lot more, reflected by scoring as lot more goals and playing much more attractive football than Chelsea. Alex seems to be smiling a lot more than Grant, and than he did a few years ago.
 
Ben wrote:
"the fact is, as Darwin proved, we are animals, just like well... the animals. Morality is not a set of laws or principles, not a good versus bad issue as you suggest; morality is a feeling. it is a feeling of compassion for the suffering of others made possible by the fact that individuals are figments."
 
I'm not an expert on philosophy, but I cannot see how morality can be defined in such a way that good versus bad is not involved. I have my own moral ideas, and I know that many others do too. I reject George W Bush's ideas of "the axis of evil", and recognise that in his government's support for dictators such as the Saudi royal family he is a hypocrite (and Bush wasn't elected in 2000 or 2004 - see my US Electoral Fraud group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/us-electoral-fraud for details - so him arguing about bringing democracy around the world makes him hypocritical there too).
 
Ben wrote:
'I also think you've misinterpreted Gaia Theory in much the same light. you write, and i quote: "Richard Lovelock's Gaia theory, which encompasses everybody's free will and ensures that things work out". This is not the case. Gaia Theory is the theory that the Earth is a self-regulating system which behaves in some ways like an organism, he uses the example of Daisyland, which you probably know, so i won't go into it. My point is that there is no human element to it, the theory refers to the Earth as an organism, not to humanity.'
 
I've read some of Lovelock's first book on Gaia theory "Gaia: a new look at life on Earth" and "Revenge of Gaia" (in which he seemed to reject the basis of idea by saying that global warming could be disastrous) but I'm not an expert on his ideas and I'm unsure to what extent I agree with him. Humans are part of the "self-regulating system" or "super-organism" composed of all life on the Earth and inanimate objects. My hypothesis is that our free will, and indeed the free will of animals (if they have any which I think they do), is part of that super-organism and our minds co-operate together to ensure that humanity and other life on the Earth survives.
 
I'm more influenced by Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, in which I first came across the term Gaia (as a planet with telepathic aliens who are both individuals and part of the collective whole) in "Foundation's Edge" and "Foundation and Earth", than Lovelock. That series ended (sorry for spoiling the ending if you want to read them!) with that planet's system replicated throughout the galaxy - called "Galaxia". I suspect that the universe (or perhaps just the galaxy) in which we live actually operates like Galaxia! If it was just the world rather than the universe that was self-regulating, then things like comets, meteorites and eclipses (or even just stars in the sky) could interact with us in such a way that things wouldn't work out.
 
Ben wrote:
"now i understand from your post that you are a socialist, and judging by the implications made throughout, i would say you were influenced by Marx. (in fact i've just read through again and you more or less mention this yourself). The biggest problem i have with Marx is that his work is severely dated. Putting it in context, Marx was writing when capitalism as we know it today wasn't even conceived of. He was on the edge of the dawn of capitalism, we are in the midst of it. I'm not saying based on that, that we should dismiss Marx's work, but rather, we should be careful when we look to 'initiate the revoltion' based on ideas that are null and void in a modern context. (mostly because, as i said earlier, the class system that existed in Marx's day no longer exists now)"
 
Yes, I'm influenced by Marx and was a member of a Marxist (and Trotskyist) organisation from 1990-98 - the Militant Tendency (becoming Militant Labour when it left the Labour Party and now the Socialist Party of England and Wales). It was Militant leading the mass non-payment campaign that defeated the poll tax and brought down Margaret Thatcher, and proving itself serious by defending people who refused to pay, which convinced me to join - if it can lead that, it can lead a revolution, I thought. I left when it failed to support the setting up of the Scottish Socialist Party, and I wanted to reveal infiltration by hostile conspiratorial organisations like MI5 (which I did indeed do).
 
Incidentally, Andy Walsh, the founder of the Independent Manchester United Supporters Association (IMUSA), who also played a leading role in the Not for Sale Coalition against Glazer's takeover of the club (having helped the successful campaign against Sky/Murdoch's earlier takeover attempt), was also a member of Militant and went to jail for not paying his poll tax.
 
Marx got some things wrong, like the tendency for the rate of profit to fall, which he thought would lead to the inevitable collapse of capitalism. The role of advertising and loyalty to brand names, which weren't big factors in his day, means that many big companies enjoy huge profits. I see things happening much more through electoral politics, and splits in parties like Labour and the Scottish National Party helping bring about socialism, although strikes still have an important role. As I said in my previous message, I am in favour of a socialist society with a government elected by proportional representation by single transferable vote, with the middle class in power as well as the working class, whereas Marxists want just the working class in power, so I am deviating quite a lot from Marxism.
 
[rest of message snipped]
 
----- Original Message ----
From: Steve Wallis <revolutionarysocialiststeve@...>
Subject: Football, fate, Gaia theory and socialism

In ITV news coverage of the Champions League final last night, in which Manchester United defeated Chelsea on penalties, suggested that it was fate that Man Utd would win 50 years after the Munich air disaster which killed many of the "Busby babes". It was also 40 years after first winning the trophy (then called the European Cup).
 
Tiny differences, like Chelsea hitting the post and crossbar and John Terry slipping as he hit the ball for a penalty that would have won them the match, can have a big effect on the result of a match - and that can have a big effect on the morale of many millions of football fans around the world, especially when a prestigious trophy is at stake. The morale of the players and manager, and the fans who are cheering the team on, can affect how well the team play.
 
There can be political influences and repercussions, since some teams (like Man Utd) are mainly supported by working class fans and others (like Chelsea) by more middle and ruling class fans. Man Utd fans and players also tend to be more left-wing (partly because the team play in socialist red) than Chelsea fans (whose team play in Tory blue). Chelsea owner and Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich has forked out far more on players than any other team in the world, so Chelsea are the main team of big business. Man Utd defeating Chelsea in that match and the battle for the league title (on the final day of the season) was an indication that the forces of big business in the world weren't as strong as they could be, and they will get even weaker as a consequence of the results.
 
Of course, Man Utd are a rich team too - in terms of revenues and money available to  buy players and pay their wages, although they are over £700 million in debt after US businessman Malcolm Glazer's takeover of the club. I opposed the takeover at the time, and supported the efforts of other United fans opposed to the takeover who set up a new club - FC United of Manchester. However, the consequences for both clubs (until the debt has to be repaid of course) has actually proved very good, in terms of money available in the short term for Man Utd players and FC United winning promotion in amateur leagues in each of the three seasons it has existed (clinching promotion on the final day this season). I now regard FC United as my favourite team, but have continued to support Man Utd as well.
 
Bearing in mind the money involved at Man Utd, describing that club as socialist or left-wing is inaccurate to say the least! It is perhaps better to analyse it in terms of a good versus bad struggle, as I outline in my Good Intentions Manifesto (at www.goodintentionsnetwork.org/manifesto.html, although I am currently rewriting it to reflect my realisation that the class struggle is paramount).
 
Within every struggle in society, including that required to win a football match in addition to the class struggle, debates within and between political parties and campaigns on political issues, etc., there is a struggle between those who primarily have good intentions (and care about others) and those with primarily bad intentions (being selfish). I think everybody has a mixture of good and bad intentions - if you don't take care of yourself to some extent, you wouldn't be very effective at helping others, and if you don't care at all about anybody else, you would find it very difficult to get by in the world.
 
How good or bad somebody is tends to be reflected in his or her demeanour; do you smile (as Man Utd players tend to do more often than Chelsea ones) or are you as dour and miserable as Chelsea manager Avram Grant - or British Prime Minister Gordon Brown? Man Utd manager Sir Alex Ferguson went through a phase of being miserable and arguably greedy/selfish (in relation to stud receipts from the racehorse he was given by former club shareholders), but he has proved much better at recruiting good players recently (particularly last summer where all new additions have made positive contributions to this season's successes), and he comes across as a much happier person. If you are good, and show it in your demeanour and actions, you are more likely to associate with other good people and/or help people you associate with nicer people.
 
There is a genetic basis for this good versus bad analysis of mine, with many animal species being caring and cooperative as well as selfish. There is even evidence of animal morality, as referred to in the current issue of New Scientist (quoting an article from 13 July 2002 (p 34):
 
"A classic study in 1964 found that hungry rhesus monkeys would not take food they had been offered if doing so meant that another monkey received an electric shock. The same is true of rats. Does this indicate nascent morality? For decades, we've preferred to find alternative explanations, but recently ethologist Marc Bekoff from the University of Colorado at Boulder has championed the view that humans are not the only moral species. He argues that morality is common in social mammals, and that during play they learn the rights and wrongs of social interaction, the 'moral norms that can then be extended to other situations such as sharing food, defending resources, grooming and giving care'."
 
Returning to the issue of fate, and the fact that a football result can have a big impact: I have long realised that the world is largely planned rather than random - there are big vested interests in some things happening, so if events can be modelled (in human minds or on computers) they will be, and I have noticed too many "coincidences" in things that have happened. I regard myself as an agnostic - I've veered towards believing in God, but (perhaps largely due to subscribing to New Scientist) now veer towards atheism. There does, however, seem to be some sort of collective consciousness in the world (and perhaps the universe) much as explained by Richard Lovelock's Gaia theory, which encompasses everybody's free will and ensures that things work out, even with respect to football matches!
 
I have often felt, rightly or wrongly, that it has been vital for me to do certain things to prevent a dictatorial capitalist society like the one predicted by George Orwell in "Nineteen Eighty-Four" from coming about. Arguably Russia already has that sort of society - Putin decided upon Medvedev as his successor as President, the Russian media gave him far more coverage than any other candidate, and (according to the BBC at least) there was no doubt that Medvedev would be elected, which he was; if you don't produce a passport or ID card when stopped by the police on the street, you can be arrested. If the whole world was like Russia, and New Labour are trying to take the UK in that direction, there would be no prospect of revolutionary change, but interactions with ordinary people (including football fans) across the world can bring about real democracy there and internationally.
 
I am now much more relaxed about prospects for the future, and the football results mentioned above reinforce my view that others would do what is necessary to yield a much more ethical world even if I dropped out of political activism (which I don't intend to do). However, there is still a lot at stake - many more people could suffer or die in the meantime (especially with rapidly increasing food prices never mind the terrible situation in Burma), and the sort of ethical societies that we will have in the world can be affected by everyone's free will. I am in favour of a form of socialism where the government is elected by proportional representation by single transferable vote, with the middle class in power as well as the working class (whereas Marxists want just the working class in power). [I do agree with Marxists on some degree of workers' control of industry, if it's not too hierarchical.] I am also in favour of a varied world, with different forms of society in different countries (whereas Marxists believe the whole world has to become socialist).
 
Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander's support for a referendum on independence would seem to make a capitalist independent Scotland likely in 2010, especially if (as is very likely) the Tories win the next UK general election earlier that year. The Scottish National Party (SNP) would surely split (since it will have achieved its primary aim) with socialists and capitalists going their separate ways, with socialists currently in the Labour Party and socialist parties to the left of Labour joining socialists from the SNP, in time for the next Scottish parliamentary elections in 2011. Of course, big problems with the capitalist world economy could provoke massive revolutionary movements before then, but a socialist Scotland in 2011 certainly looks feasible.
 
--
Steve Wallis (Glasgow, Scotland)
For important/urgent communications, please email:
warcrysteve@...
 
My socialist website: http://www.socialiststeve.me.uk
My socialist musical poetry: http://www.socialiststeve.me.uk/poetry.htm
(and at my MySpace and Multiply pages)
My pages at MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/galaxiasteve, Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=731729407 and Multiply:
http://socialiststeve.multiply.com
 
Founder, Good Intentions Network: http://www.goodintentionsnetwork.org 
Founder, Ethical Capitalism Network: http://www.ethicalcapitalism.net
Founder, Foundation for PR-based Socialism: http://www.PRsocialism.org
Founder, Revolutionary Platform Network: http://www.revolutionaryplatform.net
 
My socialist band, Red Day: http://www.red-day.net
Author, "Revolution Destroyed? Have I ensured that a world socialist
revolution will never happen?": http://www.revolutiondestroyed.net
 
For discussion of the credit crunch, go to
http://www.revolutionaryplatform.net/forum/index.php?board=156


Sun May 25, 2008 2:28 pm

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In ITV news coverage of the Champions League final last night, in which Manchester United defeated Chelsea on penalties, suggested that it was fate that Man...
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May 22, 2008
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[I'm replying to a previous message of mine (please scroll down if you've not read it) and a reply on a Manchester United forum. A minor correction: James not...
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