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tiompan again

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  • ckeithcollins
    Thanks Alasdair and Keith S for your input. Keith, I have in fact read the Buckley paper. A good article, although I rather wish she d included the images
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 25, 2007
      Thanks Alasdair and Keith S for your input. Keith, I have in fact
      read the Buckley paper. A good article, although I rather wish
      she'd included the images she mentions. They're to be found
      elsewhere, but not easily. The "stone images" pages on Simon's
      site, and clarsach.net, are very convenient.

      I recently stumbled on a web page for an instrument who builds
      rotes. One of the rotes he builds is based on an original from a 6-
      7th century warrior's grave in the Black Forest. The page states
      that this "Germanic" rote was strung with wire, and he specifically
      mentions bronze (his Sutton Hoo and Prittlewell rotes are strung
      with gut). He cites "an old English book describing the history of
      stringed instruments"; maybe he means the Galpin book "Old English
      Instruments of Music"?

      http://www.cooginstruments.com/Rotes.htm

      Does this ring any bells out there? Lyres/rotes on the continent
      strung with metal? I'm working from the possibility that early
      references to tiompan indicate a plucked metal-strung lyre (and
      later a bowed lyre). If lyres were (occasionally?) wire-strung on
      the continent, then does that mean that a wire-strung lyre-like
      tiompan in the Isles wasn't such an anomaly? I was under the
      impression that when the medieval writers mention metal strings it
      is because they are unusual. Or perhaps this "warrior" was from
      across the Channel... makes one wonder what else was in that
      burial. I'll have to do some digging!

      Keith Collins
    • brendan ring
      You might find this site interesting, -http://apemutam.free.fr/ They have an article or pamphlet called Carnyx and lyres in Gaule which I will try to get
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 26, 2007
        You might find this site interesting,
        -http://apemutam.free.fr/
        They have an article or pamphlet called " Carnyx and
        lyres in Gaule" which I will try to get from them.
        Their Romanesque iconography is worth a detour, check
        out the harp on the phototheque icon. They say in it,
        that harps are seldom represented in Romanesque
        carving, I find this isn't correct as I keep coming
        across representations, even on the corbels of my
        local church(11th/12th century)!







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      • Edgar Peters
        There was also an article a while ago about musical instruments in a church that were being played by angels. Evidently it turned out that the instruments
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 26, 2007
          There was also an article a while ago about musical instruments in a
          church that were being played by angels. Evidently it turned out
          that the instruments were real after someone examined the statues
          for cleaning I believe. Interestingly, the harp had brass strings.
          The fact that the bass strings were twisted wire implied that the
          strings weren't wire just because it was a statue. I seem to
          remember that the harps were small and from the 14th century or so.
          It seemed to indicate that wire strung harps were also played on the
          continent. I also seem to remember that the instruments had labels
          that corresponded with someone who made relatively cheap instruments
          for the masses.

          Anyone else hear about this?

          Ed Peters

          --- In clairseach@..., "ckeithcollins"
          <ckeithcollins@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thanks Alasdair and Keith S for your input. Keith, I have in fact
          > read the Buckley paper. A good article, although I rather wish
          > she'd included the images she mentions. They're to be found
          > elsewhere, but not easily. The "stone images" pages on Simon's
          > site, and clarsach.net, are very convenient.
          >
          > I recently stumbled on a web page for an instrument who builds
          > rotes. One of the rotes he builds is based on an original from a
          6-
          > 7th century warrior's grave in the Black Forest. The page states
          > that this "Germanic" rote was strung with wire, and he
          specifically
          > mentions bronze (his Sutton Hoo and Prittlewell rotes are strung
          > with gut). He cites "an old English book describing the history
          of
          > stringed instruments"; maybe he means the Galpin book "Old English
          > Instruments of Music"?
          >
          > http://www.cooginstruments.com/Rotes.htm
          >
          > Does this ring any bells out there? Lyres/rotes on the continent
          > strung with metal? I'm working from the possibility that early
          > references to tiompan indicate a plucked metal-strung lyre (and
          > later a bowed lyre). If lyres were (occasionally?) wire-strung on
          > the continent, then does that mean that a wire-strung lyre-like
          > tiompan in the Isles wasn't such an anomaly? I was under the
          > impression that when the medieval writers mention metal strings it
          > is because they are unusual. Or perhaps this "warrior" was from
          > across the Channel... makes one wonder what else was in that
          > burial. I'll have to do some digging!
          >
          > Keith Collins
          >
        • sanger_keith
          Dear Keith Not Galpin, at least the 4th edition which is the one I have to hand, he mentions the Black Forest instrument which he says is preserved in the
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 26, 2007
            Dear Keith

            Not Galpin, at least the 4th edition which is the one I have to hand,
            he mentions the 'Black Forest' instrument which he says is preserved
            in the Ethnographical Museum at Berlin, but goes on to say
            that 'owing to its great age, strings, pegs and bridge had all
            perished', although he does give an illustration of an exact
            facsimile with strings, pegs and bridge added'.

            It is also mentioned by Curt Sachs in his History of Musical
            Instruments but nothing about metal strings, although he does have a
            confusing comment a few pages before about 'the older harp had wire
            strings' which read carefully relates to the paragraph before
            re 'Irish minstrels swarming over Europe' (swarming, sounds rather
            like bees, but I thought they were the Welsh instrument).

            Although I raised the question regarding the tiompan and the
            Anglo/Norman/Welsh harps in Ireland I was not sure that this site was
            the one to discuss them, but if we are heading down that route, then
            the Bowed instrument from probably a circa 12th cent carving at
            Church Island, Lough Currane( illustrated in the Journal of the Royal
            Society of Antiquaries of Ireland, 5th series vol XVIII, 1908) would
            also come into the frame.

            Strangely, one instrument which tends not to be mentioned or pictured
            but which judging from the quantities being found everywhere in the
            UK must have been one of the most popular was the jews or jaws harp.
            It is one of the dificulties of getting a balanced picture, or
            assessing the accuracy of the contemporary descriptions. Names easily
            turned into popular 'generic' forms. the best series of examples that
            comes to mind is a Scottish book printed in 1631 ( the only copy of
            which is now in the Huntington Library, California) which has a
            picture of a harp with the legend Orpheus Fiddle. And that from an
            Aberdeen printer who had already printed several editions of the
            psalms of David the harper.

            Jump forward to 1905 when FJ Biggar was trying to find details of the
            harper Hempson, and traced someone who had known the 'grandchild of
            the blind fidiler', where it was explaned that the term 'fidiler' in
            that part of the West of Ireland meant anyone who earned their living
            by playing a musical instrument.

            And the final jump to a contemporary harper who having lugged her
            instrument onto an Edinburgh bus a few years back was then exorted by
            one of the other passengers to 'gie us a tune on yer fiddle'.

            As a result I now tend to approach all the source material with
            considerable caution being convinced that there is still more to find
            and it may still be too early to come to conclusions. After all, the
            question of how many angels fit on the end of a pin at times seems
            easier to solve than some of these discussions. ( and the answer,
            like the answer to the question in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
            is 42, it would have been 43 but the devil had already fallen)

            Keith




            --- In clairseach@..., "ckeithcollins"
            <ckeithcollins@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks Alasdair and Keith S for your input. Keith, I have in fact
            > read the Buckley paper. A good article, although I rather wish
            > she'd included the images she mentions. They're to be found
            > elsewhere, but not easily. The "stone images" pages on Simon's
            > site, and clarsach.net, are very convenient.
            >
            > I recently stumbled on a web page for an instrument who builds
            > rotes. One of the rotes he builds is based on an original from a
            6-
            > 7th century warrior's grave in the Black Forest. The page states
            > that this "Germanic" rote was strung with wire, and he specifically
            > mentions bronze (his Sutton Hoo and Prittlewell rotes are strung
            > with gut). He cites "an old English book describing the history of
            > stringed instruments"; maybe he means the Galpin book "Old English
            > Instruments of Music"?
            >
            > http://www.cooginstruments.com/Rotes.htm
            >
            > Does this ring any bells out there? Lyres/rotes on the continent
            > strung with metal? I'm working from the possibility that early
            > references to tiompan indicate a plucked metal-strung lyre (and
            > later a bowed lyre). If lyres were (occasionally?) wire-strung on
            > the continent, then does that mean that a wire-strung lyre-like
            > tiompan in the Isles wasn't such an anomaly? I was under the
            > impression that when the medieval writers mention metal strings it
            > is because they are unusual. Or perhaps this "warrior" was from
            > across the Channel... makes one wonder what else was in that
            > burial. I'll have to do some digging!
            >
            > Keith Collins
            >
          • Janet Kurnick
            I had heard the same thing this was posted on wire list awhile back from Ed Peters To: WireHarp@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 2:59 PM Subject:
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 28, 2007
              I had heard the same thing this was posted on wire list awhile back from Ed
              Peters

              To: WireHarp@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 2:59 PM
              Subject: [WireHarp] New Evidence of wire harps on the continent


              I recently received my copy of the Historical Harp Society Journal.
              There was an interesting article about some statues of angels in a
              cathedral in Freiberg that were put up in the 1500s. The angels were
              playing instruments, but it turned out that the angels were holding
              real instruments, not just sculpted reproductions. There were harps
              there, but they resemble the types of harps played by street
              musicians rather than the "gothic" style that is usually shown in
              paintings of the period. Labels in some of the other instruments
              point towards a workshop which was known to produce instruments for
              street musicians.

              Anyway, the harps did have bronze wire strings. While the article
              didn't state how many strings the harps had, it does state that the
              lower two strings were twisted.

              The harps were made mostly of linden or lime, but oddly one pillar
              was made of soft poplar. They also had wood tuning pins and
              horseshoe shaped bray pins which evidently don't bray (I'm not sure
              how they can be bray pins if they don't bray.). The bray pins
              evidently assist in holding the strings which are tied to the
              soundboard on metal pins rather than entering the soundbox.

              A reproduction was made by Thilo Viehrig. Evidently Nancy Thym
              played it at last year's HHS meeting, but I was unable to attend.

              I thought the group would find this info interesting. Evidently
              there is now a search of other rennaisance statues to see if other
              churchs also used real instruments with their statues.

              Ed Peters
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