Chemistry, physics, botany, medicine, archeology, tanatology,
photography, coin collecting, Biblical exegesis, the science of
textiles, the history of art, microscopic observation, space science
and modern computers continue stubbornly to try to answer the
fascinating question: who is the man of the Shroud? An incredible
series of coincidences between the Shroud Image and the Evangelical
Figure of the Man of Sorrows, crucified in Jerusalem when Pontius
Pilate was public prosecutor makes it certain that the Sheet kept in
Turin is that which wrapped the Body of Christ.
In fact nowadays when we are so preoccupied with images, highly
sophisticated scientific research and electronic computers, so far
from the Faith of simple people, have penetrated the Mystery of the
Shroud Imprint to the point of making us say: the Shroud is not a
work of man nor of physical causes known to man. We owe them our
gratitude for this Message to an inattentive and disappointed mankind
that only in Christ can the Eternal live and not the transient.
Thirty Flashes on Web Site:
http://digilander.iol.it/crescinidue
Mail: flashesgospels@...
Read with interest the article and the information on the web site.
Personally i doubt very much whether it is the real shroud, but
nevertheless i appreciate your conclusions.
All i will say is that it is better to understand the Jesus of the
Bible than a cloth in Turin.
It's all a matter of focus, and where we keep our attention.
Ballymoney Mitchelburne Apprentice Boys of Derry Website has been
updated - as well as more new photos, Nokia Loyal Ringtones have been
added - there has also been a little facelift with a navigation bar
to help get round the various pages on the site. Please have a look
and sign our guestbook to show your support.
http://www.geocities.com/mitchelburnebm/
No Surrender!
Chemistry, physics, botany, medicine, archeology, tanatology,
photography, coin collecting, Biblical exegesis, the science of
textiles, the history of art, microscopic observation, space science
and modern computers continue stubbornly to try to answer the
fascinating question: who is the man of the Shroud? An incredible
series of coincidences between the Shroud Image and the Evangelical
Figure of the Man of Sorrows, crucified in Jerusalem when Pontius
Pilate was public prosecutor makes it certain that the Sheet kept in
Turin is that which wrapped the Body of Christ.
In fact nowadays when we are so preoccupied with images, highly
sophisticated scientific research and electronic computers, so far
from the Faith of simple people, have penetrated the Mystery of the
Shroud Imprint to the point of making us say: the Shroud is not a
work of man nor of physical causes known to man. We owe them our
gratitude for this Message to an inattentive and disappointed mankind
that only in Christ can the Eternal live and not the transient.
Thirty Flashes on Web Site:
http://digilander.iol.it/crescinidue
Tell me eventual impressions of yours on E-Mail:
flashesgospels@...
Alan,
has the format been changed in the forum. Thereonly seems to be 4
messages now. Hurry up and put the new essays on! I have editted out
the rubbish so you should be able to put them straight on more or
less.
Brian
Well Spotted, when it was upgraded to a group it somehow lost the
other messages!!
The Essays will be on this weekend, probably sunday and mighty fine
they are looking to!!
Hope all is well.
Cheers
Alan
n reformeddoctrineforum@y..., "bmidmore" <brmidmore@h...> wrote:
> Alan,
> has the format been changed in the forum. Thereonly seems to be 4
> messages now. Hurry up and put the new essays on! I have editted
out
> the rubbish so you should be able to put them straight on more or
> less.
> Brian
God is more glorified when we praise Him for His acts of mercy. Mercy
is an attribute of God easily overlooked, especially if we think that
salvation is our choice not God's premeditated action. We can think
that we cause God to act and not God through His mercy. A.W. Tozer
in "The knowledge of the Holy" writes:
"Nothing that has occurred or will occur in heaven or earth or hell
can change the tender mercies of our God. Forever His mercy stands, a
boundless, overwhelming immensity of divine pity and compassion. As
judgement is God's justice confronting moral inequity, so mercy is
the goodness of God confronting human suffering and guilt. Were there
no guilt in the world, no pain and no tears, God would yet be
infinitely merciful; but His mercy might well be hidden in His heart,
unknown to the created universe. No voice would be raised to
celebrate the mercy of which none felt the need. It is human misery
and sin that call forth the divine mercy."
We might ask why did God allow sin to enter the world? One reply to
that would be for Him to demonstrate his attributes to creation which
otherwise might have remained hidden!! The price God had to pay for
this was the life of His son, but the reward was eternal glory.
First of all I would like to say that the Orange Order is a
Protestant Organisation which although having a strong membership in
Northern Ireland and other countries of the United Kingdom is not a
Northern Irish or indeed an exclusively British organisation. The
Orange Institution is in fact a worldwide organisation which defends
and maintains the Protestant religion. The Orange Order has Grand
Lodges (National Governing Bodies) established in Ireland, England,
Scotland, USA, Canada, Togo, Australia, New Zealand, and Ghana -
that's four continents! As well as these established areas growth in
recent years has resulted in areas previously without an Orange
prescence having Lodges formed - such as Poland. There are also
interested parties in joining the Orange Institution or those who are
already members in other countries forming new Lodges spreading the
Orange even further and defending our religion.
Countries which had Lodges but due to revolution, terrorism, conflict
or oppression were put out of existance have expressed new interest
in restoring Orangeism - such as South Africa where the Aparteid
system persecuted Orangeism because it had members who were from a
variety of ethnic backgrounds, Nigeria where there are members who
have to hide there membership because of the Islamic government
(Nigeria was the first country in West Africa to have Orange lodges
and infact exported Orangeism to Togo and Ghana).
If you want to join the Orange Order regardless of where you are
located, ethnic background or sex - you just need to be a Protestant,
then go to this link and fill in the online application form
http://www.orangenet.org/members/
If anyone is Interested, The below website has an interesting FORUM
with many contributors. Some of there ideas are interesting if you
want to broaden your Christian scope.
http://www.5solas.org/main.php
Some of there theology ins't mainstrem so handle with care.i.e some
real Preterism views !!!
Anyway, it would be interesting to know what people think of it. If
you have a view let us know.
Cheers
alan
Hi
Christian Success is a difficult thing to measure. To many Christians
it can mean many different concepts or things. I believe that in the
whole most Christians have been sold short on what living a fulfilled
life is.
Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself in the LORD; and He will give you the desires of
your heart.
Surely one of the Bibles, greatest promises, But what are the desires
of our hearts.
Pascal a 16th Century philosopher said,
"All men seek happiness," says Blaise Pascal. "This is without
exception. Whatever different means they employ, they all tend to
this end. The cause of some going to war, and of others avoiding it,
is the same desire in both, attended with different views. The will
never takes the least step but to this object. This is the motive of
every action of every man, even of those who hang themselves."
At the heart of every man lies the desire to be happy. So man will
take the best route to happiness he can find. This critically is the
area in which the 'faith' preachers have sold Christians short.
People have picked up on a message of prosperity, wealth & health and
have sort after these things (albeit with good intentions) and have
missed the real focus of our lives God.
So are our desires wrong, C S Lewis said
'If we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering
nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our
Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-
hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when
infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on
making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by
the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.'
(C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory and Other Addresses)
Here we have it spelt out, we are far too easily pleased. It not that
our desires are wrong, it's that they are not strong enough.
The 'faith' generation has sold its desires short, with half-hearted
promises of a temporal nature, when God offers us all his riches.
Look at Moses in Hebrews 11
24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the
son of Pharaoh's daughter,
25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than
to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures
in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
Like Moses we look to the reward of Christ not to earthly riches.
There is only one place to find true happiness, which is in God,
through Christ. Health, Wealth & prosperity are temporal thing that
will fade away, but Christ offers us all that he is in him.
But the really telling part of this is not only does this focus on
temporal things rob us of real happiness, it also robs us of the joy
of having a satisfied and healthy soul.
'The Worth and Excellency of a soul is to be measured by the object
of its love'. Henry Scougal - Life of God (1651 - 1678)
wherever, we focus the desire and object of our hearts becomes a
reflection of our inner man. Temporal things create a temporal worth,
but eternal things creates an everlasting, eternal joy and hope.
If the 'faith' generation and preachers have sold us short, the most
telling place is in the Excellency of our soul.
George Muller said this:
The point is this: I saw more clearly than ever, that the first great
and primary business to which I ought to attend every day was, to
have my soul happy in the Lord. The first thing to be concerned about
was not, how much I might serve the Lord, how I might glorify the
Lord; but how I might get my soul into a happy state, and how my
inner man might be nourished. For I might seek to set the truth
before the unconverted, I might seek to benefit believers, I might
seek to relieve the distressed, I might in other ways seek to behave
myself as it becomes a child of God in this world; and yet, not being
happy in the Lord, and not being nourished and strengthened in my
inner man day by day, all this might not be attended to in a right
spirit (Autobiography of George Mueller, compiled by Fred Bergen,
[London: J. Nisbet Co., 1906], pp. 152-154].
God wants us to be happy, he wants us to be fulfilled and joyful, but
this must come from having a desire to have all that we can in HIM.
A total reliance in Him, that must be our desire
Cheers
Going back to Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones In Romans :
I Quote: -
The Law was never given in order to save us. "The Law was given
through Moses, to give us 'the knowledge of sin.' Not to deliver us
from sin, but to give us the knowledge of its terrible character,"
In other words, the whole function of the Law is to define sin, to
reveal its nature; and that is why we are without any excuse at all.
The law is in our hearts; but that is not clear enough, so God made
it explicit. He had defined it, He has underlined it, He has shown it
plainly in the written Law give to the Jews.
. . . The Law was given to pinpoint sin, to define it, to bring it
out of its hiding-place and to show its exceeding sinful
character. . . Nothing so shows the exceeding sinfulness of sin as
the Law itself does; and once a man has seen the real meaning of the
Law he sees the foulness, the vileness of his own nature.
. . . The Law was never given to save man, but it was given as
a "school-master" to bring him to the Savior. The whole object and
purpose of the Law is to show man that he can never save himself.
Once he has understood the Law and its spiritual meaning and content
he knows that he cannot keep it. He is undone. . . What is the
summary of the Law? It is: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all
thy heart, and all thy soul, and all thy mind, and all thy strength;
and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Has anyone done that
and so kept the Law? No, "All have sinned and come short of the glory
of God." That is what the Law says. It shows us our utter
helplessness and hopelessness, and thereby it becomes "our
schoolmaster to lead us to Christ," the only One Who by the grace of
God can save us, and deliver us, and reconcile us to God, and make us
safe for all eternity. Paul glories in the Gospel which proclaims
that "the just shall live by faith," because "by the deeds of the law
shall no flesh be justified in His sight, because by the law is the
knowledge of sin"
(Romans Exposition Chapters 3:20-4:24, pp 21-22).
I hope this helps?
Cheers
I just joined this group a few days ago and was wondering if any one
here could answer a question for me.
Can any one here tell me what theonomy is and is it biblical. I
belong to another group where they have been having a lot of debates
on this topic but to be honest, most of it is way over my head.
I am new to a lot of things concerning the reformed faith and have
joined other groups such as this so I can learn more, but most of the
time it gets way too heavy and confusing.
Also, can any one tell me any thing about the steelite Covenanters? I
think I spelled that right. Another group I am in has a lot of those
in them. I have never heard of that untill recently and some one told
me that they were a sect or even a cult. Not sure what to think of
them except the few I have chatted with seemed like decent God
fearing people who have a deep compassion and Love for Christ and His
Truth.
Thanks for reading this. Sorry if I ramble too much.
Grace & peace
tom
Hi tom
As far as i can gather a theonomists is a christian who believes that the
whole moral law of the Old Testament, including it punishments should be
appiled to a christain society. Therefore childern who repeatedly diobey
parents should executed, and there should be death penalty for adultery,
homsexuality etc. It was first practiced by John Calvin in Geneva in the 16
C. Is it Biblical? It is not easy to say, but do we really want to go down
that path, especially in our more liberal era? The realtionship of the
Christian to the law is a tricky one. We are told that the law would be
written on our hearts but do we really want start stoning people again. I
suppose that the possibility that theonomists would ever get their way is
remote so it remains a rather acedemic idea. Remember Jesus response to the
adultress, he pinpointed her sin but in effect said you cannot stone her
because you are sinful too. Paul aslo remind us that it is the state that
punishes evil doers. Maybe this helps?
Brian
>From: "repentant_reformer" <repentant_reformer@...>
>Reply-To: reformeddoctrineforum@...
>To: reformeddoctrineforum@...
>Subject: [Reformed Doctrine Forum] Hello
>Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 05:23:30 -0000
>
>I just joined this group a few days ago and was wondering if any one
>here could answer a question for me.
>Can any one here tell me what theonomy is and is it biblical. I
>belong to another group where they have been having a lot of debates
>on this topic but to be honest, most of it is way over my head.
>I am new to a lot of things concerning the reformed faith and have
>joined other groups such as this so I can learn more, but most of the
>time it gets way too heavy and confusing.
>Also, can any one tell me any thing about the steelite Covenanters? I
>think I spelled that right. Another group I am in has a lot of those
>in them. I have never heard of that untill recently and some one told
>me that they were a sect or even a cult. Not sure what to think of
>them except the few I have chatted with seemed like decent God
>fearing people who have a deep compassion and Love for Christ and His
>Truth.
>Thanks for reading this. Sorry if I ramble too much.
>
>
>Grace & peace
>
>
>tom
>
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Hi,
I was just wondering what you all thought of the 'Steelite' Covenanters and
whether they are or should be considered a cult or not.
Had a few friends that are in that group, but to be honest, I am not sure what
to think. I know that they believe that they have the only true forum of worship
and have even gone so far as to say that those who do not practice E.P
(Exclusive Psalmody) are idolaters and not true Christians. Does any one in here
know any thing about that? Just trying to sort through it all.
Thanks & God bless.
tom
---------------------------------
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HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi tom,
This is surely heretical nonesense! They that worship God must do so in
Spirit and truth! The jews said that you could only only worship in
Jerusalem but Jesus clearly refuted this (see John 4). To tell you the truth
I wouldn't touch this group with a barge pole! They are preaching another
gospel, not the gospel of grace but one of law. According to them you need
to worship in the right way to be saved, but the gospel says 'believe that
God raised Jesus from the dead, and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and
you will be saved' (Rom 10 v?)
Brian
>From: tom mitchell <repentant_reformer@...>
>Reply-To: reformeddoctrineforum@...
>To: reformeddoctrineforum@...
>Subject: [Reformed Doctrine Forum] the Steelite controversy
>Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:01:18 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>Hi,
>
>I was just wondering what you all thought of the 'Steelite' Covenanters and
>whether they are or should be considered a cult or not.
>
>Had a few friends that are in that group, but to be honest, I am not sure
>what to think. I know that they believe that they have the only true forum
>of worship and have even gone so far as to say that those who do not
>practice E.P (Exclusive Psalmody) are idolaters and not true Christians.
>Does any one in here know any thing about that? Just trying to sort through
>it all.
>
>Thanks & God bless.
>
>
>
>
>
>tom
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do You Yahoo!?
>HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
This was taken from thecalvinlivesclub@yahoogroups.com
I wanted to post it here to show what the 'Steelite' Covenanters believe. God
bless.
tom
A Steelite said this:
No one is claiming that any small pocket of Covenanters is the ONE TRUE
CHURCH…Others have made clear the distinctions we make in previous posts --
distinction between the essence of a church and the well-being of a church.
We do not doubt that even the Roman Catholic Church is a "true church." They
have the Bible, they have the Sacraments, they have a form of Church
Government/Discipline -- and as defective as their doctrines and as idolatrous
as their worship is, yet we do not totally exclude them from being among "all
those throughout the world that profess the true religion, and of their
children"(WCF XXV:2), though they have buried that true religion deep under the
rubble of their hay, wood, and stubble.
Sounds good, doesn’t it? No claim to be the one True church, for after all, EVEN
the Roman Catholic Church is a "true church." Until you check the
"qualifications" of what that means.
Steelites believe that along with the Roman Catholic Church, ALL OTHER churches
are corrupt churches that practice idolatrous worship and therefore should be
separated from for the "purest church presently on earth." And which church
(although not perfect) is the "purest church presently on earth?" One guess now.
Bingo! You got it right—it’s none other than the Steelite Covenanter Church.
So the next time a Steelite tells you, "No one is claiming that any small pocket
of Covenanters is the ONE TRUE CHURCH." Remember that "the devil is in the
details" and that such claims by Steelites have a "thousand qualifications." For
in their view, all other churches are guilty of idolatry in one form or another.
So the issue is not whether non-Steelite churches are idolatrous or not, it’s
just a question of how idolatrous. But in any event, the Steelite church is the
"purest of all churches" and thus the only truly Reformed church presently on
earth. Thus the truly Reformed and the truly faithful must forsake their
idolatry and their idolatrous churches and join the "purest church on earth."
But when they do that, they must always remember, "No one is claiming that any
small pocket of Covenanters is the ONE TRUE CHURCH."
CL
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here is another article from calvinlives I thought was interesting.
Grace & Peace. tom
CL note: Below what follows you will see the relevant quotes from Steelites. I
cite them as the basis for what I am about to say. I urge the reader to read
through them.
Some Steelites in a recent disussion (and they are the only ones I am dealing
with here) have made the point that they are NOT the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and that
non-Steelites who engage in idolatrous acts by singing other than the Psalter,
etc. are not idolaters.
According to them, that should be the end of it. No more needs to be said or
should be said. So when someone like me comes along and points out that while
such claims may be "technically" true, it is in fact nothing more than
"double-speak," well then I can only be a trouble-maker determined to cause
dissension among the brethren.
But you see I’m thickheaded Irish/Italian who has never been bothered by those
kind of accusations when truth is an issue. And that’s what I think is at stake
here. Let the cards be put on the table, let’s be done with the "pious
platitudes," the self-righteous claims of being persecuted, misunderstood,
misrepresented, falsely accused, etc., etc, etc. and tell it like it really is!
And although much more could be cited, I believe that the evidence cited below
is more than sufficient to prove what I am claiming.
The point that I have made before, and make now again, is that while Steelites
do claim that they are not THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH, they also claim that they are
presently "the purest church on earth." All other churches and denominations are
corrupt and if they do not sing the Psalms exclusively their members are
committing "idolatrous acts." The faithful should therefore forsake these
corrupt and idolatrous churches (including other Reformed and Covenanter
denominations) and are morally bound to join "the purest church presently on
earth," which are the Steelite churches. How do we know this? Because if the
Steelite churches are not presently the "purest churches on earth," then the
Steelites would be morally bound to join those churches and recommend them
exclusively! True, there is not total unanimity among Steelites on every issue,
but on the present view of the state of the church they agree. Do Steelites
recommend non-Steelite churches? Ask them as I have and you will find out that
they don’t.
To date, NO ONE has challenged the accuracy of the above. They have spent much
time telling me how "mean-spirited" I am, but I have yet to see them dispute the
basic facts as I have listed them here.
So yes, Steelites say that they do not claim to be THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH, and
that is true, they don’t. But take a close look at what has just been pointed
out, and you make up your own mind if that claim is nothing more than a
"smokescreen" on a practical level. The only church any of us should be in is
"the purest church presently on earth." And according to Steelites, the only
church that presently fits that bill is the Steelite church.
Secondly, Steelites claim that they do not hold that non-Steelites are
idolaters. But they do believe that to engage in the singing of anything but the
Psalms in worship or the use of musical instruments in worship are idolatrous
acts and is idolatry. What does that mean then? It means that according to
"Steelite logic," those who commit idolatry by engaging in acts that Steelites
deem to be idolatrous are nevertheless NOT idolaters. One Steelite even went so
far as to say that he didn’t even consider that Aaron was an idolater when he
made the golden calf for Israel to worship, so how could he consider non-Psalm
singers to be idolaters? May I suggest that is more a demonstration of faulty
logic than it is a proof that either Aaron or non-Psalm singers are not
idolaters?
The performance of an idolatrous act is idolatry, and those who commit idolatry
are idolaters. Therefore, according to Steelites, the singing of other than
Psalms or the use of musical instruments in worship are idolatrous acts and is
idolatry, and those who do idolatrous acts are idolaters by definition.
Steelites not only need to be honest with themselves, but with those whom they
accuse. It may not win them friends, but it will be more honest and it will end
their charade.
CL
STEELITE QUOTATIONS:
CL note: Instead of using their real names, I refer to them as Steelite
Conventer (1-4) or as (SC). All of these are taken either from comments made by
each of them in Groups or from documents that they referred to in those
comments.
The First Steelite Covenanter said:
"Let it be known that I do NOT believe, as has been alleged by some,
that my small group of like-minded believers is the only True Church
of Jesus Christ. Nor do I hold all "non-Covenanters" as being idolaters.I NEVER
made that allegation."
The Second Steelite Covenanter said:
I would simply point out, The PCA practices Idolatrous worship, by
incorporating things that the LORD has not commanded as elements of His public
worship.
A dear brother in Christ...who was once a member of the PCA, has written a
short book entitled, "WHY THE PCA IS NOT A DULY CONSTITUTED CHURCH and Why
Faithful Christians Should Separate From This Corrupt "Communion" It can be
found free at: http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualnls/PCAbad.htm
(The Most Faithful Church] We do see that Christ commands
that the Church is to be ONE and UNIFIED, and that unity is to be
based on a Faithful Testimony of the True Religion. Since all other
bodies have fallen short of that faithfulness, we must remain
separate from all other denominations and distinct.
The First Steelite Covenanter said:
[Quoting another] "I do not want to see any brethren no matter the
denomination..to go away from this club offended."
Then I certainly wouldn't recommend the title "Why the PCA is an
Unduly Constituted Church and why Faithful Christians Should Flee
from this Corrupted 'Communion'" as someones first exposure to the
issue of lawful separation from churches!
I know that this document was not writted to "win friends and
influence people," and it certainly has alot of great quotes in it by
some heavy-weight Reformers, and I'm sure that the guys to whom Mr.
Birger wrote this may have required this kind of lashing, but how
well do you think it did with [names two non-Steelites].
The Third Steelite Covenanter said:
Hi CL,
Here are the answers you asked for:
CL: For clarification then: any church that does not sing the Psalms of
the Lord Exclusively, or allows ceremonial components of worship
i.e., musical instruments, or allows women's heads to be uncovered is
unfaithful to God? That's your position?
A: YES, it is DE-formed. In regard to Exclusive Psalmody and Musical
Instruments (which the Lord has not commanded), they are commiting the sin of
Idolatry, as you are dear friend, with them. The headcovering issue, is a
modesty and moral sign issue. I cannot comment at the moment, until I finish
some recently received commentary.
CL:Are such churches "duly constituted churches," or are
they "corrupted" so that "faithful Christians" should withdraw
from them?
A: YES, they are churches in being that have separated themselves from the
teaching of Scripture.
CL: And I take it, given your position, that your church in
Pottstown is a "duly constituted, uncorrupted, and faithful
church" so that those who would withdraw from the "corrupted churches" could and
should join yours?
A: I am not a "member," but a semi-regular attendee (still learning)with my
family. I am praying about where the Lord would have me and my family to attend.
We drive usually 270-300 miles each Lord's Day to worship faithfully, which is
difficult, but the fellowship is quite edifying.
Hope that helps you, CL.
Third Steelite Covenanter again on this:
[Question asked of him] For clarification then: any church that does not sing
the Psalms of the Lord Exclusively, or allows ceremonial components of worship
i.e., musical instruments...is unfaithful to God? That's your position?
A: YES, it is DE-formed. In regard to Exclusive Psalmody and Musical
Instruments (which the Lord has not commanded), they are commiting
the sin of Idolatry, as you are dear friend, with them.
[Question asked of First Steelite Covenanter about 3SC statement just noted]
You either agree with that answer or you don't. Which is it?
First Steelite Covenanter answers:
I don't see how what 3SC here states is in any disagreement with the
qualifications I've made explaining our position.
The First Steelite Covenanters’ stated "qualificatiions:"
I am saying,
1) I agree...that things not prescribed by God are not to be admitted at
elements of worship.
2) I agree...that admitting this as elements of worship which God did not
Himself prescribe is, in a broad sense, idolatry.
3) I believe that God prescribed Book of Psalms, and no other hymn
book, to be used in the ordinary worship of God.
4) I believe therefore that worshipping God with hymns other than the
ones God Himself prescribed and provided for the ordinary worship of
God (the Psalms) is, in a broad sense, a form of idolatry.
5) But I do NOT automatically consider all hymn-singers to be
idolaters any more than I would sum up Aaron (God's High Priest) as
being an idolater (and Aaron committed a far more gross and explicit
form of idolatry).
6) I hold a distinction between those who sit in the pews doing what
their Pastors and Elders are teaching them to do, and those Pastors
and Elders who ought to know better than to lead the sheep in those
directions contrary to, in addition to, or in subtraction from, the
Word of God.
Fourth Steelite Covenanter said:
"A Testimony Against Prominent Errors of Our Times," pp. 23, 25; I strongly
encourage all readers to examine carefully this succinct but devastating work.
Its method of critique applies well (obviously, with certain modifications) to
other so-called Reformed denominations, like the O.P.C. and the R.P.C.N.A.,
enabling one to conclude that these, as well, are constitutionally unsound and
have abandoned (and are even fighting against) many important truths once held
valiantly by our forefathers in the faith (and thus should themselves, as
denominations, be abandoned; Particularly sad is the case of the R.P.C.N.A., who
claim the title 'Covenanter', but who seem to have little or no idea of what
that title originally entailed practically and doctrinally.
---------------------------------
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Church Leadership Integrity
Food for Thought
Most of us have had good, bad or indifferent experiences of
Church 'Christain' Leadership. On thinking about these things, the
questions arises, How do we know when we are being treated fairly and
with integrity? Paul says, "Have this attitude in yourselves which
was also in Christ Jesus (Philippians 2:5)." But what is the attitude
of heart that we should seek?
Chuck Swindoll gives some good principles of what we should beware of
and recognise in the attitude of our leaders. That is evidence of the
wrong attitude.
Beware of :
Authoritarianism or the lack of a servant's heart. This occurs when
the leadership has gone wild with a tyrannical, oppressive prideful
attitude. Don't suppress God's people. Respect them and encourage
them to be all God wants them to be. Don't abuse God's people. Christ
is Lord... not the pastor or anyone else in God's church.
Exclusiveness or the "I (or we) alone are all right" syndrome. "Only
we have the truth, or the best program." It constantly stresses the
idea that we are the only people God uses. No one else is as good,
doctrinally correct, blessed of God, filled with the Spirit, etc. God
has blessed me, or our group as the elite Christians. The emphasis is
on our distinctiveness, denominational pride, selective doctrine, a
special revelation or anointing from God, etc. The leader promotes a
clannish, cultic following, clicks, etc. The truth is in God's grace
there are no favorites. God does not play favorites with anyone. We
are saved by grace alone. There are no second-class citizens in the
Kingdom of God.
Greed or the money crazy theme. How much do you harp on money? What
is your motive? Even building yourself a name for a church with a big
budget falls prey to this abuse. As a pastor I don't handle money.
Let someone else do it. The church assigns a group of people to count
the money, the treasurer writes the checks and an audit committee
checks the books. Don't even find out who gives the most or how
frequently they give in your church. How do you handle money that
people hand to you and say use it were the greatest need is? Do you
continue asking for money after you know you have all the funds you
need for a certain project?
Rationalization or the the effort to justify wrong with a defensive
spirit. Are you quick to gloss over personal sin, make excuses or lie
about it? Are you over emphasizing or underemphasizing some area of
purity? What areas and why?
Unaccountability or the idea that I answer only to God and no one
else. As a pastor and a member of my church I am always accountable
to someone. I am accountable to the deacons, the deacons are
accountable to the church, and the church is accountable to one
another. Beware of the secretive, "I am accountable only to God and I
answer to no one else." No one is above accountability. Receive the
confrontation of friends and mentors and remind yourself that only
observed behavior changes.
So there is an insight in things to beware of. The list is good to
put in your Bible to remind yourself when it is time to leave.
Remember when spiritual abuse takes place in any congregation it is
time to go. No one should ever be spiritually abused.
So what is the right attitude?
The apostle in Philippians 2:5-11 is stressing the remedy to
spiritual abuse. His emphasis is on the character of God that is seen
in selfless service and obedience to Christ and others. Jesus Christ
is our perfect example of obedient service. His attitude runs counter
to the human tendency to dominate and control others for personal
gain. "Think in this way," Paul says, "just as Jesus Christ thought
in this way." That is the best safeguard we can have in the way we
handle life. Follow the example of Christ's selflessness, humility
and obedience. On various occasions Paul has used Christ's behavior
as an example for believers' lifestyle (Rom. 15:3-9; 2 Cor. 8:9; Eph.
5:1-2; Col. 3:3ff; 1 Tim. 6:13-16). Paul normally puts the emphasis
on living the Christian life in the believer's union with Christ and
the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 6:1-14; 1 Cor.6:11-20; Col.
3:1-4; Rom. 8:1-17; Gal. 2:16-20; 5:16-26). Here he tells us to
imitate the model of Christ.
Christians' knowledge of divine things is more then knowledge of biblical words
and theological ideas. It is the understanding of the reality and relevance of
the works of God testified to by Scripture.
The "natural man" (1 Cor. 2:14) who does not have the Spirit, even though
familiar with Christian ideas, still lacks this deeper understanding, because it
is an understanding given by they Holy Spirit (Col. 1:9; cf. Luke 24:25; 1 John
5:20) Those who along with correct instruction from scriptures, "have an
anointing from the Holy One. . .know all things" (1 John 2:20)
The work of the Spirit in imparting this understanding is called "illumination",
or enlightning. It is not giving of new revelation, but a work with in us to
grasp and to affrim the revelation of the Bible, as it is read, preached, and
taught. Sin clouds our minds and wills so that we miss and resist the force of
Scripture. The Spirit however, opens and unveils and attunes our hearts so that
we underrstand what God has revealed (2 Cor. 3:14-16; 4:6; Eph.1:17,18;
3:18,19). Illumination is the application of God's reavealed truth to our
hearts, so that we grasp as reality for ourselves what the sacred text says.
Protestant theologians shortly after the Reformation spoke of illumniation as an
act of grace that proceeds in two stages. The first stage of illumination takes
place when one encounters the ministry of the Word. This external illumination
prepares the person for the second stage, the internal ministry of the Holy
Spirit that leads to Salvation.
The Spirit speaks through the law, that convicts a person of sin, and the
gospel, that conveys knowledge of God's grace and forgiveness (cf. Luke 1:79).
It is through this illumination of the Spirit that the ministry of the Word
conveys the effectual calling to Salvation.
Although illumination by the Spirit begins the process, or order, of Salvation
(Heb. 6:4; 10;32), it continues throughout the life of the believer. The Holy
Spirit leads us to deeper understanding of God (John 16:13), prompting both
repentance for the sins we commit and assurance of God's grace and the certanity
of our election. We recieve this illumination through the ministry of the Word
and through prayer, meditation on God and His revelation, and the struggle to
live our lives in a manner consistent with revelation.
Reformation Study Bible. Pg 1801
---------------------------------
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Hi tom,
Do you have any scriptural backup to confirm your idea that:
'The work of the Spirit in imparting this understanding is called
"illumination", or enlightning. It is not giving of new revelation, but a
work with in us to grasp and to affrim the revelation of the Bible, as it is
read, preached, and taught.'? In acts for example the Spirit is strongly
portrayed as 'the spirit of prophecy' as promised by Joel. Joel promises
that your sons and daughters would prophecy, to Joel this must have meant
fresh revelation and not merely illumination of the word. This is proved by
the rest of Acts. In order to explian this some have invoked the idea that
after the canon of Scripture was closed then this type of prophecy stopped.
But Peter refers to the latter days that are characterised by prophecy. Are
we to assume a second eschatological event called 'the closing of the canon
of scripture' which somehow stopped the prophecy poured out at pentecost?
Are we living in the latter latter days?
Brian
>From: tom mitchell <repentant_reformer@...>
>Reply-To: reformeddoctrineforum@...
>To: reformeddoctrineforum@...
>Subject: [Reformed Doctrine Forum] Illumination and conviction
>Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 21:48:00 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>Christians' knowledge of divine things is more then knowledge of biblical
>words and theological ideas. It is the understanding of the reality and
>relevance of the works of God testified to by Scripture.
>
>The "natural man" (1 Cor. 2:14) who does not have the Spirit, even though
>familiar with Christian ideas, still lacks this deeper understanding,
>because it is an understanding given by they Holy Spirit (Col. 1:9; cf.
>Luke 24:25; 1 John 5:20) Those who along with correct instruction from
>scriptures, "have an anointing from the Holy One. . .know all things" (1
>John 2:20)
>
>The work of the Spirit in imparting this understanding is called
>"illumination", or enlightning. It is not giving of new revelation, but a
>work with in us to grasp and to affrim the revelation of the Bible, as it
>is read, preached, and taught. Sin clouds our minds and wills so that we
>miss and resist the force of Scripture. The Spirit however, opens and
>unveils and attunes our hearts so that we underrstand what God has revealed
>(2 Cor. 3:14-16; 4:6; Eph.1:17,18; 3:18,19). Illumination is the
>application of God's reavealed truth to our hearts, so that we grasp as
>reality for ourselves what the sacred text says.
>
>Protestant theologians shortly after the Reformation spoke of illumniation
>as an act of grace that proceeds in two stages. The first stage of
>illumination takes place when one encounters the ministry of the Word. This
>external illumination prepares the person for the second stage, the
>internal ministry of the Holy Spirit that leads to Salvation.
>
>The Spirit speaks through the law, that convicts a person of sin, and the
>gospel, that conveys knowledge of God's grace and forgiveness (cf. Luke
>1:79). It is through this illumination of the Spirit that the ministry of
>the Word conveys the effectual calling to Salvation.
>
>Although illumination by the Spirit begins the process, or order, of
>Salvation (Heb. 6:4; 10;32), it continues throughout the life of the
>believer. The Holy Spirit leads us to deeper understanding of God (John
>16:13), prompting both repentance for the sins we commit and assurance of
>God's grace and the certanity of our election. We recieve this illumination
>through the ministry of the Word and through prayer, meditation on God and
>His revelation, and the struggle to live our lives in a manner consistent
>with revelation.
>
>
>
>Reformation Study Bible. Pg 1801
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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>Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Hi
Last Sunday, in Church, I listen to a very Challenging sermon, by an
NfI leader Ray Lowe. The essence was a question, are our Church and
our lives `Rich in Mercy'?
Some of the following is directly from the sermon; some of it is from
me, having time to think.
In the book What's So Amazing About Grace?, Philip Yancey relates the
following true story
'A prostitute came to me in wretched straits, homeless, sick, unable
to buy food for her two-year-old daughter. Through sobs and tears,
she told me she had been renting out her daughter – two years old! –
to men interested in kinky sex. She made more renting out her
daughter for an hour than she could earn on her own in a night. I
could hardly bear hearing her sordid story. For one thing, it made me
legally liable – I'm required to report cases of child abuse. I had
no idea what to say to this woman. At last I asked if she had ever
thought of going to a church for help. I will never forget the look
of pure, naïve shock that crossed her face. "Church!" she cried. "Why
would I ever go there? I was already feeling terrible about myself.
They'd just make me feel worse."
What struck me about my friend's story is that women much like this
prostitute fled toward Jesus, not away from him. The worse a person
felt about herself, the more likely she saw Jesus as a refuge. Has
the church lost that gift? Evidently the down-and-out, who flocked to
Jesus when he lived on earth, no longer feel welcome among his
followers. What has happened?'
It means we have to ask some real questions about Church.
How do the streets of our town think about our church?
Are we known as a place where people are welcome?
Do we make sinners feel loved?
Jesus embodied grace, mercy and love. The people of the day called
Him "a friend of sinners." What does it mean to "make the teaching
about God attractive"?
In Titus we are to teach people to live lives in "accord with sound
doctrine". It outlines some of the attitudes and behaviours that are
consistent with sound doctrine. Love as the ultimate expression of
God's grace has a significant role in our attitudes and behaviours.
We demonstrate that God is gracious to us and we in turn are becoming
more like Him every day. When people see this transformation taking
place in us, our lives become attractive. In order for us to make the
gospel attractive to others we need to understand a few foundational
principles.
1) . We must come to grips with the fact that we are sinners. There
is nothing so abhorrent to the unsaved as to see Christians who think
they are better than others. "All have sinned and fall short of the
glory of God." The Apostle John says "If we claim to be without sin,
we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)
2). God's grace has saved us through faith. As Christians, when we
ask God to forgive us, He does. In Hebrews we are reminded that God
does not remember our sins or lawless acts when He has forgiven us.
(Hebrews 10:17). Grace needs to be our first response to those
negative situations in life. When we live in God's Grace, we make the
gospel and doctrine of God attractive.
3). Christians can love the sinner and hate the sin. C.S. Lewis
confessed that he had a hard time understanding this idea—until he
realized that that is exactly what God did with him everyday.
4). The practice of grace works best in a fully functioning community
of believers. We are "not to give up meeting together…but let us
encourage one another." (Hebrews 10:25). To do this means that we
encourage each other starting right where we are. Paul goes on to
write that we are to "carry each other's burdens, and in this way you
will fulfill the law of Christ," (Gal. 6:2
But what is it to Live a life of Mercy?
Warren Wiersbe in Live Like a King! (pp. 105-06) asked "What does it
mean to obtain mercy?"
'By extending mercy, we open our hearts to receive mercy; and having
received, we can share again and again.
The Christian is surrounded by mercy. When he looks back, he can
say, "Surely goodness, and mercy have followed me all the days of my
life" (Psalm 23:6). When he looks ahead, he remembers the words of
Jude 21--"Looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal
life." As he begins each new day, he can say; "It is of the Lord's
mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness" (Lamentations
3:22-23).
. . . God responds to us on the basis of the heart. "With the
merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou
wilt shew thyself upright; with the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure;
and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward" (Psalm 18:25-
26). . . . When once we begin to cultivate one of the spiritual
graces, God always provides more. When we show mercy, He gives mercy;
and thus, we have more mercy to show.
When a Christian shows mercy, he experiences liberation. He is set
free from grudges that drain the strength and unsettle the mind. . .
The most miserable prison in the world is the prison we make for
ourselves when we refuse to show mercy. Our thoughts become shackled,
our emotions are chained, the will is almost paralyzed. But when we
show mercy, all of these bonds are broken, and we enter into a joyful
liberty that frees us to share God's love with others. This blessing
of freedom is one way that we receive mercy as we show mercy. It is a
blessed by-product of obeying God.
. . . How thrilling to go through life sharing God's mercy and not
having to judge people to see if they are "worthy" of what we have to
offer. We stop looking at the externals and begin to see people
through the merciful eyes of Christ. Every Christian we meet is a
person in whom Jesus lives; every lost soul we meet is a person for
whom Jesus died. In both cases, we have candidates for God's mercy.'
Surely, as a Church and people of Christ we need to be centres of
mercy. People who come through our doors need to know that
forgiveness, mercy and love will be the greeting they receive.
Instead of building big churchs, with lots of money, we need to focus
on the reality that the world needs a people who care and will love
them but hate their sin.
A few years ago, i watched a pastor put a burgular alarm on his
pentecostal church, it struck me that, here was the church actually
trying to keep sinners out. To protect our assets is one thing, but
what is the message we are giving to the world.
I think we sometimes lose the reality that, we are saved by grace and
if it was not for God's mercy we to would be condemed with the rest.
How much more love and grace should we show?
It certainly has challenged me.
Cheers
Yes Alan!
I have been thinking about, Jer 23.11 recently: 'both the prophet and priest
are profane'. We could use this as a general attack on the church but
equally we could see that overall nobody is any good in the church compared
to the holiness of God, and that ultimately mercy is more imporatant than
holiness, see Matt 12.16-17. It is all too easy to become temple oriented:
'we need to keep the temple pure, safe and holy'. This was true too in
Jeremiah's day ( see Jer 7.4f). The prophet says stop oppressing the
innocent!! But the same fate occurred to both temples, they were destroyed.
Equally today God will not hold back his judgement on those who maintain the
security of holiness over mercy for those who are lost.
Brain.
>From: alan1704 <no_reply@...>
>Reply-To: reformeddoctrineforum@...
>To: reformeddoctrineforum@...
>Subject: [Reformed Doctrine Forum] Rich in Mercy
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:33:44 -0000
>
>Hi
>
>Last Sunday, in Church, I listen to a very Challenging sermon, by an
>NfI leader Ray Lowe. The essence was a question, are our Church and
>our lives `Rich in Mercy'?
>Some of the following is directly from the sermon; some of it is from
>me, having time to think.
>
>
>In the book What's So Amazing About Grace?, Philip Yancey relates the
>following true story
>'A prostitute came to me in wretched straits, homeless, sick, unable
>to buy food for her two-year-old daughter. Through sobs and tears,
>she told me she had been renting out her daughter – two years old! –
>to men interested in kinky sex. She made more renting out her
>daughter for an hour than she could earn on her own in a night. I
>could hardly bear hearing her sordid story. For one thing, it made me
>legally liable – I'm required to report cases of child abuse. I had
>no idea what to say to this woman. At last I asked if she had ever
>thought of going to a church for help. I will never forget the look
>of pure, naïve shock that crossed her face. "Church!" she cried. "Why
>would I ever go there? I was already feeling terrible about myself.
>They'd just make me feel worse."
>What struck me about my friend's story is that women much like this
>prostitute fled toward Jesus, not away from him. The worse a person
>felt about herself, the more likely she saw Jesus as a refuge. Has
>the church lost that gift? Evidently the down-and-out, who flocked to
>Jesus when he lived on earth, no longer feel welcome among his
>followers. What has happened?'
>
>It means we have to ask some real questions about Church.
>
>How do the streets of our town think about our church?
>Are we known as a place where people are welcome?
>Do we make sinners feel loved?
>Jesus embodied grace, mercy and love. The people of the day called
>Him "a friend of sinners." What does it mean to "make the teaching
>about God attractive"?
>
>In Titus we are to teach people to live lives in "accord with sound
>doctrine". It outlines some of the attitudes and behaviours that are
>consistent with sound doctrine. Love as the ultimate expression of
>God's grace has a significant role in our attitudes and behaviours.
>
>We demonstrate that God is gracious to us and we in turn are becoming
>more like Him every day. When people see this transformation taking
>place in us, our lives become attractive. In order for us to make the
>gospel attractive to others we need to understand a few foundational
>principles.
>
>1) . We must come to grips with the fact that we are sinners. There
>is nothing so abhorrent to the unsaved as to see Christians who think
>they are better than others. "All have sinned and fall short of the
>glory of God." The Apostle John says "If we claim to be without sin,
>we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)
>2). God's grace has saved us through faith. As Christians, when we
>ask God to forgive us, He does. In Hebrews we are reminded that God
>does not remember our sins or lawless acts when He has forgiven us.
>(Hebrews 10:17). Grace needs to be our first response to those
>negative situations in life. When we live in God's Grace, we make the
>gospel and doctrine of God attractive.
>3). Christians can love the sinner and hate the sin. C.S. Lewis
>confessed that he had a hard time understanding this idea—until he
>realized that that is exactly what God did with him everyday.
>4). The practice of grace works best in a fully functioning community
>of believers. We are "not to give up meeting together…but let us
>encourage one another." (Hebrews 10:25). To do this means that we
>encourage each other starting right where we are. Paul goes on to
>write that we are to "carry each other's burdens, and in this way you
>will fulfill the law of Christ," (Gal. 6:2
>
>But what is it to Live a life of Mercy?
>
>Warren Wiersbe in Live Like a King! (pp. 105-06) asked "What does it
>mean to obtain mercy?"
>
>'By extending mercy, we open our hearts to receive mercy; and having
>received, we can share again and again.
>The Christian is surrounded by mercy. When he looks back, he can
>say, "Surely goodness, and mercy have followed me all the days of my
>life" (Psalm 23:6). When he looks ahead, he remembers the words of
>Jude 21--"Looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal
>life." As he begins each new day, he can say; "It is of the Lord's
>mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
>They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness" (Lamentations
>3:22-23).
>. . . God responds to us on the basis of the heart. "With the
>merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou
>wilt shew thyself upright; with the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure;
>and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward" (Psalm 18:25-
>26). . . . When once we begin to cultivate one of the spiritual
>graces, God always provides more. When we show mercy, He gives mercy;
>and thus, we have more mercy to show.
>When a Christian shows mercy, he experiences liberation. He is set
>free from grudges that drain the strength and unsettle the mind. . .
>The most miserable prison in the world is the prison we make for
>ourselves when we refuse to show mercy. Our thoughts become shackled,
>our emotions are chained, the will is almost paralyzed. But when we
>show mercy, all of these bonds are broken, and we enter into a joyful
>liberty that frees us to share God's love with others. This blessing
>of freedom is one way that we receive mercy as we show mercy. It is a
>blessed by-product of obeying God.
>. . . How thrilling to go through life sharing God's mercy and not
>having to judge people to see if they are "worthy" of what we have to
>offer. We stop looking at the externals and begin to see people
>through the merciful eyes of Christ. Every Christian we meet is a
>person in whom Jesus lives; every lost soul we meet is a person for
>whom Jesus died. In both cases, we have candidates for God's mercy.'
>
>Surely, as a Church and people of Christ we need to be centres of
>mercy. People who come through our doors need to know that
>forgiveness, mercy and love will be the greeting they receive.
>
>Instead of building big churchs, with lots of money, we need to focus
>on the reality that the world needs a people who care and will love
>them but hate their sin.
>
>A few years ago, i watched a pastor put a burgular alarm on his
>pentecostal church, it struck me that, here was the church actually
>trying to keep sinners out. To protect our assets is one thing, but
>what is the message we are giving to the world.
>
>I think we sometimes lose the reality that, we are saved by grace and
>if it was not for God's mercy we to would be condemed with the rest.
>How much more love and grace should we show?
>
>It certainly has challenged me.
>
>Cheers
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Dr. John H. Gerstner
“Repent or Perish” forces people to ponder seriously the popular slogan, “God
hates the sin and loves the sinner.” Is a necessary repentance consistent with
“God loves the sinner?” If God loves the sinner while he is alive, it is strange
that God sends him to hell as soon as he dies. God loves the sinner to death?
Loves him to everlasting torment?
There is something wrong here. Either God loves the sinner and will not send him
into the furnace of His eternal wrath; or He sends him into His eternal wrath
and does not love him. Either “you are going to hell unless” because God hates
you, as you are. Or, God loves you and “you are going to hell unless” is false.
What leads almost everyone to believe that God loves the sinner is that God does
the sinner so much good. He bestows so many favors including letting him
continue to live. How can God let the sinner live and give him so many
blessings, unless He loves him? There is a kind of love between God and sinners.
We call it the “love of benevolence.” That means the love of good will.
Benevolens — willing well. Doing well. God can do well to the sinner without
loving him with the other kind of love. “Complacent love,” a pleasure in,
affection for, admiration of. It exists in perfection between the Father and the
Son, “in whom I am well pleased” (Matt.3:17; Mk.1:11).
God is perfectly displeased with the sinner. The sinner hates God, disobeys God,
is ungrateful to God for all His favors, would kill God if he could. He is dead
in trespasses and sins. (Eph.2:1) “The thoughts and intents of his heart are
only evil continually.” (Gen.6:5) He is the slave of sin (John 8:34), the
servant of the devil, (Eph.2:2).
God has no complacent love for the sinner at all. He has a perfect hatred of
him, “1 hate them with a perfect hatred.” (Ps. 139:22)
Why does God do so much good for those He perfectly hates and as soon as they
die impenitent send them immediately to hell and never in all eternity does them
one solitary favor more? It is to show His willingness to forgive the sinner if
only he will repent. It shows the sincerity of God’s willingness to pardon the
greatest sinner that, even while He hates him with a perfect hatred, He showers
him with constant daily blessings.
As I mentioned in Chapter 1, there is no “problem of pain.” The only problem is
the “problem of pleasure.” Dreadful as it is, it is not surprising that God
sends sinners to hell. The problem is why He does not do it sooner. Why does God
let a hell-deserving sinner live a minute and then let him prosper like the
green bay tree (Ps.37:35), as well? It is obvious that God can destroy the
ungrateful. Why doesn’t He? That is the problem.
Yes, the sinner suffers, too. But so little. It is a gentle reminder: though the
sinner receives many divine favors, that does not mean that God is pleased with
him. It is in spite of the fact that God hates him with a perfect hatred.
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness
and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the
kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Rom.2:4)
Our text also shows that the one reason a sinner is permitted to be born into
and enjoy this world rather than wake up as an infant in hell is that God, with
His love of benevolence, is determined to give the sinner a “chance,” an
opportunity to repent. Alas, most sinners use it as a chance to sin! They make
God’s blessed love of benevolence into a curse.
In this world the sinner enjoys nothing but the benevolent love of God. Every
experience of pain as well as pleasure is from God’s love — of benevolence. Even
pain is from love because it tends to wake the sinner to his danger. God indeed
loves the sinner, whom He hates with a perfect hatred, with a perfect love of
benevolence.
The sinner, as I said, makes every divine blessing into a curse including God’s
love of benevolence. This he does by construing a love of benevolence as a love
of complacency.
Construing God’s love of benevolence as a love of complacency is fatal. Instead
of the divine forbearance leading to repentance, it is used as an excuse for
non-repentance. Thus the sinner is not saved but damned by God’s love of
benevolence.
God “loves” the sinner benevolently and hates the sinner displacently. If the
sinner dies impenitent, God removes His love of benevolence and pours out the
full wrath of his displacent love.
As far as “hatred of sins” is concerned, sins do not exist apart from the
sinner. God does hate sinning, killing, stealing, lying, lusting, etc., but this
alludes to the perpetrator of these crimes.
God never hates the redeemed even when they sin. Is He an unfair respecter of
persons? No! (Act. 10:34) God hates the unredeemed sinner but loves the redeemed
even when they sin for a good and just reason. God loves the redeemed even when
they sin because His Son, in whom God is always well-pleased, ever lives to make
intercession for them. (Rom.8:27, 34) Christ died to atone for the guilt of His
people’s sins. When they sin, these are atoned-for sins. They are sins with
their guilt removed. In one sense, they are not sins at all. God does not hate
His people when they sin because they are in His Son, Christ Jesus. And they are
made acceptable in His Son. He “has made us accepted in the Beloved.” (Eph. 1:6)
Divine nepotism? No, His Son died for these people and paid the price for their
sins past, present, and future. They are cancelled before they are committed.
That is truth, not fiction. Righteousness, not nepotistic favoritism. In fact,
it is not their original relationship to Christ which makes their sins
guiltless, but Christ’s making satisfaction for their sins that created the
relationship as children adopted into the family of God.
God, in hot displeasure, chastens His people when they sin (Ps.6: 1; 38:1). It
is not hatred but complacent love in Christ Jesus. “Whom the Lord loves He
chastens.” (Heb. 12:6,7) God loves His people even when He afflicts them and
hates the impenitent even when He befriends them.
Why the chastening when there is love? God blessed the wicked when there was
holy hatred. Now He chastens His people when there is holy love. This is because
true moral behavior must be perfected. No sin can be tolerated in those for whom
Christ died. He died to purchase a “peculiar people zealous of good works.”
(Titus 2:14) Being redeemed, so far from tolerating their sinning, precludes it.
Anyone who persists in sinning proves thereby that he is not a child of God. God
punishes His own especially because they are His children. “You only have I
chosen among all the families of the earth: Therefore I will punish you for all
your iniquities.” (Amos 3:2)
“Upright” man was promised and warned. A holy, just, and perfect God would
promise and warn. Eternal life — if obedient. Instant death — the moment of
disobedience. (Gen.3:5; Ecc.7:29)
When man sinned, he died spiritually and was rejected from communion with God
his maker and friend. (Gen.3; Rom. 5:12ff) The wrath of God was upon him; labor
was his lot; suffering in childbirth; alienation and death, as threatened. God
is holy; of purer eyes than to behold iniquity. (Hab. 1:13)
Yet mortal man “lived” on (though to live in pleasure is death, 1 Tim. 5:6), and
so did promise. When the angels sinned they perished without delay, without
promise, without hope.
Man’s fate was better and worse than the fallen angels’ lot. It was a day of
possible salvation but also of possible greater damnation, greater damnation for
sinning away the day of possible salvation. God in His wrath; God in His mercy;
at the same time.
This was a terrible but holy wrath. God was using His omnipotent power but
according to His perfect justice. Man was affected but he deserved it. It was no
more, no less, than he deserved. God is no more powerful than holy; no more holy
than powerful.
As man continued to sin, God continued to increase His fury. His wrath is in no
hurry. The record is kept, all accounts receivable. Every idle word will be
brought into judgment (Matt. 12:36). The cup of iniquity must be filled. Then
wrath to the uttermost. (1 Thess. 2:16) God’s glory shines in the perfection of
His work.
But — God decreed the sin, (Prov. 16:4). Yes, for good and for glory. Man did it
for evil and for shame.
A little sin and infinite wrath? A little sin against an infinite God is
infinite. Wrath is in perfect proportion to the guilt. But even if the
punishment were finite it would go in “infinitely,” unendingly, because the
sinner continues to sin in resenting it.
All glory to God for His holy anger. (John 17:3; Rom.9: 17f)
---------------------------------
Author
Dr. John H. Gerstner was born in Tampa, Florida, and raised in Pennsylvania. He
earned his Ph.D. from Harvard University. Dr. Gerstner pastored several churches
before accepting a professorship at Pittsburgh-Xenia Theological Seminary, where
he taught church history for over 30 years. He served as a visiting professor at
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, Illinois, and adjunct
professor at Knox Theological Seminary in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. Dr. Gerstner
was also professor-at-large for Ligonier Ministries for many years, and recorded
numerous lectures on audio and video for that organization.
Dr. Gerstner was a stalwart champion of the cause of reformed theology and, in
particular, the teachings of Jonathan Edwards.
---------------------------------
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Sorry for the long post, but I thought that that was a good article and I wanted
to share it after reading Alans post.
I have read "What's so Amazing about Grace?" By Yancey. Great book. He makes a
lot of good points. Some times as Christians we act more like self-righteous
pharisees then those who were pharisees in Jesus day. When we forget that it is
all of Grace, we begin to think more of our selves then we should, and look
down upon those who are on the out side forgetting that we to were once lost and
undone, with out hope and with out Christ.
May God always help us to remember where we were when he found us.
Grace & peace.
tom
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Here is a good web site for any one interested in hearing sermons and
teachings on biblical grace. www.keylife.org
The teacher, Steve Brown is a bible teacher in the PCA church and has
a ministry to help Christians understand grace better. I like him my
self and wanted to pass his url onto you.
One of my favorite quotes from him is this, "Cheer up, your not as
bad as you think you are, Your a lot worse. But Cheer up, God's Grace
is a lot greater then you think it is"
He is not Antinomian (Hope that I spelled that right) but has been
acused by his critics of being one. He knows and understands the
human condition and he also knows what the bible says about it. He
does not lay guilt trips on people, but he does tell them the truth
in love. Some thing that is needed in our day and age.
Well any way just wanted to pass that on. God bless.
Grace & peace
tom
The "Danger" of the Gospel of Grace
by D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones
There is a sense in which the doctrine of "justification by faith
ONLY" is a very dangerous doctrine; dangerous, I mean, in the
sense that it can be misunderstood. It exposes a man to this
particular charge: People listening to it may say, "Ah, there is
a man who does not encourage us to live a good life, he seems to
say that there is no value in our works, he says that 'all our
righteousness are as filthy rags.' Therefore what he is saying
is that it does not matter what you do, sin as much as you
like." ... There is thus clearly a sense in which the message
of "justification by faith only" can be dangerous, and likewise
it is with the message that salvation is entirely of grace.
. . . I say therefore that if our preaching does not expose us to that
charge and to that misunderstanding, it is because we are not
really preaching the gospel.
Nobody has ever brought this charge against the Church of Rome,
but it was brought frequently against Martin Luther; indeed that was
precisely what the Church of Rome said about the preaching of
Martin Luther. They said, "This man who was a priest has changed
the doctrine in order to justify his own marriage and his own lust",
. . . and so on. "This man", they said, "is an antinomian; and that is
heresy."
That is the very charge they brought against him. It was also
brought against George Whitefield two hundred years ago. It is
the charge that formal dead Christianity -- if there is such a
thing -- has always brought against this startling, staggering
message, that God "justifies the ungodly", and that we are
saved, not by anything we do, but in spite of it, entirely and
only by the grace of God through our Lord and Saviour Jesus
Christ.
That is my comment; and it is a very important comment for
preachers. I would say to all preachers: If your preaching of
salvation has not been misunderstood in that way, then you had
better examine your sermons again, and you had better make sure
that you really are preaching the salvation that is offered in
the New Testament to the ungodly, to the sinner, to those who
are dead in trespasses and sins, to those who are enemies of
God.
There is this kind of dangerous element about the true
presentation of the doctrine of salvation.
[D. Martin Lloyd-Jones, "Romans, An Exposition of Chapter 6,
The New Man," (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1973), pp. 9-10. Quoted
by Steve Brown, "When Being Good Isn't Good Enough," (Nashville:
Thomas Nelson, 1990), pp. 102-103.]
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This is probably the type of robust Reformed theology which I tend disagree
with (or at least I am not yet convinced by). Firtsly I think when he says
'sinner' he means those who are not the elect. The bible tells us that God
loves sinners (Rom 5.8) bur these from a Reforemed point of view are the
elect. I am troubled with his view that all 'sinners' would want to kill God
if they could. Let us consider Cornelius, before he was converted. In one
sense he was a sinner (not yet a Christian) but at the same time he is
described as someone who feared God. Are not many non-Chrsitians in this
category. What does Dr Gerstner mean when he uses the term sinner? Somebody
please tell me.
Brian
>From: tom mitchell <repentant_reformer@...>
>Reply-To: reformeddoctrineforum@...
>To: reformeddoctrineforum@...
>Subject: [Reformed Doctrine Forum] Rich in Mercy? yes He is.
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:50:16 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
>
>Dr. John H. Gerstner
>
>
>
>“Repent or Perish” forces people to ponder seriously the popular slogan,
>“God hates the sin and loves the sinner.” Is a necessary repentance
>consistent with “God loves the sinner?” If God loves the sinner while he is
>alive, it is strange that God sends him to hell as soon as he dies. God
>loves the sinner to death? Loves him to everlasting torment?
>
>There is something wrong here. Either God loves the sinner and will not
>send him into the furnace of His eternal wrath; or He sends him into His
>eternal wrath and does not love him. Either “you are going to hell unless”
>because God hates you, as you are. Or, God loves you and “you are going to
>hell unless” is false.
>
>What leads almost everyone to believe that God loves the sinner is that God
>does the sinner so much good. He bestows so many favors including letting
>him continue to live. How can God let the sinner live and give him so many
>blessings, unless He loves him? There is a kind of love between God and
>sinners. We call it the “love of benevolence.” That means the love of good
>will. Benevolens — willing well. Doing well. God can do well to the sinner
>without loving him with the other kind of love. “Complacent love,” a
>pleasure in, affection for, admiration of. It exists in perfection between
>the Father and the Son, “in whom I am well pleased” (Matt.3:17; Mk.1:11).
>
>God is perfectly displeased with the sinner. The sinner hates God, disobeys
>God, is ungrateful to God for all His favors, would kill God if he could.
>He is dead in trespasses and sins. (Eph.2:1) “The thoughts and intents of
>his heart are only evil continually.” (Gen.6:5) He is the slave of sin
>(John 8:34), the servant of the devil, (Eph.2:2).
>
>God has no complacent love for the sinner at all. He has a perfect hatred
>of him, “1 hate them with a perfect hatred.” (Ps. 139:22)
>
>Why does God do so much good for those He perfectly hates and as soon as
>they die impenitent send them immediately to hell and never in all eternity
>does them one solitary favor more? It is to show His willingness to forgive
>the sinner if only he will repent. It shows the sincerity of God’s
>willingness to pardon the greatest sinner that, even while He hates him
>with a perfect hatred, He showers him with constant daily blessings.
>
>As I mentioned in Chapter 1, there is no “problem of pain.” The only
>problem is the “problem of pleasure.” Dreadful as it is, it is not
>surprising that God sends sinners to hell. The problem is why He does not
>do it sooner. Why does God let a hell-deserving sinner live a minute and
>then let him prosper like the green bay tree (Ps.37:35), as well? It is
>obvious that God can destroy the ungrateful. Why doesn’t He? That is the
>problem.
>
>Yes, the sinner suffers, too. But so little. It is a gentle reminder:
>though the sinner receives many divine favors, that does not mean that God
>is pleased with him. It is in spite of the fact that God hates him with a
>perfect hatred.
>
>Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness
>and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the
>kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Rom.2:4)
>
>Our text also shows that the one reason a sinner is permitted to be born
>into and enjoy this world rather than wake up as an infant in hell is that
>God, with His love of benevolence, is determined to give the sinner a
>“chance,” an opportunity to repent. Alas, most sinners use it as a chance
>to sin! They make God’s blessed love of benevolence into a curse.
>
>In this world the sinner enjoys nothing but the benevolent love of God.
>Every experience of pain as well as pleasure is from God’s love — of
>benevolence. Even pain is from love because it tends to wake the sinner to
>his danger. God indeed loves the sinner, whom He hates with a perfect
>hatred, with a perfect love of benevolence.
>
>The sinner, as I said, makes every divine blessing into a curse including
>God’s love of benevolence. This he does by construing a love of benevolence
>as a love of complacency.
>
>Construing God’s love of benevolence as a love of complacency is fatal.
>Instead of the divine forbearance leading to repentance, it is used as an
>excuse for non-repentance. Thus the sinner is not saved but damned by God’s
>love of benevolence.
>
>God “loves” the sinner benevolently and hates the sinner displacently. If
>the sinner dies impenitent, God removes His love of benevolence and pours
>out the full wrath of his displacent love.
>
>As far as “hatred of sins” is concerned, sins do not exist apart from the
>sinner. God does hate sinning, killing, stealing, lying, lusting, etc., but
>this alludes to the perpetrator of these crimes.
>
>God never hates the redeemed even when they sin. Is He an unfair respecter
>of persons? No! (Act. 10:34) God hates the unredeemed sinner but loves the
>redeemed even when they sin for a good and just reason. God loves the
>redeemed even when they sin because His Son, in whom God is always
>well-pleased, ever lives to make intercession for them. (Rom.8:27, 34)
>Christ died to atone for the guilt of His people’s sins. When they sin,
>these are atoned-for sins. They are sins with their guilt removed. In one
>sense, they are not sins at all. God does not hate His people when they sin
>because they are in His Son, Christ Jesus. And they are made acceptable in
>His Son. He “has made us accepted in the Beloved.” (Eph. 1:6)
>
>Divine nepotism? No, His Son died for these people and paid the price for
>their sins past, present, and future. They are cancelled before they are
>committed. That is truth, not fiction. Righteousness, not nepotistic
>favoritism. In fact, it is not their original relationship to Christ which
>makes their sins guiltless, but Christ’s making satisfaction for their sins
>that created the relationship as children adopted into the family of God.
>
>God, in hot displeasure, chastens His people when they sin (Ps.6: 1; 38:1).
>It is not hatred but complacent love in Christ Jesus. “Whom the Lord loves
>He chastens.” (Heb. 12:6,7) God loves His people even when He afflicts them
>and hates the impenitent even when He befriends them.
>
>Why the chastening when there is love? God blessed the wicked when there
>was holy hatred. Now He chastens His people when there is holy love. This
>is because true moral behavior must be perfected. No sin can be tolerated
>in those for whom Christ died. He died to purchase a “peculiar people
>zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14) Being redeemed, so far from tolerating
>their sinning, precludes it. Anyone who persists in sinning proves thereby
>that he is not a child of God. God punishes His own especially because they
>are His children. “You only have I chosen among all the families of the
>earth: Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” (Amos 3:2)
>
>“Upright” man was promised and warned. A holy, just, and perfect God would
>promise and warn. Eternal life — if obedient. Instant death — the moment of
>disobedience. (Gen.3:5; Ecc.7:29)
>
>When man sinned, he died spiritually and was rejected from communion with
>God his maker and friend. (Gen.3; Rom. 5:12ff) The wrath of God was upon
>him; labor was his lot; suffering in childbirth; alienation and death, as
>threatened. God is holy; of purer eyes than to behold iniquity. (Hab. 1:13)
>
>Yet mortal man “lived” on (though to live in pleasure is death, 1 Tim.
>5:6), and so did promise. When the angels sinned they perished without
>delay, without promise, without hope.
>
>Man’s fate was better and worse than the fallen angels’ lot. It was a day
>of possible salvation but also of possible greater damnation, greater
>damnation for sinning away the day of possible salvation. God in His wrath;
>God in His mercy; at the same time.
>
>This was a terrible but holy wrath. God was using His omnipotent power but
>according to His perfect justice. Man was affected but he deserved it. It
>was no more, no less, than he deserved. God is no more powerful than holy;
>no more holy than powerful.
>
>As man continued to sin, God continued to increase His fury. His wrath is
>in no hurry. The record is kept, all accounts receivable. Every idle word
>will be brought into judgment (Matt. 12:36). The cup of iniquity must be
>filled. Then wrath to the uttermost. (1 Thess. 2:16) God’s glory shines in
>the perfection of His work.
>
>But — God decreed the sin, (Prov. 16:4). Yes, for good and for glory. Man
>did it for evil and for shame.
>
>A little sin and infinite wrath? A little sin against an infinite God is
>infinite. Wrath is in perfect proportion to the guilt. But even if the
>punishment were finite it would go in “infinitely,” unendingly, because the
>sinner continues to sin in resenting it.
>
>All glory to God for His holy anger. (John 17:3; Rom.9: 17f)
>
>---------------------------------
>
>Author
>
>Dr. John H. Gerstner was born in Tampa, Florida, and raised in
>Pennsylvania. He earned his Ph.D. from Harvard University. Dr. Gerstner
>pastored several churches before accepting a professorship at
>Pittsburgh-Xenia Theological Seminary, where he taught church history for
>over 30 years. He served as a visiting professor at Trinity Evangelical
>Divinity School in Deerfield, Illinois, and adjunct professor at Knox
>Theological Seminary in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. Dr. Gerstner was also
>professor-at-large for Ligonier Ministries for many years, and recorded
>numerous lectures on audio and video for that organization.
>
>Dr. Gerstner was a stalwart champion of the cause of reformed theology and,
>in particular, the teachings of Jonathan Edwards.
>
>
>
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When I was a secular missionary by a leprosary of Central Africa
(mission of Kayon Ghozi-Burundi), I wrote these lucky Flashes of
mine about the Holy Gospels, which were read by thousands of people
and gave new hope to lots of them.
I take this opportunity to thank once more all those who wrote to
me, whom I answered one by one. Their words encouraged me and gave
me a bonus .I could see through them how they can play upon
somebody's heart-strings on this subject by logic and the faculty of
reason too.
I wish to tell precisely all those who accused me of "spamming", or
of "traying from the point", that making an Apology in the name of
Jesus Christ isn't "spamming", and that at any time, even in the
most unexpected place, you can find a person needing a word of hope.
Honouring the name of Christ, supporting Faith and giving arguments
to It, helping doubtful people, were and still are my first and only
intention , as well as the aim of my life, nearly at its end.
The end of my Flashes contains a twelve /thirteen-lined synthesis of
my past.
Internet site http://digilander.libero.it/crescini
E mail flashesgospels@...
Lorenzo Crescini
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