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83 528E

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  • elswwjd316
    Have completed converting the car from automatic to manual 5 speed. Ignition timing is still off after replacing both sensors on bell housing and having them
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 16, 2010
      Have completed converting the car from automatic to manual 5 speed. Ignition timing is still off after replacing both sensors on bell housing and having them set by a shop. Low power, hard starting and occasional backfire.....
    • Gil Thereault
      This may sound stupid.  The first thing come to mind the automatic trans has a separate computer that is still hooked up??  Unless one of the two sensors are
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 16, 2010
        This may sound stupid.  The first thing come to mind the automatic trans has a separate computer that is still hooked up??  Unless one of the two sensors are bad. Swapping out these may also rule out things.




        --- On Mon, 8/16/10, elswwjd316 <lone.antelope.ranch@...> wrote:

        From: elswwjd316 <lone.antelope.ranch@...>
        Subject: [bmw e28] 83 528E
        To: bmwe28@...
        Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 1:36 PM

        Have completed converting the car from automatic to manual 5 speed. Ignition timing is still off after replacing both sensors on bell housing and having them set by a shop. Low power, hard starting and occasional backfire.....



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jeff Schlenker
        The fact that it runs means the TDC sensor is functional. Either the engine speed sensor is bad or the wiring is bad, or that pin on the computer is fried, or
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 17, 2010
          The fact that it runs means the TDC sensor is functional. Either the engine
          speed sensor is bad or the wiring is bad, or that pin on the computer is
          fried, or that circuitry in the computer internally is toast . Those cables
          (TDC & engine RPM) are shielded because the signals that traverse them are
          itty-bitty electrically. There is a lot of stray electrical interference
          (coil & spark plug wires most notably) in the engine compartment. Scrape the
          cable and the computer will get false readings. The distance the sensors are
          from the flywheel is also critical. Closer is better. The engine block must
          have a good ground and share the same ground as the shielding on the sensor
          wiring. I have several of these older BMW's and the first thing I do when I
          get one is re-do all the ground wiring. This clears up 90% of all the
          electrical gremlins. Spark advance is determined by engine speed (no advance
          = low power). The start of spark timing is determined from TDC sensor
          (backfire = unreliable TDC signal). A sloppy worn out timing belt will cause
          performance issues as the distributor is driven off the cam.



          From: bmwe28@... [mailto:bmwe28@...] On Behalf
          Of Gil Thereault
          Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:15 PM
          To: bmwe28@...
          Subject: Re: [bmw e28] 83 528E converting the car from automatic to manual 5
          speed





          This may sound stupid. The first thing come to mind the automatic trans has
          a separate computer that is still hooked up?? Unless one of the two sensors
          are bad. Swapping out these may also rule out things.

          --- On Mon, 8/16/10, elswwjd316 <lone.antelope.ranch@...
          <mailto:lone.antelope.ranch%40gmail.com> > wrote:

          From: elswwjd316 <lone.antelope.ranch@...
          <mailto:lone.antelope.ranch%40gmail.com> >
          Subject: [bmw e28] 83 528E
          To: bmwe28@... <mailto:bmwe28%40yahoogroups.co.uk>
          Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 1:36 PM

          Have completed converting the car from automatic to manual 5 speed. Ignition
          timing is still off after replacing both sensors on bell housing and having
          them set by a shop. Low power, hard starting and occasional backfire.....

          ------------------------------------

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          bmwe28-unsubscribe@...
          <mailto:bmwe28-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.co.uk>

          Yahoo! Groups Links

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • elswwjd316
          Jeff, Thanks for the reply. According to the shop owner who tested the car, the flywheel has a raised tab or tooth that the TDC sensor reads and the
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 17, 2010
            Jeff,

            Thanks for the reply. According to the shop owner who tested the car, the flywheel has a raised "tab" or "tooth" that the TDC sensor "reads" and the flywheel we have in the car has two such sensor points on it's perimeter; the first is in the wrong position and the second is causing the backfiring by causing a false signal. He and his mechanic found a mechanic in Australia who had the same problems after a conversion to an identical car. That mechanic said that there are different fly wheels for each of the two fuel injection controllers used that year, version 1.0 and 1.1 Motronic ignition.

            I have tried three controllers: the original burned out. The second was an exact used replacement and it is in the car now. The third was dead on arrival. Could a bad controller cause the timing symptoms I an experiencing?

            I am now trying to do two things: first, find out if this is true (two flywheel models) and if so to find the other flywheel used somewhere. I have the official BMW shop manual and it does not mention two flywheels, although it does list both versions of controllers.

            Another point is the shielding on the sensor cables. Since these are for signal voltage only, the ground shield is only attached to the controller case ground though the main cable. I had the shop replace both sensors with brand new because the old sensors were showing lots of electrical noise.

            BTW, the car ran perfectly before the conversion was begun except for minor overheating which I fixed by replacing the radiator and water pump. The car has 102,000 original miles on it and drove like a new car when I bought it 3 years ago. My son, who is now driving, is working with me on this trying to get the car drivble for him to use it for school.

            All suggestions and help is greatly appreciated.

            Regards,

            Ed Stodghill
            lone.antelope.ranch@...

            --- In bmwe28@..., "Jeff Schlenker" <jeffreyl_56655@...> wrote:
            >
            > The fact that it runs means the TDC sensor is functional. Either the engine
            > speed sensor is bad or the wiring is bad, or that pin on the computer is
            > fried, or that circuitry in the computer internally is toast . Those cables
            > (TDC & engine RPM) are shielded because the signals that traverse them are
            > itty-bitty electrically. There is a lot of stray electrical interference
            > (coil & spark plug wires most notably) in the engine compartment. Scrape the
            > cable and the computer will get false readings. The distance the sensors are
            > from the flywheel is also critical. Closer is better. The engine block must
            > have a good ground and share the same ground as the shielding on the sensor
            > wiring. I have several of these older BMW's and the first thing I do when I
            > get one is re-do all the ground wiring. This clears up 90% of all the
            > electrical gremlins. Spark advance is determined by engine speed (no advance
            > = low power). The start of spark timing is determined from TDC sensor
            > (backfire = unreliable TDC signal). A sloppy worn out timing belt will cause
            > performance issues as the distributor is driven off the cam.
            >
            >
            >
            > From: bmwe28@... [mailto:bmwe28@...] On Behalf
            > Of Gil Thereault
            > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:15 PM
            > To: bmwe28@...
            > Subject: Re: [bmw e28] 83 528E converting the car from automatic to manual 5
            > speed
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > This may sound stupid. The first thing come to mind the automatic trans has
            > a separate computer that is still hooked up?? Unless one of the two sensors
            > are bad. Swapping out these may also rule out things.
            >
            > --- On Mon, 8/16/10, elswwjd316 <lone.antelope.ranch@...
            > <mailto:lone.antelope.ranch%40gmail.com> > wrote:
            >
            > From: elswwjd316 <lone.antelope.ranch@...
            > <mailto:lone.antelope.ranch%40gmail.com> >
            > Subject: [bmw e28] 83 528E
            > To: bmwe28@... <mailto:bmwe28%40yahoogroups.co.uk>
            > Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 1:36 PM
            >
            > Have completed converting the car from automatic to manual 5 speed. Ignition
            > timing is still off after replacing both sensors on bell housing and having
            > them set by a shop. Low power, hard starting and occasional backfire.....
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > bmwe28-unsubscribe@...
            > <mailto:bmwe28-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.co.uk>
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Jeff Schlenker
            Could a bad controller cause the timing symptoms I an experiencing? Absolutely! My Bentley says that the Motronic 1.0 uses two sensors (pointed towards the
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 17, 2010
              " Could a bad controller cause the timing symptoms I an experiencing?"
              Absolutely!



              My Bentley says that the Motronic 1.0 uses two sensors (pointed towards the
              flywheel) and the 1.1 uses one. BMW may have used two different flywheels
              one for the 1.0 and a different one for the 1.1 system. My guess is that the
              two would be incompatible. Probably put the "tit" in a different place. I
              know that on a 1.0 system the "tit" indicates TDC. They may have moved the
              "tit" on the 1.1 to dial in some static timing. The composition of the "tit"
              may be different (i.e. a stronger magnet). I can tell you that the newer
              Hall Effect Cam sensors are sensitive to magnetic polarity. Most want the
              North pole pointed towards the sensor. If you sweep the South pole past the
              sensor it yields a real noisy pulse as opposed to a nice clean spike. An
              ignition coil whose dielectric has or is breaking down will give a miss and
              a pop. If you have access to a dual trace O-scope you could compare the
              flywheel sensor output to the diagnostic timing sensor that's mounted on the
              front of the motor. The front sensor isn't used for engine operation as it's
              output dead ends at the diagnostic connector.



              Anyway I'd make sure that the sensors/ECU/flywheel all came off the same
              motor. If the bell housing was off a 1.1 system and the sensors/ECU are 1.0,
              BMW might have relocated the sensor hole, rotationally and depth wise. The
              Motronic 1.0 and 1.1 make a lot of assumptions in their programming as they
              are a pretty stupid embedded controller/comparator.





              From: bmwe28@... [mailto:bmwe28@...] On Behalf
              Of elswwjd316
              Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:11 PM
              To: bmwe28@...
              Subject: [bmw e28] Re: 83 528E converting the car from automatic to manual 5
              speed





              Jeff,

              Thanks for the reply. According to the shop owner who tested the car, the
              flywheel has a raised "tab" or "tooth" that the TDC sensor "reads" and the
              flywheel we have in the car has two such sensor points on it's perimeter;
              the first is in the wrong position and the second is causing the backfiring
              by causing a false signal. He and his mechanic found a mechanic in Australia
              who had the same problems after a conversion to an identical car. That
              mechanic said that there are different fly wheels for each of the two fuel
              injection controllers used that year, version 1.0 and 1.1 Motronic ignition.

              I have tried three controllers: the original burned out. The second was an
              exact used replacement and it is in the car now. The third was dead on
              arrival. Could a bad controller cause the timing symptoms I an experiencing?

              I am now trying to do two things: first, find out if this is true (two
              flywheel models) and if so to find the other flywheel used somewhere. I have
              the official BMW shop manual and it does not mention two flywheels, although
              it does list both versions of controllers.

              Another point is the shielding on the sensor cables. Since these are for
              signal voltage only, the ground shield is only attached to the controller
              case ground though the main cable. I had the shop replace both sensors with
              brand new because the old sensors were showing lots of electrical noise.

              BTW, the car ran perfectly before the conversion was begun except for minor
              overheating which I fixed by replacing the radiator and water pump. The car
              has 102,000 original miles on it and drove like a new car when I bought it 3
              years ago. My son, who is now driving, is working with me on this trying to
              get the car drivble for him to use it for school.

              All suggestions and help is greatly appreciated.

              Regards,

              Ed Stodghill
              lone.antelope.ranch@... <mailto:lone.antelope.ranch%40gmail.com>

              --- In bmwe28@... <mailto:bmwe28%40yahoogroups.co.uk> , "Jeff
              Schlenker" <jeffreyl_56655@...> wrote:
              >
              > The fact that it runs means the TDC sensor is functional. Either the
              engine
              > speed sensor is bad or the wiring is bad, or that pin on the computer is
              > fried, or that circuitry in the computer internally is toast . Those
              cables
              > (TDC & engine RPM) are shielded because the signals that traverse them are
              > itty-bitty electrically. There is a lot of stray electrical interference
              > (coil & spark plug wires most notably) in the engine compartment. Scrape
              the
              > cable and the computer will get false readings. The distance the sensors
              are
              > from the flywheel is also critical. Closer is better. The engine block
              must
              > have a good ground and share the same ground as the shielding on the
              sensor
              > wiring. I have several of these older BMW's and the first thing I do when
              I
              > get one is re-do all the ground wiring. This clears up 90% of all the
              > electrical gremlins. Spark advance is determined by engine speed (no
              advance
              > = low power). The start of spark timing is determined from TDC sensor
              > (backfire = unreliable TDC signal). A sloppy worn out timing belt will
              cause
              > performance issues as the distributor is driven off the cam.
              >
              >
              >
              > From: bmwe28@... <mailto:bmwe28%40yahoogroups.co.uk>
              [mailto:bmwe28@... <mailto:bmwe28%40yahoogroups.co.uk> ] On
              Behalf
              > Of Gil Thereault
              > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:15 PM
              > To: bmwe28@... <mailto:bmwe28%40yahoogroups.co.uk>
              > Subject: Re: [bmw e28] 83 528E converting the car from automatic to manual
              5
              > speed
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > This may sound stupid. The first thing come to mind the automatic trans
              has
              > a separate computer that is still hooked up?? Unless one of the two
              sensors
              > are bad. Swapping out these may also rule out things.
              >
              > --- On Mon, 8/16/10, elswwjd316 <lone.antelope.ranch@...
              <mailto:lone.antelope.ranch@...%0b>
              > <mailto:lone.antelope.ranch%40gmail.com> > wrote:
              >
              > From: elswwjd316 <lone.antelope.ranch@...
              <mailto:lone.antelope.ranch@...%0b>
              > <mailto:lone.antelope.ranch%40gmail.com> >
              > Subject: [bmw e28] 83 528E
              > To: bmwe28@... <mailto:bmwe28%40yahoogroups.co.uk>
              <mailto:bmwe28%40yahoogroups.co.uk>
              > Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 1:36 PM
              >
              > Have completed converting the car from automatic to manual 5 speed.
              Ignition
              > timing is still off after replacing both sensors on bell housing and
              having
              > them set by a shop. Low power, hard starting and occasional backfire.....
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > bmwe28-unsubscribe@...
              <mailto:bmwe28-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.co.uk>
              > <mailto:bmwe28-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.co.uk>
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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