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BBWWIIB stand size

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  • gbowwii
    A friend and I are debating what each stand is supposed to represent. I pointed to Rule 2.1: 2.1 Game Scales There are two game scales, battalion and
    Message 1 of 9 , 31 Jul
      A friend and I are debating what each stand is supposed to represent. I pointed to Rule 2.1:
      "2.1 Game Scales
      There are two game scales, battalion and regimental scale where each unit base generally represents a battalion or regiment. However, some units will have smaller bases representing companies or battalions respectively."

      To me it seems apparent that each stand is to represent either a battalion or regiment (although perhaps a few smaller attached stands).

      He points to the Japanese scenario where the stands appear to be companies:

      "Check out this scenario that is posted on his website. Japanese infantry battalions are 6 stands. I would think they are companies."


      Either the Japanese scenario is an odd ball or I am misinterpreting what a unit "base" is (I thought that was a stand).


      Would Bob or another clarify?


      Thanks!


      PS The other oddity, in my mind is that the turns are only 1 or 2 hours. Frank Chadwick's battalion per stand game has 2 day turns and 1 night turn. So that's an 8x difference (@1 hr/turn; I understood the regt/stand game has 2 hour turns).

    • Bob Mackenzie
      Hi Thanks for taking an interest in the rules. In the Beta rules - Figure 4 on Page 10 has the correct terminology. A base has a number of stands on it, the
      Message 2 of 9 , 31 Jul
        Hi

        Thanks for taking an interest in the rules.

        In the Beta rules - Figure 4 on Page 10 has the correct terminology. A
        base has a number of stands on it, the stands are usually individual
        tank models or a small group of infantry figures

        A large base can represent either a battalion or a regiment, depending
        on the scale of the game. Once the game scale is decided all bases will
        be the same type, battalion or regiment. However for the "battalion"
        scale some of the "battalions" may be understrength regiments. In the
        Kormoron scenario, the 684th Rifle Regiment is a good example of this.
        Indeed in the Komoron scenario the Soviet tank brigades are so
        understrength the are represented as a "battalion" base.

        At the battalion scale there are small bases representing some
        specialist companies, at the regimental scale small bases would
        represent specialist battalions.

        Its worth noting that to date all the scenarios on my website are
        battalion scale.

        In the Nomonhan scenario Japanese tank regiments, much like British tank
        regiments in WW2 are the same size as everyone else's battalions, thus
        are represented by a single battalion base. So Nomonhan is a battalion
        scale game. The Japanese infantry battalions are standard sized, full
        strength, infantry battalions on a battalion base

        In summary, the approach of the game is consistent, but real world
        militaries are not consistent in the labelling of formations and this is
        further confused by the presence of very much understrength units.

        Hopefully I've been clear, but if not please let me know

        Cheers


        Bob
      • Bob Mackenzie
        ... hours. Frank Chadwick s battalion per stand game has 2 day turns and 1 night turn. So that s an 8x difference (@1 hr/turn; I understood the regt/stand game
        Message 3 of 9 , 1 Aug 00:11
          >PS The other oddity, in my mind is that the turns are only 1 or 2
          hours. Frank Chadwick's battalion per stand game has 2 day turns and 1
          night turn. So that's an 8x difference (@1 hr/turn; I understood the
          regt/stand game has 2 hour turns).

          Hi


          It is interesting. I've not had the privilege of seeing Frank's rules,
          though I have huge respect for him as a games designer. Game turn length
          interacts with ground scale, move distances and lethality. If those
          aspects are different in Frank's rules then its natural the turn lengths
          will be different.

          If you have the time and inclination it would be interesting to play the
          same scenario several times in each set of rules and see which set on
          average gets closest to the historical outcome in terms of casualties
          caused and distance advanced. Given the disparity in turn length playing
          the scenarios under Frank's rules shouldn't take long compared to BBWW2B :)

          Cheers


          Bob
        • vtsaogames
          My two cents: it sounds like there should be one term for large bases and another for small ones (elements?). So a battalion base could contain elements for
          Message 4 of 9 , 1 Aug 06:46
            My two cents: it sounds like there should be one term for large bases and another for small ones (elements?).

            So a battalion base could contain elements for specialist sub-units, etc. This is just a question of nomenclature. When writing rules (several sets that have never been published) I try to keep nomenclature consistent to avoid confusing the reader. Your mileage may vary.
          • gbowwii
            Thanks Bob! You wrote it clearly enough. I really like the idea of having strength points being represented by individual models* to avoid needing rosters.
            Message 5 of 9 , 1 Aug 17:51
              Thanks Bob!

              You wrote it clearly enough. I really like the idea of having "strength points" being represented by individual models* to avoid needing rosters. Or the alternative is even worse: the battalion being either 100% or eliminated (or otherwise "under the weather").

              *Presumably the models being on steel stands whereas the big battalion base is magnetic... or vice versa.
            • gbowwii
              Yes, that would be a good test. The feel of the game is bound to be very different. Incidentally, when looking into new rules sets, one of the first things I
              Message 6 of 9 , 1 Aug 18:10
                Yes, that would be a good test. The feel of the game is bound to be very different.

                Incidentally, when looking into new rules sets, one of the first things I look at are scales: ground scale, time per turn and what the typical stand represents. But there are 2 very different approaches that people use when describing their games:

                1. What each base (or stand which may be US English for base!) represents (as you do)
                2. What a maneuver element size is

                But the 2nd approach can be confusing. For example, is Command Decision a game with Company maneuver elements each made up of Platoons that move together (usually) or a game of Battalions made up of several companies? The confusion comes in because the person writing the summary of the game may be trying get across what each player is typically going to command... which is a bit arbitrary.

                My preference varies by my priority:

                A. Command Decision for intricacy and variety of stand types; drawback is that a game is about no more than several hours of a battle — unless playing a campaign over multiple gaming days

                B. Great Battles of WWI for multi-day battles in a logistical context in one gaming day; drawback being that the stand types have less variety often being compiled of numerous weapon types.

                C. Still looking at the battalion/regiment per stand sort of rules as it represents battles that are most typically relayed in historical accounts but could be the basis for fighting a given lower level battle in CD or GB; drawback being that many such rule sets have a boardgame feel and so your partial elimination approach mitigates that.
              • Bob Mackenzie
                *Presumably the models being on steel stands whereas the big battalion base is magnetic... or vice versa. Hi Nothing more sophisticated than gravity holds the
                Message 7 of 9 , 1 Aug 23:37
                  *Presumably the models being on steel stands whereas the big battalion
                  base is magnetic... or vice versa.


                  Hi

                  Nothing more sophisticated than gravity holds the stands to the base.
                  This generally works but you many need to do a little tidying up of the
                  arrangement of the stands on the base every now and again. You can do
                  that while your opponent is moving his stuff. It helps that the bases
                  are much bigger than the stands so its rare any stand takes a tumble.

                  Cheers


                  Bob
                • Bob Mackenzie
                  Hi gbowwii I m a big fan of CD too, though I find it needs a few house rules. If find its time scale is off and 10-12 turns are about right to represent a
                  Message 8 of 9 , 2 Aug 11:44
                    Hi gbowwii

                    I'm a big fan of CD too, though I find it needs a few house rules. If
                    find its time scale is off and 10-12 turns are about right to represent
                    a day's action, so you can fight a days battle, though it will take most
                    of a real world day to do so. IMO CD's infantry combat is too lethal and
                    so is the tank combat if tanks get within 6"

                    To convert BBWW2B to CD is a fairly simple conversion (from battalion scale)

                    Each BBWW2B vehicle becomes 2 CD vehicles
                    Each pair of BBWW2 infantry stands becomes three CD stands
                    Each BBWW2B artillery stand becomes one CD artillery piece

                    Cheers

                    Bob


                    My preference varies by my priority:

                    A. Command Decision for intricacy and variety of stand types; drawback
                    is that a game is about no more than several hours of a battle — unless
                    playing a campaign over multiple gaming days

                    B. Great Battles of WWI for multi-day battles in a logistical context in
                    one gaming day; drawback being that the stand types have less variety
                    often being compiled of numerous weapon types.

                    C. Still looking at the battalion/regiment per stand sort of rules as it
                    represents battles that are most typically relayed in historical
                    accounts but could be the basis for fighting a given lower level battle
                    in CD or GB; drawback being that many such rule sets have a boardgame
                    feel and so your partial elimination approach mitigates that.
                  • Mike Hert
                    That s how we base for BBWW2 in southern Indiana. I originally thought I would need to use glue or putty to hold the miniatures on to the 3 x3 bases, but that
                    Message 9 of 9 , 2 Aug 12:34
                      That's how we base for BBWW2 in southern Indiana. I originally thought I would need to use glue or putty to hold the miniatures on to the 3"x3" bases, but that has not been the case.

                      Mike

                      On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 2:37 AM, Bob Mackenzie bob_mackenzie@... [BBB_wargames] <BBB_wargames@...> wrote:
                       


                      *Presumably the models being on steel stands whereas the big battalion
                      base is magnetic... or vice versa.

                      Hi

                      Nothing more sophisticated than gravity holds the stands to the base.
                      This generally works but you many need to do a little tidying up of the
                      arrangement of the stands on the base every now and again. You can do
                      that while your opponent is moving his stuff. It helps that the bases
                      are much bigger than the stands so its rare any stand takes a tumble.

                      Cheers

                      Bob


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