Photo of preserved Willowbrook bodied Grimsby Cleethorpes Fleetline
added to file.

Phil

Dear Phil,

Thanks for all the additional Info,  I remember travelling on the
Grimsby-Cleethorpes SRGs on holidays in the 1970s.
I'm afraid the group doesn't archive attachments so if you'd like to
upload the photo to the photos section of the group instead.

Stephen


--- In therearenginedbusclub@..., Phil Norris
<pnorris@b...> wrote:
> Stephen,
>
> I'm afraid I am old enough to admit doing the customers drawing
for the
> first
> single deck Fleetline that Grimsby had which was exhibited at
Earls Court in
> 1966!!!
>
> A copy of the drawing is actually on the vehicle, which is
preserved, and
> owned by
> Nigel Rhodes of Lincoln.(Photo Attached)
>
> I therefore remember the Bournemouth Roadliners, which had the
same floor
> layout
> as the prototype PMT vehicle built by Marshalls. (It's amazing
what went
> through various factory
> doors in those days!!)
>
> The Halifax vehicles were similar to the Grimsby ones, but only
had a single
> door and were
> traditional in there appearance with domes front and rear.
>
> Other vehicles built similar to Grimsby, were a Daimler Demo,
which went to
> Rochdale, who
> ordered 4 others I believe, and 2 for Rotherham, which had
overdrive
> resulting in a power bulge
> on the offside, below the radiator grille! Both of these orders
had double
> folding wide doors.
>
> The Derby vehicles were the first built to 2 1/2 Metres wide, as
were the 11
> metre long vehicles.
>
> Regards
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Allcroft [mailto:stephenallcroft@l...]
> Sent: 05 April 2005 15:58
> To: therearenginedbusclub
> Subject: [the rear engined bus club] Willowbrook damilers WAS:NGT
> saloons
>
>
>
> Thanks Phil,
>
> IIRC, Bournemouth's Roadliners also had Willowbrook bodies.
>
> NGT's Fleetlines had Willowbrook, Alexander W type and (the ex-
Maidstone &
> District ones) Marshall bodies. I've also a feeling that the very
first SRGs
> for Grimsby-Cleethorpes and Halifax were Willowbrook, as were
batches for
> South Shields (delivered to Tyneside PTE) and Derby.
>
> Stephen
>
>
> > From:: "sprite892003" <pnorris@b...>
> > To: therearenginedbusclub@...
> > Subject: Re: [the rear engined bus club] New group_Roadliner_NGT
saloons
> > Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:12:56 -0000
>
> > <pre>
> >
> > The Daimlers were Fleetlines, but built with Willowbrook bodies.
They
> > were built at the same time as 20 for Northampton and 2 for
RTITB,
> > which subsequently went to Graham's of Paisley.
> > The only Roadliners to come out of Loughborough were exported to
> > Canada under the Duple name, to both Edmonton (28) and Calgary
(3)
> >
> > Ex Willowbook Phil
> >
> > --- In therearenginedbusclub@..., "Tony"
<ken@a...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Tony replies:
> > > I concur with that too. From memory, these single-deckers were
> > > Alexander W types on Fleetline SRG6LX-36's. I know that
Northern
> > > General did have some secondhand buses at this time, mostly
AEC
> > > Renowns from East Yorkshire but my records show no reference
to
> > > Roadliners.
>
> --
> "So, Blofeld, you expect me to talk!"
> "My dear old thing! I thought during the interval you know...over
the
> radio... meanwhile isn't that no. 24 bus rather super!"
>
> Lycos email has now 300 Megabytes of free storage... Get it now at
> mail.lycos.co.uk
>
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> therearenginedbusclub-unsubscribe@...
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may contain
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>
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stephen,

I'm afraid I am old enough to admit doing the customers drawing for the
first
single deck Fleetline that Grimsby had which was exhibited at Earls Court in
1966!!!

A copy of the drawing is actually on the vehicle, which is preserved, and
owned by
Nigel Rhodes of Lincoln.(Photo Attached)

I therefore remember the Bournemouth Roadliners, which had the same floor
layout
as the prototype PMT vehicle built by Marshalls. (It's amazing what went
through various factory
doors in those days!!)

The Halifax vehicles were similar to the Grimsby ones, but only had a single
door and were
traditional in there appearance with domes front and rear.

Other vehicles built similar to Grimsby, were a Daimler Demo, which went to
Rochdale, who
ordered 4 others I believe, and 2 for Rotherham, which had overdrive
resulting in a power bulge
on the offside, below the radiator grille! Both of these orders had double
folding wide doors.

The Derby vehicles were the first built to 2 1/2 Metres wide, as were the 11
metre long vehicles.

Regards

Phil



-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Allcroft [mailto:stephenallcroft@...]
Sent: 05 April 2005 15:58
To: therearenginedbusclub
Subject: [the rear engined bus club] Willowbrook damilers WAS:NGT
saloons



Thanks Phil,

IIRC, Bournemouth's Roadliners also had Willowbrook bodies.

NGT's Fleetlines had Willowbrook, Alexander W type and (the ex-Maidstone &
District ones) Marshall bodies. I've also a feeling that the very first SRGs
for Grimsby-Cleethorpes and Halifax were Willowbrook, as were batches for
South Shields (delivered to Tyneside PTE) and Derby.

Stephen


> From:: "sprite892003" <pnorris@...>
> To: therearenginedbusclub@...
> Subject: Re: [the rear engined bus club] New group_Roadliner_NGT saloons
> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:12:56 -0000

> <pre>
>
> The Daimlers were Fleetlines, but built with Willowbrook bodies. They
> were built at the same time as 20 for Northampton and 2 for RTITB,
> which subsequently went to Graham's of Paisley.
> The only Roadliners to come out of Loughborough were exported to
> Canada under the Duple name, to both Edmonton (28) and Calgary (3)
>
> Ex Willowbook Phil
>
> --- In therearenginedbusclub@..., "Tony" <ken@a...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Tony replies:
> > I concur with that too. From memory, these single-deckers were
> > Alexander W types on Fleetline SRG6LX-36's. I know that Northern
> > General did have some secondhand buses at this time, mostly AEC
> > Renowns from East Yorkshire but my records show no reference to
> > Roadliners.

--
"So, Blofeld, you expect me to talk!"
"My dear old thing! I thought during the interval you know...over the
radio... meanwhile isn't that no. 24 bus rather super!"

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This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may contain legally
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Phil,

IIRC, Bournemouth's Roadliners also had Willowbrook bodies.

NGT's Fleetlines had Willowbrook, Alexander W type and (the ex-Maidstone &
District ones) Marshall bodies. I've also a feeling that the very first SRGs for
Grimsby-Cleethorpes and Halifax were Willowbrook, as were batches for South
Shields (delivered to Tyneside PTE) and Derby.

Stephen


> From:: "sprite892003" <pnorris@...>
> To: therearenginedbusclub@...
> Subject: Re: [the rear engined bus club] New group_Roadliner_NGT saloons
> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:12:56 -0000

> <pre>
>
> The Daimlers were Fleetlines, but built with Willowbrook bodies. They
> were built at the same time as 20 for Northampton and 2 for RTITB,
> which subsequently went to Graham's of Paisley.
> The only Roadliners to come out of Loughborough were exported to
> Canada under the Duple name, to both Edmonton (28) and Calgary (3)
>
> Ex Willowbook Phil
>
> --- In therearenginedbusclub@..., "Tony" <ken@a...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Tony replies:
> > I concur with that too. From memory, these single-deckers were
> > Alexander W types on Fleetline SRG6LX-36's. I know that Northern
> > General did have some secondhand buses at this time, mostly AEC
> > Renowns from East Yorkshire but my records show no reference to
> > Roadliners.

--
"So, Blofeld, you expect me to talk!"
"My dear old thing! I thought during the interval you know...over the radio...
meanwhile isn't that no. 24 bus rather super!"

Lycos email has now 300 Megabytes of free storage... Get it now at
mail.lycos.co.uk



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Daimlers were Fleetlines, but built with Willowbrook bodies. They
were built at the same time as 20 for Northampton and 2 for RTITB,
which subsequently went to Graham's of Paisley.
The only Roadliners to come out of Loughborough were exported to
Canada under the Duple name, to both Edmonton (28) and Calgary (3)

Ex Willowbook Phil

--- In therearenginedbusclub@..., "Tony" <ken@a...>
wrote:
>
> Tony replies:
> I concur with that too. From memory, these single-deckers were
> Alexander W types on Fleetline SRG6LX-36's. I know that Northern
> General did have some secondhand buses at this time, mostly AEC
> Renowns from East Yorkshire but my records show no reference to
> Roadliners.
>
> "Stephen Allcroft" <stephenallcroft@l...> had written:
> >  Dear Jacky,
> >
> > I've a feeling the buses Northern had were single-deck Fleetlines
> and not Roadliners. ......

Tony replies:
I concur with that too. From memory, these single-deckers were
Alexander W types on Fleetline SRG6LX-36's. I know that Northern
General did have some secondhand buses at this time, mostly AEC
Renowns from East Yorkshire but my records show no reference to
Roadliners.

"Stephen Allcroft" <stephenallcroft@l...> had written:
>  Dear Jacky,
>
> I've a feeling the buses Northern had were single-deck Fleetlines
and not Roadliners. ......

 Dear Jacky,

I've a feeling the buses Northern had were single-deck Fleetlines and not
Roadliners. AFAIR, the only BET/NBC fleets who had SRC6s & SRP8s were PMT, Black
& White and Oxford. West Riding had 10 in its early NBC days but these were
purchased when it was a private operator.

Stephen Allcroft



> From:: jacky coombes <jackcoom53@...>
> To: therearenginedbusclub@...
> Subject: Re: [the rear engined bus club] New group_Roadliner
> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:00:57 +0000 (GMT)

> Hi Tony,
>
> Stupid question for you and it is unrelated to your new group, but How
> do you get the "join this club" button displayed. I have followed
> the instructions (I think anyway!!), but I just cannot copy it to the front
> page of my group, a plug is in order here (the geordie bus depot) as nobody
> seems to be interested in it! any help would be grafully received. By the
> way Northern General operated some roadliners during the 70's, as I teenager
> I thought they were alright, but my father (who drove these buses sometimes)
> said that they were very unliked by the drivers hence they didn't last
> very long!! He never did say why!! I have some photos of them if you would
> like them for your group just let me know and I will email them to you.
>
> John
> Tony <ken@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I've started a new group dedicated to my favourite chassis, the
> Daimler Roadliner. Hope it finds interest.
> Regards,
> Tony.
> <A HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roadliner"
TARGET="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roadliner</A>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> therearenginedbusclub-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
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Win one of eight stylish mini iPods. Go to
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pup=1&cpid=7



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Tony,

Stupid question for you and it is unrelated to your new group, but How do you
get the "join this club" button displayed. I have followed the instructions (I
think anyway!!), but I just cannot copy it to the front page of my group, a plug
is in order here (the geordie bus depot) as nobody seems to be interested in it!
any help would be grafully received. By the way Northern General operated some
roadliners during the 70's, as I teenager I thought they were alright, but my
father (who drove these buses sometimes) said that they were very unliked by the
drivers hence they didn't last very long!! He never did say why!! I have some
photos of them if you would like them for your group just let me know and I will
email them to you.

John
Tony <ken@...> wrote:

Hi, I've started a new group dedicated to my favourite chassis, the
Daimler Roadliner. Hope it finds interest.
Regards,
Tony.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roadliner





To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
therearenginedbusclub-unsubscribe@...




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 
I'd heard something of that before, but just imagine it! a fleeet of 11 metre
double deck trolleys!


> From:: "Tony" <ken@...>
> To: therearenginedbusclub@...
> Subject: [the rear engined bus club] Re: XDH 56 G progress at Wythall_it is
undercoat
> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:47:59 -0000

> Hi Stephen, I did say in my message that it's undercoat, yes. You are
> quite right about it being paler when new - powder blue with ivory
> window pans. It was a one-off colour scheme at Walsall. According to
> Keith Bodley at The Black Country Museum, Ron Edgley Cox, Walsall's
> individualistic general manager, got hold of a batch of paint cheap
> and it was supposedly battleship grey. Not sure how accurate all that
> is but 56 was certainly one on its own. The intention was that if its
> layout was deemed a success, then it would form the prototype for a
> new fleet of high-capacity trolleybuses at Walsall. The V6 Cummins
> sat under the rear stairs and could easily be replaced with an
> electric traction motor. The bus even had double-skin insulated
> floors with all this in mind, as I understand. Of course, with the
> coming of WMPTE in 1969, nothing came of the project and R. Edgley
> resigned soon after.
> Regards,
> Tony.
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> therearenginedbusclub-unsubscribe@...
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

The wait is "Ogre"! Shrek "2sday" is here! Buy the Video or DVD to see tons of
amazing extras including the Shrektastic mini-film "Far Far Away Idol"! Go to
http://www.play.com/play247.asp?pa=sb&page=promo&r=R2&id=736&source=859



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Stephen, I did say in my message that it's undercoat, yes. You are
quite right about it being paler when new - powder blue with ivory
window pans. It was a one-off colour scheme at Walsall. According to
Keith Bodley at The Black Country Museum, Ron Edgley Cox, Walsall's
individualistic general manager, got hold of a batch of paint cheap
and it was supposedly battleship grey. Not sure how accurate all that
is but 56 was certainly one on its own. The intention was that if its
layout was deemed a success, then it would form the prototype for a
new fleet of high-capacity trolleybuses at Walsall. The V6 Cummins
sat under the rear stairs and could easily be replaced with an
electric traction motor. The bus even had double-skin insulated
floors with all this in mind, as I understand. Of course, with the
coming of WMPTE in 1969, nothing came of the project and R. Edgley
resigned soon after.
Regards,
Tony.

Thanks Tony,
Good to see the work that's being done on this unique to the UK bus.
Is that paint undercoat? wasn't it rather paler when new?




--- In therearenginedbusclub@..., "Tony" <ken@a...>
wrote:
>
> I am informed by its owner that this unique Daimler CRC6/36
(Cummins
> V6-200) Northern Counties H86D is now in undercoat at Wythall
museum.
> It was rescued at the 11th. hour back in the 1980's by Dave Taylor,
> after some frantic phone calls between myself and its last owner,
Ian
> Hale T/A Hale Bros. Coaches at Bishops Stortford. Prior to that, I
> had got to know it when it ran for Mick Quigleys "Luxicoaches" at
> Borrowash, Derby, where it workd on the Friesland School contract.
It
> is a rare and lucky survivor. The only other ones built of
> this "Fleetline" variant were a batch of 15 for Johannesburg. I
have
> put a couple of photos of the beast in the photo section. Regards,
> Tony.

I am informed by its owner that this unique Daimler CRC6/36 (Cummins
V6-200) Northern Counties H86D is now in undercoat at Wythall museum.
It was rescued at the 11th. hour back in the 1980's by Dave Taylor,
after some frantic phone calls between myself and its last owner, Ian
Hale T/A Hale Bros. Coaches at Bishops Stortford. Prior to that, I
had got to know it when it ran for Mick Quigleys "Luxicoaches" at
Borrowash, Derby, where it workd on the Friesland School contract. It
is a rare and lucky survivor. The only other ones built of
this "Fleetline" variant were a batch of 15 for Johannesburg. I have
put a couple of photos of the beast in the photo section. Regards,
Tony.

Hi, I've started a new group dedicated to my favourite chassis, the
Daimler Roadliner. Hope it finds interest.
Regards,
Tony.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roadliner

Check out my pics !!!

I am a newie here. A bit of an Atlantean fan but I just like buses.
Hoping to start on my PCV licence soon, yeay !!!

-----Original Message-----
From: therearenginedbusclub Moderator
[mailto:therearenginedbusclub-owner@...]
Sent: 28 August 2004 18:22
To: steve.wright61@...
Subject: Welcome to therearenginedbusclub


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Stephen - I have just joiuned the group.I found your article very
interesting. I wrote a 12 page tome for "Buses Extra" on the
Roadliner back in 1986 and had detailed discussions with PMT,
Chesterfield and Bournemouth about it during my research. A
fascianting subject. Have you ridden on NJW 719 E at Wythall? I also
had a chance to ride on KDD 276 E down in Kent in the 1980's - this
was Coach of the year in 1967 and is a formidable best with its fully
rated Cummins V6-200.
I was also instrumental in the saving of the unique Daimler CRC6-36
XDH 56 G, Walsall's 1968 special "The Furniture Van" and received a
very interesting letter about it from the late R. Edgley Cox,
Walsall's innovative General Manager who was responsible for its
existence. Regards, Tony.

Pennine's parent Seddon Diesel Vehicles Ltd must have noticed the
forward orders for rear-engined single decks because in 1969 it
launched its own.  The marketing people at Seddon were astute; they
had the metal-bashers reverse-engineer the Bristol RE, clearly the
market leader and built by a firm straining the limits of their
productive capacity. The salient features, 33ft or 36ft length,
Gardner 6HLX engine and Self-Changing Gears gearbox were the same.

From 1969-74, from a standing start; in one of the greatest hit and
run raids ever staged on bus operators; the Seddon Pennine RU (for
rear underfloor, their Mk V was also rear engined but a Perkins
powered Albion Viking clone for the third world) sold 275 to
municipals, independents and one NBC subsidiary; from just north of
the Antonine Wall, down to the English Channel; from the Irish sea
to the Yorkshire Wolds.

One hundred and eighty-three were sold with Pennine bodies, a round
one hundred of these went to Crosville, fifty EPGs (Express Pennine
Gardner) DP49F, and fifty SPG (Saloon) B45D, these were all 36ft
long. Crosville had refused to take Bristol VRs and clamoured for
REs: this order smacked of frustration. Municipal Pennine bodied RUs
went to Huddersfield (eighteen 33ft examples), Burnley Colne &
Nelson  (twenty @ 33ft), Doncaster (fourteen @ 33ft) Darlington
(eight @ 36ft, the last), Fylde (six @ 36ft), Morecambe (six @ 33ft)
Southampton (five @ 33ft) and Lancaster (an ex-demonstrator). There
were five for independents, two for AA Motor Services (Dodds) and
one each to Graham, Paisley, Garelochhead Coach Services and
Reliance (York).  A battery-powered version owned by Chloride, saw
service with SELNEC PTE but ended up at the Manchester Museum of
Transport.

Oldham was in east Lancashire but for some east Lancashire
municipals only a genuine East Lancashire body would do. Blackburn
had six RU/East Lancs and  Accrington's nine were also bodied in
Blackburn. Their last was an East Lancs coach (one of only,
thankfully, three!).

Plaxton put bodies on sixty-seven RUs, more rear-engined buses by
the Scarborough coach specialist than any other model. (Then, the
Dennis Dart was a long-forgotten model by a firm who'd stopped
making buses.) RUs accounted for 37% of Plaxton bodies on these
chassis. Fifty of them were 33ft Highways (what else?) for
Lancashire United Transport. Plaxton's only sale (then) of rear-
engined saloons to local authorities accounted for the other
seventeen. All 33ft Derwents, nine went to Rotherham, five to
Huddersfield and the other three to Calderdale JOC (which was half-
NBC anyway).

Finally Roe bodied the last eleven of Doncaster's RUs.  Their bodies
looked similar to those on Leeds' last Swifts, incorporating
features of the flat-screened double-deck body Roe built at that
time.

The one thing all eight chassis had in common was a low entrance for
the passenger, although the great majority had two-pedal semi-
automatic gearboxes to make the drivers life easier.  The first
thing the fifteen coachbuilders had in common was a desire to stay
in business. In the early days of this survey one was taken over by
a near neighbour (EEK!) and of the rest only East Lancashire
survives today under the same name.  The other thing they had in
common, was structural stress, and not just in the boardroom. The
frames of rear-engined chassis are prone to flex and structural
analysis was in its infancy in the 1960s. Most coachbuilders allowed
for this but suppliers to London Transport were told to attach the
body rigidly to the Merlin/Swift buses, London's buses were prone to
structural failures but so were many others, including some Bristol
REs.

As well as being less reliable and heavier on fuel than their
forebears, they also proved difficult and sometimes even dangerous
to handle.  Tom Dalton wrote movingly some years ago about his own
near-death experience in a Bristol RE. Personally I don't think
early radial tyres, then also new, would have helped.

The early post war half-cabs these buses replaced had set a gold
standard for reliability but, needing a two person crew were proving
impractical at a time of staff shortage. 1968's New Bus Grant
(initially a 25% subsidy per bus, later raised in 1971 to 50%) was
meant for the replacement of crew operated vehicles, but its effect
on the economics of bus purchase was that it became cheaper to
dispose of Rodliners, RUs, Panthers and Swifts when the initial
Certificate of Fitness expired and get a new Fleetline, AN68 or
National than rebuild the bus you had.  Often these buses were only
worth scrap value as the few independent fleets who ran bus services
were also making full use of New Bus Grant and major operators did
not want second-hand buses when they cold buy new. There were only
two major exceptions, Ulsterbus/Citybus and Chesterfield.

As a result, remarkably few of these buses survive, one of the most
troublesome but also most interesting and varied groups of classic
buses.
Article ends...
Tables soon!
stephen

The Daimler Roadliner was two years late into production, Jaguar's
plan to build the engine under licence failed and Cummins started to
produce it at its Shotts, Lanarkshire factory. The SRC6 chassis was
agreeably neat looking and PMT's first (2400EH, numbered SN1000)
earned Daimler an official letter of congratulation from the union
branch operating it. Maybe it was feather –bedded but it does not
seem to have discouraged PMT or anyone else from ordering the SRC6.
Why? Were the production versions inclined to fail sooner? Atkinson
of Preston used the same engine in motorway gritters for the
Ministry of Transport which were very hard-worked and reliable, but
non-stop motorway work is a different proposition to stop-start bus
work. The Roadliner's murky reputation began soon after production
started. 132 buses were sold to UK customers bodied by seven
Coachbuilders. Production had ceased by 1970.

East Lancashire and Neepsend's unlucky thirteen were three for
Eastbourne and ten for Chesterfield. Both fleets went on to buy
Panthers.

After the two-year delay PMT took twenty-three (out of an initial
production batch of forty-seven) with Marshall coachwork. Pretty
soon, PMT's mechanics were cursing the bus the platform staff had
praised. The next ten were deferred. As well as its 24 for PMT
Marshall also bodied the initial demonstrator.

The remaining 34 Roadliner buses for PMT were Plaxton Derwents. The
first twenty-four, like ten for West Riding and one for AA Motor
Services (Dodds) had Cummins V6-200 engines.  The last ten for PMT
and a Daimler demonstrator (which later went to Oxford) were the
only Roadliner buses fitted from new with the Perkins V8: 510 engine
of 170bhp. With 45 buses (and the lions share of coaches) to its
credit, Plaxton led the field in bodying the Roadliner.

Some Perkins V8s were fitted to other Roadliners after they were
built. Dennis and ERF used this engine in several hundred fire
engines where, normally fitted to a torque converter, it performed
well. But then again, full-tilt emergency call-out work is a
different proposition…

The balance of Belfast's 1968 intake were eighteen Potters bodied
Roadliners. A return to the Fleetline was on the cards.

Although Cummins were building a factory there Darlington's first
(1967) batch of twelve Roe bodied Roadliners were also their last. A
quantum leap from the preceding CCG5/Roe double-deckers, they were
followed by single-deck Fleetlines.

Strachans' eight Roadliners consisted of five for Wolverhampton and
three for Sunderland. This brought their total to Sunderland's
design to 80 buses- 48% of their output. One Wolverhampton bus is
preserved.

At the time Willowbrook did most of the Duple group's export
business. It bodied overseas Roadliners including 28 for Edmonton,
Alberta, Canada. However their only home market examples were eleven
for Bournemouth, where they offered stepless boarding like that
resorts Fleetlines and Atlanteans (even if the Royal Tigers and
Tiger Cubs they replaced worked rather better). One Bournemouth
Roadliner survives and an Edmonton example is believed extant too.

The Roadliner's reputation crumbling as examples arrived with
purchasers, Daimler's forward planners must have scratched their
heads for all of half a second before one of them remembered
Birmingham (as part of a standardisation attempt) had some lightly-
modified Fleetlines fitted with single deck bodies, these sat only
37, but the forthcoming 33ft model could be modified to enable
seating over the engine.  Thus in 1966 the SRG6 Fleetline was born.
It could not have been foreseen then that continuing problems with
the Roadliner would lead to a longer Fleetline that snapped the
bodies it carried, nor that the need for development cash in the
Jaguar Cars parent would lead to a takeover by British car giant
BMC, which was tottering itself; so much so the Government persuaded
Leyland Motor Corporation to buy it. By 1968 both the long Fleetline
(SRG6-36) and British Leyland had happened. 358 single-deck
Fleetlines were sold to 1973.

The SRG6-36 prototype carried a two-door panoramic window Alexander
W-type body. Alexander's other Fleetline single decks were also 36ft
dual door W-types. Twenty-five for Dundee, thirty-nine for the
Northern General group and nine for Yorkshire Traction had short
window bays. Twenty-one for PMT and one for City of Oxford were
panoramic like the prototype.

East Lancashire bodied nine 33ft SRG6s for Bury and five SRG6-36 for
Barrow. Within the aesthetic parameters of East Lancs' `style' of
the time Bury's were near top and Barrow's bottom of the scale.
Fowlers of Leyland were the bodybuilding subsidiary of Fishwick,
independent bus operator of the same town. They started in 1969 with
a body on the final PSUC1/11 Tiger Cub. This they followed with
three PSU4 Leopards and the final PDR1/3 Atlantean, their only
double-decker. All these were for Fishwick. Then they sold their
only body to an outside customer, this was a Seddon IV: 236 and
easily their best looking.  Finally and again for Fishwick they
bodied five Leyland 680-powered Daimler Fleetline SRL6-36, these
were also the last of their line.  Fowlers' bodies always looked
like a collection of bin-ends, job lots and room-sized remnants.
Anyone who calls the Leyland National `ugly' `unstyled',
or `utilitarian' should look at these Leyland products before
slurring Workington's finest.

Marshall bodied the initial twenty-four single-deck Fleetlines for
Birmingham. These were 31ft long 37-seaters and looked like cut-down
double decks. One is preserved. Birmingham went on to buy AEC Swifts
with both engine sizes and Strachans-bodied Ford R192s. Subsequent
Marshall Fleetlines were six SRG6-33 for South Shields, delivered to
Tyneside PTE, and forty-five SRG6-36 twelve to Darlington, three to
Yorkshire Traction and thirty for Maidstone & District. Unlike the
Birmingham buses these 51 later buses were dual-door.

Park Royal's sole batch of single-deck Fleetlines were thirty
SRG6LXB-36 with 45 seats and dual doors for Leeds. These were among
the first buses fitted with the 180bhp Gardner engine.  Park Royal
also bodied a lot of double-deck Fleetlines.

Pennine secured an order for only two Fleetlines. These were for
Halifax (109-110 KCP379-80G) their 33ft B45F bodies showed an
interesting mix of Pennine and Halifax styling.

Potters one batch of SRG6LX-36 were thirty for Belfast (Alexander
took over before they were built). After that the Northern Irish
capital went double-deck again for a while.

Roe's largest share of Fleetline single-decks was twenty-four SRG6LX-
36s for Darlington, with B45D bodies, one of which survives. Two
SRG6LX-33 B45F buses were sold to Huddersfield.

Willowbrook bodied the first Fleetline SRG6- four for Grimsby-
Cleethorpes in 1966-67, these and three 1968 buses for Burton-on-
Trent were the only examples of the 120bhp SRG6LW-33 built, one from
each fleet is preserved.  SRG6LX-33s were nine for Halifax, five for
Derby, four for Rochdale (including a former demonstrator) and two
for Rotherham. Northern and its associates had thirty-eight SRG6LX-
36s and Northampton ended a six-year order drought, recovering from
the end of CVG6 production, with twenty SRL6-36s, this was a Leyland
680-powered option available from 1970. The Road Transport Industry
Training Board also added two Willowbrook bodied SRG6-36 to their
Fleet of dedicated training vehicles.

It's clear that the Birmingham Fleetlines inspired Great Yarmouth's
Management whose latest double-deckers were Leyland Atlantean
PDR1/2s with Daimler Fleetline gearboxes and Albion Lowlander
axles.  They got Marshall to body three such as B37F saloons in
1967/8. Two of these survive. Like Birmingham, they then bought AEC
Swifts.

I imagine someone in Birkenhead's management, when talking to
Northern Counties about more double decks said something like "and
we'd like two singles on Atlantean too, but do the job properly."
Like SRG Fleetlines the Birkenhead Atlanteans had seating above the
engine.  They were both 33ft PDR2/1s to B40D layout and were
delivered to Merseyside PTE in 1970.

By this time folk at Portsmouth must have been kicking
themselves. "This is what we should have thought of when we ended up
getting Tiger Cubs, never mind faffing around with Leopards, Panther
Cubs and Swifts." So Portsmouth had twelve PDR2/1 with 33ft B40D
bodies by Pennine then returned to double-decker Atlanteans.

The Panther Cub was maybe not a bus Leyland's engineers wanted to
build, but Leyland's sales team promoted it heavily sending a
Strachans-bodied demonstrator round the country.

The second customer was Sunderland who had three bodied by Marshall
in 1965, they were Sunderland's first rear-engined saloons-117 were
to follow in the next nine years, no more of them Panther Cubs.
Marshall also bodied sixteen for East Yorkshire, twelve for
Portsmouth and four each for Oldham and Brighton; all forty-one were
to its standard outline.  Metro-Cammell bodied Portsmouth's other
fourteen. Park Royal completed its batch of twenty for Manchester in
1965 then built another four for that arch fan of Park Royal,
Stockton Corporation. Besides East Yorkshire the only other BET
customer for the Panther Cub was Thomas Bros of Port Talbot who had
three with Strachans bodies, which looked like scaled-down M&D
Panthers. Strachans also bodied three for Brighton Corporation and
the Leyland demonstrator, which was sold to Eastbourne. Warrington
had four with East Lancashire bodies (then switched to Bristol REs),
Ashton-under-Lyne also had two (between batches of Atlanteans) and
Middlesbrough's two had Northern Counties coachwork (they then
reverted to lowheight Fleetline double decks). Massey Brothers final
design before the Northern Counties takeover was on two Panther Cubs
for Wigan, one of which survives, but sadly not the one registered
EEK 1F. Ninety-seven Panther Cubs (including the demonstrator) sold
in the five years from 1964. Warrington, Manchester and Portsmouth
examples also survive.

If the Leyland Motor Corporation were disappointed in the Panther
and particularly its cub, they must have been happier with its
stable-mate from Southall. The AEC Swift sold an impressive 2,230.
Even if its reputation was tarnished by London Transport's 1,513
these owed at least part of their bad name to LT's structural,
mechanical and body layout preferences.  The Swift was top seller in
the municipal market, 587 against 416 REs and 413 Panthers, and also
sold to BET/NBC fleets and independents. The AH505 (8.2 litre)
engine outsold the AH691 (11.3 litre) and Swifts always seemed to do
well within sight of the sea. It attracted thirteen out of the
fifteen bodybuilders and continued in production until 1975.

Although all W-types, Alexander's production on Swift was notably
varied. These 105 buses were built for municipal, independent and
BET/NBC fleets with both lengths, three different front-end designs,
single and dual doors, panoramic and short windows, 505 and 691
engines. (See table 3) Aberdeen and Green Line examples are
preserved.

ECW's Twenty-two Swifts went to hometown Lowestoft (later Waveney
District) who had ten in 1969-73 and Nearby Great Yarmouth who had
twelve in 1973-4 (later buying Waveney's last two). All twenty-two
were B45D buses on 36ft 505-engined chassis.  Great Yarmouth's had
BET-style windscreens; Lowestoft's had flat screens. The Great
Yarmouth buses lasted a long time with their original owner. One
from each fleet survives.

East Lancashire's Swifts were built between 1967-75 but there
weren't that many of them. West Bridgeford had three, four went to
Southampton, five were for Ipswich and Grimsby-Cleethorpes had
three. All had 505 engines. Southampton's were 36ft, the rest 33ft.
West Bridgeford's and Grimsby-Cleethorpes had one door. The rest had
two.

The Marshall Swift story neither starts nor ends with the 324 10m
505s built to LT specification. A 1966 36ft demonstrator worked for
Ulsterbus alongside a Bristol RE. It later joined the Ulsterbus
fleet when they took over Coastal Bus Service of Portrush. Outside
London the most common Marshall Swift was the 36ft 505. Fifty-five
of these went to Blackpool; eighteen were ordered by Sunderland (and
delivered to Tyne & Wear PTE); five went to Bradford (with single
curvature windscreens which were also fitted to Blackpool's 1969
batch); these all had dual-doors; Similar single –door buses went to
South Wales (twelve), East Midland (ten), City of Oxford (nine) and
West Riding (six). Portsmouth followed its Panther Cubs with twelve
33ft dual door Marshall Swifts, St Helens established a fleet of
seventy-two similar buses and the Cambridge firm also bodied twenty-
six 691s with single door bodies for East Kent. One of these has
recently been restored. Also surviving are one St Helens and two
Blackpool Buses and a Marshall-bodied non-PSV Swift, a racing car
transporter built for Lotus.

MCW bodied 650 11m 691s and 200 10m 505s for London. They also did
thirty two-door 36ft 505s to a distinctive style for Leeds,
combining a BET front and an antipodean side elevation. There were
eighteen plain looking two-door 36ft buses for Birmingham (twelve
505s and six 691s). No `provincial' MCW Swifts survive.

Northern Counties bodied only nine Swifts. All had the 505 engine.
Nottingham's six had the BET-style windscreen, a high straight
waistrail and closely spaced window pillars-they were memorably
described in a Buses Annual (maybe 1978) as `unusually tall-
looking'. In 1975, when six years old, they went to Grimsby-
Cleethorpes (for the sea air).  Morecambe & Heysham had the other
three, which had large split-depth windows and deep, flat
windscreens. All nine were dual door. Neither sort still exists.

Park Royal built fifty 36ft 505 two-door buses for Leeds and forty
36ft 691s for Sheffield. Oh yes, they also did 324 10m 505s for
London Transport. Again, there are no non-London survivors.

Pennine, like their parent Seddon, were based in Oldham, which town
was mainly buying Leyland double-decks with Roe bodies and would do
to the end of their days, but they worked hard on neighbouring
Rochdale and received an order for fourteen 33ft 505 Swifts. The
last ten of these were delivered to SELNEC. Another seven rather
oddly styled Swifts (looking more NCME than Pennine) were sold to
Morecambe and Heysham. Neither sort survive.

Plaxton bodied two 36ft 505 Swifts with Derwent single-door bodies,
one each for Hutchings & Cornelius of Somerset and York Pullman. One
of these is now preserved.

Potters when not bodying Leopards for Ulsterbus built Fleetline
double-deckers for Belfast Corporation. When in 1968 that city
ordered 36 11m single decks Potters bodied them too. Eighteen of
them were Swift 691s.

Roe's Swifts included forty for Leeds, which were 36ft and dual-
door. A 36ft one-door bus went to York Pullman, Huddersfield had two
33ft one-door buses and Grimsby-Cleethorpes had nine with dual-door
33ft bodies.

Strachans started London's Swift story with fifteen 36ft 691s. They
also bodied eleven 36ft 505s with similar looking bodies; five were
for Wolverhampton (a major customer and six for Southampton (the
nearest municipal fleet to the factory).  Ten 36ft 505s went to
Sunderland, to that undertaking's style.

Willowbrook's Swifts were all 505 powered and all to the BET style.
Like Alexander it sold to BET/NBC, independent and municipals. 10m
dual-door examples went to Aberdare (six) and Ipswich (five). South
Wales (three), and Great Yarmouth (twenty-one) had 36ft dual-door
versions. The single door 36ft version went to City of Oxford (nine)
Red Rover, Aylesbury (two), Hutchison (two) and W.R. & P. Bingley
(one). Gelligaer had a single-door ex-demonstrator and two dual door
buses bought new that later had a door removed.

Whadham Stringer also bodied Swifts for British Overseas Airways
Corporation, one of which survives at the RAF Museum Hendon.  These
however were not road-legal having a large front-loading platform
and offside and nearside centre doors. As a result, these are not
included in the survey.

The Leyland Panther's 11-metre length reduced its appeal for urban
fleets and after 1967 the Bristol RE was available at 33ft with
Leyland 0600 or 0680 engine options (which were cheaper than the
standard Gardner.) This affected Panther sales and killed the
Panther Cub.  Burnley, Colne & Nelson went from 11m Panthers to 10m
Bristols; Lancaster followed its batch with Leopards. Even so the
Panther was third in overall sales and in sales to the municipals.
In comparison to the Leyland 0680 powered RE the 0600-engined
Panther was a very quiet bus. It was produced until 1972, the final
examples going to Preston Corporation and Tyneside PTE.

Although the Alexander W-type was the launch body on the Panther,
production was protracted and sales were Alexander's lowest on any
of the four chassis it bodied. Glasgow had sixteen between 1964-69;
the sole 1967 bus was its only two-door panoramic Panther. Newcastle
Corporation had fourteen, all dual door-with a mixture of short (the
first two) and panoramic (the rest) window bays, from 1967-9.
Tyneside PTE took a final five in 1972, these were single door
panoramic dual-purpose vehicles used to launch fastline limited stop
services: these soon outgrew the Panther's capacity. No W-type
Panther survives.

East Lancashire (and Neepsend) had a similarly thin time with the
Panther. Ten went to Chesterfield and thirteen to Eastbourne (both
following Roadliners).  Six went to Lancaster (between Titans and
Leopards). One of Eastbourne's is preserved.

Marshall of Cambridge was a relative newcomer to bus body building,
starting in 1960, but during the decade Willowbrook's parent Duple
stopped bus building at Burlingham and Metro-Cammell gained control
of Weymann and closed it. BET, keen to encourage competition in
supply quickly began to support Marshall whose standard bus offering
was to BET style, regardless of chassis or customer. Change was
heralded in 1967 however when Northern 2032 (ECN 32E) entered
service, this PSU3 Leopard had the prototype Camair body, a radical
new style designed to take BET into the seventies. Instead NBC
happened and BET had only twenty-eight further Camairs, all were on
Panthers, Twenty-five of these joined the prototype with the
Northern Group and the other three had a wandering first year.
Registered in 1971 by Stratford Blue neither they nor successor
Midland Red operated them and they began to earn money, a year old
and on their third coat of paint, with Preston. The remaining 102
Marshall Panthers were to (more-or-less) standard BET outline. East
Yorkshire had nineteen bus outline bodies on the PSUR1/2 `coach'
chassis and Ribble also had one of these, a 1964 Commercial Motor
Show exhibit.  West Riding had twenty-five single door 1967 PSUR1/1
buses. The others were dual door `bus' Panthers ordered by
municipals. Exeter ordered twenty, the last of which went to Devon
General. Preston had seventeen, Southport ten, Sunderland nine and
Oldham six. Bradford's five were the `or less' mentioned earlier as
they had single curvature windscreens and Bradford standard
destination gear. Marshall was the second most favoured body choice
on Panther. Southport and Exeter examples survive as non-psvs

All but one of Metro-Cammell's 156 Panthers were confined to
Lancashire. The odd one out was Manchester 100, burnt out before
delivery.  Manchester's remaining twenty-nine were so unpopular they
ended up being transported to Australia.  Liverpool had 110 to a
different style built from 1967-9 these were followed by Southport
(twelve to Manchester's style) and Preston (five to Liverpool's).
Liverpool's Panthers also travelled in later life, but only as far
as Chesterfield, Baslow (or Barnsley.) MCW bodied most Panthers and
Liverpool bought most Panthers. Liverpool and Preston buses survive.

The thirty-five Northern Counties Panthers for Lytham St Anne's
(three), Wigan (twelve), Burnley, Colne & Nelson and Chesterfield
(ten each) accounted for over half the Wigan bodybuilders rear-
engined single deck output which was itself much lower than that of
other leading coachbuilders.  Burnley's had BET style windscreens,
which were low-mounted and generally looked worse than the others
which had deep flat screens. Chesterfield's last is preserved.

If Alexander did poorly on the Panther what about Park Royal who
only bodied eleven for the home market! One was a Leyland
demonstrator later bought by Fishwick, the other ten went to Park
Royal loyalist Stockton Corporation.  They did get to do 200 left-
hand drive Panthers (and a right hand drive demonstrator) for
Stockholm though!

Pennine's fourteen Panthers were for Preston and delivered in
1971/2. Panthers were fourth choice for Pennine customers but only
Park Royal bodied fewer Panthers for the home market.

Plaxton's twelve Panthers all went to independents. There were nine
for West Riding in 1968-9 and three to King Alfred in 1971 of which
two are preserved. All were B52F buses to Derwent style, which on
the Panther seemed to have a dragster-like lean down toward the
front.

Roe bodied the balance of West Riding's Panther fleet with fifteen
built in 1967/8. Kingston-upon-Hull City Transport had twelve in
1964-6 with dual-doors and a stepped waistrail. Lincoln's twenty-
five, built 1967-71, had a single door and a straight waist like the
West Riding buses. One each from West Riding and Lincoln survive.

Strachan's ninety-seven Panthers were of two designs for two
operators. Sixty-seven were for Sunderland to that corporation's
B47D layout; the first of these is preserved. Liverpool and
Sunderland Panthers had a short wheelbase to increase entrance
width. The remainder of Strachan's Panthers were thirty troublesome
buses for Maidstone and District with BET windscreens and split-
depth side windows; one of these was preserved in the past. These
accounted for 58% of Strachans bodies on these chassis and made them
the third most popular coachbuilder on Panther.

Maidstone & District's first sixty-five Panthers had Willowbrook
bodies. So did a former Leyland demonstrator snapped up by Gelligaer
at the same time as a Swift.

The Bristol RE was the most popular single deck rear-engined chassis
of its era, with around 3500 low frame buses built until 1982.   Ten
UK coachbuilders bodied 3,375 of them.

Alexander's output on the low frame RE was to three different
styles. 91% were to a Potters design for Ulsterbus. The first twenty
were built under subcontract at Falkirk in 1968. The subsequent 600
for Ulsterbus and Citybus (the former Belfast Corporation) were
built at the former Potters works, by then Alexander (Belfast), from
1975-82. Forty-two RELL buses were built to the Y-type design. These
were thirty (RELL6G/DP49F) for North Western Road Car and twelve
(RELL6L/B49F) for Lincoln City Transport. The other four percent
were twenty Lancashire United Transport RESL6Gs with a version of
the W-type body to B42D layout. Alexander were the fourth most
successful coachbuilders on these eight chassis and the second most
popular on RE with roughly 19% of sales.

The most popular bus in the survey was the Eastern Coach Works
aluminium-framed body on the Bristol RE. None were sold to
independents but the SBG, with 12 RELL6G for Alexander (Fife) and
BET, with Forty RELL for Ribble, and twelve for East Midland, were
customers.  Almost a tenth of production went to municipals and one
PTE in 1967-75 (table 2) Almost 60% of these were RELLs and 87%, to
either length, had Leyland engines.  These and AEC Swifts for two
East Anglian corporations make ECW the most popular choice in the
municipal sector, with 14% of the market.

The most popular of the eight chassis for the East Lancashire steel
framed body was the RE, with sixty-eight bodies for seven municipal
fleets, all but Merthyr Tydfil were in North West England. This made
up 44% of ELC production on these chassis and meant they were the
fourth most popular choice on RE.

Marshall quickly became a favourite with the BET group of bus
companies.  As a result Marshall-bodied Bristol REs sold from 1968-
71 to Aldershot & District, East Midland, North Western, Ribble,
Southdown, South Wales and Western Welsh. There was a mix of
lengths, engine types and number of doors.  Southdown's included the
only UK market manual RE buses not bodied by ECW. The Bristol
Commercial Vehicle register website says `about ninety' were built,
but the total is in fact 245. This makes Marshall the third most
popular body choice on RE with a share of 7%.

MCW only built on one batch of Bristol RE, ten buses to Norman
Morton's design for Sunderland.  This design was only otherwise
built by Strachans. After ten years' on Wearside most of these buses
left for further service with Burnley & Pendle. This was the least
numerous body on RE.

Only two customers chose Northern Counties bodies on their REs. SHMD
had six RESL6G and Burnley, Colne and Nelson five on RESL6L. Eleven
was the second smallest body total on RE.

Park Royal was a favoured supplier to the larger `corporation'
fleets, like MCW, whilst Northern Counties and East Lancs tended
(with exceptions) to supply the small to medium size fleets. Park
Royal's one batch of RE, twenty-five RELL6G for Liverpool, make its
body the seventh most numerous make on this chassis.

Pennine Coachcraft of Oldham was a subsidiary of commercial-vehicle
builder Seddon and at this time competed aggressively, targeting
municipal company and independent fleets.  They were rewarded with
the fifth largest share on RE. Twenty-eight were RELL6G to the
distinctive Reading Corporation design, whilst ten for Burnley Colne
and Nelson and eight for Warrington, on RESL6L, had the standard
Pennine look, both were orders transferred in 1971 from East
Lancashire, who had suffered a fire.

Plaxton's thirty-five home market RE buses were all sold to
independents. West Riding took five B52F Derwents and Lancashire
United had thirty on RESL6G, twenty B42D buses in 1967/8 and ten
DP41F semi-coaches in 1974. These were all to the flat-screen
Highway style.

Strachans' fourteen REs were the balance of Reading's fleet of forty-
two and were to that operator's design. Besides Reading, Warrington
was the only other customer for the short-wheelbase RELL-6 type,
having two RELL6L with East Lancashire bodies in 1969. No MCW or
Plaxton examples survive, but examples of all the other types are
preserved.

The forgotten Generation: British Low-Entry Single-deckers of the
1960s

How did the early rear-engined single-deckers affect you?

If you were in the majority, you'd have been wafted from your
village or town to a local commercial centre on one, finding it more
spacious and comfortable than its predecessors as it stopped along
the way at every small hamlet.

However, if you were in the second largest group you could have been
stuck with around fifty other people sitting and standing inside an
immobile one in say, Penge, Southgate or Sidcup, because: a), the
body had fractured the frame(or vice versa); b), engine, radiator,
half shaft or crown wheel had exploded because the automatic gearbox
did even fully-laden hill starts in second gear; c), the sixpenny
slot of the automatic ticket machine had jammed.

Alternatively, maybe you rode on futuristic urban examples. Were you
an overjoyed driver who congratulated the manufacturer? Or were you
a disgruntled mechanic, whose thoughts on the builders of the things
should not be printed!

Whoever you were there were over seven thousand of the things, they
ran for all sectors of the industry but in widely varied amounts,
and only in parts of Scotland could they be avoided totally. Today,
barely one percent survives in preservation, and memories of these
buses are fading.

There were eight chassis bodied by fifteen coachbuilders, the
purpose of this article is to look in detail at who built what for
whom, but first two myths need demolishing.

The first generation were anything but.

It's a term of convenience, tying them in with the early rear-
engined double-deckers to which they were more or less related and
distinguishing them from the Leyland National and its less
successful competitors in the 1970s and into the 1980s. First
generation, however, they were not, not in the world, not even in
the UK.

At the beginning of the last century the `horseless omnibus'
had the motor where the horse had been: out in front. By 1910
though, the Daimler Motor Company had built two double-deckers to a
Frederick Lanchester design with twin side-mounted engines (amongst
other novelties). As Alan Townsin recounts, "Further progress… was
halted by difficulty over a patent."

Similarities were apparent in the 1927 Faegol Twin Coach  (again,
two side-mounted power units) but they obtained a US patent on the
side-engined layout and defended it vigorously. The Twin Coach
allowed for a front (driver-controlled) entrance, a feature other
builders sought to emulate.  By the mid 1930s White had developed a
mid-underfloor layout, whilst Mack and General Motors standardised
on a transverse rear-engined design.

These developments were followed in Mainland Europe and in the UK.
By the mid 1930s Leyland tested a prototype single deck with
transverse rear-engine and Midland Red also built prototype coaches
so fitted.  In 1938 Leyland and London Transport started work on a
version of the lightweight Cub chassis, with longitudinal rear-
engine and independent rear suspension. The forty-nine CR class
vehicles built to 1940 were expensive one-man-operated 20-seaters,
never properly developed and spent most of their LT careers out of
service.

Mid-underfloor vehicles were ready at AEC and Leyland (and Tilling
Stevens) at the outbreak of World War II but the conflict killed
commercial firms interest in building them until 1949/50. No one in
Britain but Leyland and London Transport had produced rear engined
single decks. Donald Sinclair had the Midland Red prototypes rebuilt
from rear-engined to underfloor-engined design, building production
buses so fitted from 1946.

Foden, like other manufacturers at the end of the War built its
passenger chassis to front-engined forward control layout, as was
the convention for full sized buses. When its competitors launched
mid-underfloor engined buses, Foden instead went for a transverse
rear-engined layout, maybe it was inspired by US practice but it
saved them the cost of developing a horizontal version of their own
engine and allowed them to retain their favoured cruciform chassis.
It sold reasonably in the UK & Overseas from 1951-6 but only one
home-market example was bodied as a bus. Foden's four-speed
sliding mesh gearbox must have been hard enough to use on coach duty.

To be continued,
Stephen

Over the next few days I plan to post to the group an article and 3
tables about the rear -engined single deck buses in the UK from 1962-
69.  This is a draft and I would like poeple's opinion advice and
corrections.

All the best

Stephen

Okay there is a blank version of this message floating about and I
don`t know why. I am one of a group who have recently purchased an ex
Strathclyde Atlantean. Are there any other owners of Atlanteans or
former Glasgow buses out there. Also are there any old Glasgow
Atlanteans out there which no one knows about. There are quite a few
listed on the Atlantean website, but the number of PDRs in
preservation is currently three, LA 1/320 and 510 and the latter is
being held together by the rust at the moment.There is rumoured to be
an `E` plate in England, can anyone confirm this? Is the `J` plate
that was in Wales still in a reasonable condition.

    On a slightly different note, are there any former GGPTE MCW
Metropolitans still in existance. The smart money in Glasgow is that
they are all gone, does anyone know different.

Having spent a lot of time away from the bus world in order to get my
life back into some sort of semblance of normality. The society still
owns a number of VR's, to whit HKE680L, NCD559M, PKG587M, HUD478R,
UGR694 & 698R and VEX298X.
All are in various degrees of disorder, but both NCD559M & PKG587M
have seen some fairly intensive work undetaken on them, NCD'd
injector pump being rebuilt & PKG's defective gearbox being replaced.
Both are obvious positive steps forward. Work is also being
undertaken on 694 & 698 in order to get them roadworthy again.
Three VR's are missing from this list, GBF79N, GLJ467N & LOD727P. GBF
was stripped for spares by Nigel & Russell Kirk & friends, they had
lent the society the money to purchase her for preservation.
Unfortunately (and yet again!) various other parties who had promised
mountains of cash failed to do so & the Kirk's eventually lost
patience awaiting repayments and GBF was cannabalised. Its a major
loss as 1) The major chassis defects the "engineer" claimed to have
found turned out to be two rotten bolts! 2) They didn't bother to
contact me to advise me of the fact they intended to recxlaim GBF
otherwise she might not of been cannabalised. Thus GBF79N RIP. It
should be noted that the Kirk brothers were instrumental in the
rescue of PKG from the breakers, though they did not have any direct
financial input they still poccess the log book which the society
needs urgently & thus I hope they will pass it down the line very
soon. LOD727P was reclaimed by West Kent Coach Sales, yet again
various parties offered the money, & yet again failed to! So Stuart
Gilkes took LOD back & as far as I am aware she was sold to the
Barnsley breakers, another excellent preservation project lost.
GLJ467N is my VR, I put the money up for it & thus I personally
retain ownership of it.
The biggest problem has been lack of newsletter/magazine. Rob Sly had
to give up as editor as his work load became excessive, I took over
the mantle & did my best to keep it up & running. I unfortunately as
a result of that, work pressures & various riots in my personal life
found it impossible to continue after November 2000. I did my
damndest to find a replacement editor but its amazing how all those
people who at first offer assistance suddenly melt away! Thus the
society desperately needs a newsletter editor, several members & non-
members have offered to assist in the relaunch of the society but no-
one yet has offered to undertake the newsletter, doen't need to be
one person, a team would be more than welcome.
So over to you lot out there, we need the asistance, members are
offering to pay subscriptions to get the society moving again so
people please help if you can.
I can be reached by email at garethcrowther1@...

--- In therearenginedbusclub@..., tellietubbie_uk
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> --- In therearenginedbusclub@..., "andybongosco
> <andybongosco@y...>" <andybongosco@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >    I am hoping that tellietubby uk, ( hope that`s right), is
> reading
> > this or anybody else who may know the answers that I am looking
> for.
> >  In 1986 London Country bought 31 Alexander bodied Atlanteans
from
> > Strathclyde PTE. I know the buses involved and I know that they
> > received fleetnumbers AN 306-37. I don`t know which buses match
> which
> > fleetnumbers though, can anybody help? Also can anyone provide
the
> > full list of 6xx fleetnumbers that the buses at Kentish Bus
> received?
> > Any other interesting info involving these buses will be greatly
> > received.
> >                           Thanks,
> >
>
>
>
>
> hi andy
> i do have some info on the buses you are intrested in so i shall
dig
> it out tonight and send what info i have on them
> tellietubbie_uk

    Hi tellietubbie_uk
    Thanks for replying to my original message, I have been busy with
a few other things of late and this is the first time I have been in
this group for a few weeks. If you could still get in touch with me
that would be great. I can also be e-mailed direct at
gctkcb@.... ,that applies to anyone else reading this message
that might have relevant information.
                             Thanks,
                             Andy

--- In therearenginedbusclub@..., "andybongosco
<andybongosco@y...>" <andybongosco@y...> wrote:
>
>
>    I am hoping that tellietubby uk, ( hope that`s right), is
reading
> this or anybody else who may know the answers that I am looking
for.
>  In 1986 London Country bought 31 Alexander bodied Atlanteans from
> Strathclyde PTE. I know the buses involved and I know that they
> received fleetnumbers AN 306-37. I don`t know which buses match
which
> fleetnumbers though, can anybody help? Also can anyone provide the
> full list of 6xx fleetnumbers that the buses at Kentish Bus
received?
> Any other interesting info involving these buses will be greatly
> received.
>                           Thanks,
>




hi andy
i do have some info on the buses you are intrested in so i shall dig
it out tonight and send what info i have on them
tellietubbie_uk

I am hoping that tellietubby uk, ( hope that`s right), is reading
this or anybody else who may know the answers that I am looking for.
  In 1986 London Country bought 31 Alexander bodied Atlanteans from
Strathclyde PTE. I know the buses involved and I know that they
received fleetnumbers AN 306-37. I don`t know which buses match which
fleetnumbers though, can anybody help? Also can anyone provide the
full list of 6xx fleetnumbers that the buses at Kentish Bus received?
Any other interesting info involving these buses will be greatly
received.
                           Thanks,
                            Andy.

Hi, I am new to this Group.
      Just to let you know that I have purchased
      SCH116X. The LAST OFFICIAL FLEETLINE for
      preservation. It was last with Brylaine,
      and is in fairly good shape.
      As the sister SCH117X is already preserved,
      I may keep this in Brylaine colours.

   Eddie Roberts


sch116x@...