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Re: [MVDincavaliers] Re: Now my little Quintilla seems to have Syringomyelia in addition to MVD

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  • Elaine Ross
    Our Lucy has some weakness in her hind quarters as well - we saw a physio about this last week and got exercises. I know that muscle wastage is a problem in
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 1, 2008
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      Our Lucy has some weakness in her hind quarters as well - we saw a physio about this last week and got exercises.  I know that muscle wastage is a problem in advanced MVD (and so is poor circulation, which could lead to weakness in the hind quarters as they are furthest from her heart) and she's been in CHF for 2.5 years, she's 11 on 16th December.  She also has significant twitching of back legs but the physio assures me it's a muscle response and not a pain response.  I do massage on her daily to keep the muscles relaxed (I bought a book on it to show me basic techniques - nothing difficult or advanced, just basic massage) and it seems to help her a little.
       
      As for the drugs - just make sure the vet keeps an eye on her kidney levels - we were told that even if Lucy was in pain, they couldn't give her any more drugs as her kidneys were under enough strain as it is with the diuretics (her levels are still normal at the moment, but any additional drugs might tip them over the edge).  Just something to watch out for.
       
      I'm wary of the SM diagnosis ... I don't know much about it but it strikes me as odd that it would start at age 12.  I always thought it would be something that would be more likely to start in adolescence when the dog is still growing.  But as I said, I know very little about that - those are just my layman's assumptions!
       
      Even if you can't afford the MRI, perhaps you could have a chat with a neurologist (if your vet has a relationship with one) - I'd be wary of a vet diagnosing SM without neurologist advice, much like MVD without a cardiologist, if that makes sense.  It's a big diagnosis to make and as the evidence doesn't seem conclusive, I'd want a second opinion (especially as your vet has already said he hasn't come across it before).
       
      JMO.
       
      Elaine (& Lucy)
       
    • Carol
      Thank you Elaine - that makes sense. I will say that my vet didn t say he felt it was absolutely SM, he actually said that it presented like COMS but he needed
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 1, 2008
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        Thank you Elaine - that makes sense. I will say that my vet didn't
        say he felt it was absolutely SM, he actually said that it presented
        like COMS but he needed to learn more about it. He admitted that he's
        not a neurologist, so that's good advice to try to talk to one next.

        Tilla is not in CHF and hasn't had fluid buildup at all to need
        laxix, so are you suggesting that the murmer itself is considered
        advanced enough MVD to contribute to symptoms like this?


        I will keep you posted and appreciate all the ideas and suggestions.

        Carol






        --- In MVDincavaliers@..., "Elaine Ross"
        <eross1810@...> wrote:
        >
        > Our Lucy has some weakness in her hind quarters as well - we saw a
        physio
        > about this last week and got exercises. I know that muscle wastage
        is a
        > problem in advanced MVD (and so is poor circulation, which could
        lead to
        > weakness in the hind quarters as they are furthest from her heart)
        and she's
        > been in CHF for 2.5 years, she's 11 on 16th December. She also has
        > significant twitching of back legs but the physio assures me it's a
        muscle
        > response and not a pain response. I do massage on her daily to
        keep the
        > muscles relaxed (I bought a book on it to show me basic techniques -
        nothing
        > difficult or advanced, just basic massage) and it seems to help her
        a
        > little.
        >
        > As for the drugs - just make sure the vet keeps an eye on her
        kidney levels
        > - we were told that even if Lucy was in pain, they couldn't give
        her any
        > more drugs as her kidneys were under enough strain as it is with the
        > diuretics (her levels are still normal at the moment, but any
        additional
        > drugs might tip them over the edge). Just something to watch out
        for.
        >
        > I'm wary of the SM diagnosis ... I don't know much about it but it
        strikes
        > me as odd that it would start at age 12. I always thought it would
        be
        > something that would be more likely to start in adolescence when
        the dog is
        > still growing. But as I said, I know very little about that -
        those are
        > just my layman's assumptions!
        >
        > Even if you can't afford the MRI, perhaps you could have a chat
        with a
        > neurologist (if your vet has a relationship with one) - I'd be wary
        of a vet
        > diagnosing SM without neurologist advice, much like MVD without a
        > cardiologist, if that makes sense. It's a big diagnosis to make
        and as the
        > evidence doesn't seem conclusive, I'd want a second opinion
        (especially as
        > your vet has already said he hasn't come across it before).
        >
        > JMO.
        >
        > Elaine (& Lucy)
        >
      • Rod Russell
        I agree with what Elaine has written on this. We also have found that acupuncture helps strengthen our MVD dogs hind legs when this problem appears. I don t
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 1, 2008
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          I agree with what Elaine has written on this. We also have found that
          acupuncture helps strengthen our MVD dogs' hind legs when this problem
          appears.

          I don't think hindquarter weakness necessarily requires a direct
          relation with fluid build up, but I suspect that Tilla has an enlarged
          heart. As Elaine explained, when the heart weakens and cannot pump
          enough blood to support all parts of the body, the body focuses on
          supporting the vital organs, and often the extremities end up deprived
          of as much blood as they need to function properly.

          As for what drugs to continue or to start, we leave that question to
          the vets, although we consult with a couple of licensed vets who also
          treat holistically, and we often give our MVD dogs prescribed
          homeopathics and homotoxicology remedies, as well as acupuncture.

          Rod Russell
          Orlando, Florida USSA
        • Carol
          Rod & Elaine, thanks so much for your feedback. I had a long talk last night with the vet who read everything I sent him from here and Cavalier Health. He
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 2, 2008
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            Rod & Elaine, thanks so much for your feedback. I had a long talk last
            night with the vet who read everything I sent him from here and
            Cavalier Health.

            He agrees that Tilla's heart is probably most definitly enlarged with
            and we realized we hadn't done a chest xray in over a year. The last
            xray was her spine in August. He says that is certainly a possibility
            for the weak hindquarters but he reminded me that it looked like her
            front legs were weak as well and that's why he thought it was
            neurological. Now whether that's SM or something else, we won't know
            unless we get the MRI.

            I live in Omaha now and the closest place to get an MRI is Kansas City.

            Thursday he'll do the chest Xray and he was also not familiar with the
            inner ear mucous plug so he will look for that as a possibilty as well.
            He does know of someone who does accupuncture for pets here, but she's
            moved her practice so he's going to find her location now. I have
            personally had accupuncture often and know it can be very effective.

            My concern and his as well since he's seen Tilla walk - is that when
            she falls, she can't get up sometimes and that's happening more and
            more often. This morning after heartily eating her breakfast, she just
            laid on the kitchen floor (which is hardwood) until I picked her up and
            put on the carpet in the living room.

            So I don't know - is that affecting her quality of life to have to be
            carried from room to room when she can't get up? I agree she doesn't
            seem to be in pain and is a happy little girl right now having her ears
            chewed on again by my youngster Jasper.

            Thanks for listening and sharing ideas and your experience. While my
            vet Dr. Kroeger hasn't treated a cavalier with SM, I really respect
            this guy because he is always open to learning and readily admits what
            he doesn't know. While we don't have a cardiologist or neurologist here
            in Omaha, he told me that there is as board certified internist vet who
            I might want to consider taking her to, but I can't see how that could
            help any more than what he's doing.

            Carol
          • Mary
            Hi, Carol. So sorry about your baby. Our Cocker Spaniel also experienced the limb weakness when he was in advanced stages of CHF (age 14!) and could not right
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 2, 2008
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              Hi, Carol. So sorry about your baby. Our Cocker Spaniel also
              experienced the limb weakness when he was in advanced stages of CHF
              (age 14!) and could not right himself or get up easily on our sheet
              flooring. We bought a long, long run of vinyl runner (like one puts on
              carpet, but without the little plastic prong things). It has a
              somewhat textured surface and it made our boy's life must easier for
              him. Even putting down heavy weight throw rugs on your hardwood
              surface might help him get footing.

              Best wishes,
              Mary
            • Terri Davis
              Carol, I pick up Roxie and carry her around much of the time and I don t think it s a big deal.  Of course she s little so it s not a strain or anything.  I
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 2, 2008
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                Carol, I pick up Roxie and carry her around much of the time and I don't think
                it's a big deal.  Of course she's little so it's not a strain or anything.  I wouldn't
                think a thing of picking her up and putting her on the carpet.  We'll probably
                ALL need to walk on carpet ourselves in a few years. (My grandma was always
                afraid she'd lose her balance and fall on her tile floor so she just carpeted right
                over it!)
                Terri

                --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Carol <tocarol@...> wrote:
                From: Carol <tocarol@...>
                Subject: [MVDincavaliers] Re: Now my little Quintilla seems to have Syringomyelia in addition to MVD
                To: MVDincavaliers@...
                Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 8:38 AM

                Rod & Elaine, thanks so much for your feedback. I had a long talk last
                night with the vet who read everything I sent him from here and
                Cavalier Health.

                He agrees that Tilla's heart is probably most definitly enlarged with
                and we realized we hadn't done a chest xray in over a year. The last
                xray was her spine in August. He says that is certainly a possibility
                for the weak hindquarters but he reminded me that it looked like her
                front legs were weak as well and that's why he thought it was
                neurological. Now whether that's SM or something else, we won't know
                unless we get the MRI.

                I live in Omaha now and the closest place to get an MRI is Kansas City.

                Thursday he'll do the chest Xray and he was also not familiar with the
                inner ear mucous plug so he will look for that as a possibilty as well.
                He does know of someone who does accupuncture for pets here, but she's
                moved her practice so he's going to find her location now. I have
                personally had accupuncture often and know it can be very effective.

                My concern and his as well since he's seen Tilla walk - is that when
                she falls, she can't get up sometimes and that's happening more and
                more often. This morning after heartily eating her breakfast, she just
                laid on the kitchen floor (which is hardwood) until I picked her up and
                put on the carpet in the living room.

                So I don't know - is that affecting her quality of life to have to be
                carried from room to room when she can't get up? I agree she doesn't
                seem to be in pain and is a happy little girl right now having her ears
                chewed on again by my youngster Jasper.

                Thanks for listening and sharing ideas and your experience. While my
                vet Dr. Kroeger hasn't treated a cavalier with SM, I really respect
                this guy because he is always open to learning and readily admits what
                he doesn't know. While we don't have a cardiologist or neurologist here
                in Omaha, he told me that there is as board certified internist vet who
                I might want to consider taking her to, but I can't see how that could
                help any more than what he's doing.

                Carol


              • Carol
                Mary, thank you for the great idea about the vinyl runner. I ll look for one especially for my kitchen. Fortunately, the stairs that lead down to my lower
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 2, 2008
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                  Mary, thank you for the great idea about the vinyl runner. I'll look
                  for one' especially for my kitchen. Fortunately, the stairs that lead
                  down to my lower level and then out to my patio are are carpeted and
                  it's soft carpeting. Not only is she able to get her balance easier
                  but when she does take a spill; she's never hurt.

                  Terri, I will carry her wherever she wants. She is a little heavy -
                  she's a chunky 20 lbs. and I'm still sort of recovering from breast
                  cancer surgery and have a bad knee. I'm not complaining, I just
                  sometimes worry that if I lean over the wrong way I might drop her.

                  Tilla goes in and out of the rear legs collapsing. Once we get her
                  downstairs to go out - she walks around outside pretty well and then
                  seems to actually trot coming back in.





                  --- In MVDincavaliers@..., "Mary"
                  <cavaliersarekings@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi, Carol. So sorry about your baby. Our Cocker Spaniel also
                  > experienced the limb weakness when he was in advanced stages of CHF
                  > (age 14!) and could not right himself or get up easily on our sheet
                  > flooring. We bought a long, long run of vinyl runner (like one puts
                  on
                  > carpet, but without the little plastic prong things). It has a
                  > somewhat textured surface and it made our boy's life must easier
                  for
                  > him. Even putting down heavy weight throw rugs on your hardwood
                  > surface might help him get footing.
                  >
                  > Best wishes,
                  > Mary
                  >
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