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RE: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp and more

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  • bigjoe
    Chad A few more pieces of the Puzzel for you.... Please look at wood and strings; in Ireland and Scotland the large trees were gone (thanks to the English) by
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 12, 2008
      Chad

      A few more pieces of the Puzzel for you....

      Please look at wood and strings; in Ireland and Scotland the large trees were gone (thanks to the English) by 1650 (there was a land survey to prove it, good trees in Ireland in 1600 and gone in 1650) so from this date on a "dug-out" style construction Harp Body was rether difficult to achieve. From this date on, only the "Box" Body would have been easy to achieve.

      A Harp is its Strings, the rest is just a frame to hold the Strings. A important question is where did the strings come from and who had the tech to make them. A piece of the puzzle is that in the Middle Ages metal wire making was a Royal Monopoly in England and it is recorded that the smuggling of music wire was on the top ten of things to smuggle in to England up to the 18th century.

      Another part of the puzzel is the English Civil War. During this period there was no public music in any place that English Law extended to, including the Irish Pale. Not professional music, a musician either changed or died, they all dissipeared until after the Restoration. This also affected the English, Scottish and Irish Instrument Makers, they also disappeared. King Charles spent his minority in the French Court and developed Continental Tastes in Music which he brought back to England with him.

      The battle of Kinsale cost the Irish the last of the Gaelic Irish Courts and caused the Flight of the Earls (my opinion). At about this date is when the Paraguayan Harp started taking off in Paraguay. A lot of Irish migrated to Paraguay (historical record). I have tried to find out who took Harp Making to the Jesuit Missions of Paraguay, but so far only one Irish or Scottish name, the rest of the names are German or Dutch.

      Hope this helps a little.
      Joe



      ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
      From: Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@...>
      Reply-To: clairseach@...
      Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:59:07 -0500

      >
      >A series of good questions to ponder!
      >
      >It seems reasonable that there were Gaelic type wire strung harps being built in other places in Europe by the 17th century, given what Praetorius and others have said. We have evidence that these harps were being made in England for Irish, Scottish and British players, it is not to much of a leap to think that luthiers in other countries were doing the same for ex-pat musicians abroad.
      >
      >I believe this was brought about by simple necessity. The economic situation in Gaelic speaking lands was becoming grave during this era spurring harpers to start traveling outside those areas for greener pastures. The larger heavier low headed instruments that had evolved presented a transportation challenge for the harper leaving his native place, particularly when going over seas. Shipping was extremely expensive and dangerous for a large fraglie instrument. Likely it easier and cheaper for the harper to buy (or have his employer buy) a whole new instrument, built near their new places of employment.
      >
      >There was also the major shift in musical tastes on the contient away from the older modal system. A harper with older diatonic instrument may have had needed newer chromatic harps purposely built to cope with the new music.
      >
      >To my mind there was little motive for the Gaelic harper to take up the gut strung Baroque harp. Switching to a gut strung instrument would invalidate the reasons for these European nobles had in hiring foreign musicians to play an exotic instrument, as I'm sure there were many capable domestic harpists that these courts could hire. Look at the fortunes of Indian sitarist rise in the west during the 1960's. Why would they switch to playing guitar to get gigs?? The harper's motivation for having an expanded version of a diatonic clairseach is a logical solution to their problem.
      >
      >A quick scan of the visual evidence from the Thim painting and the Syntagma musicum woodcuts tells us that these instruments were modeled closely after large low headed native Irish and Scottish instruments of the period. The outward appearance differs little from surviving instruments like the O'Fforgerty harp. Praetorius was even kind enough to give us a tuning for the instrument, that like the Cloyne harp it had a partially chromatic range. Other subtle diffenences are hard to tell!
      >
      >I'd love to know if these contiental built wire strung harps were made in the same fashion as the older Gaelic ones. Surviving native European harps of the 17th century were "built up" box affairs; I'm curious if any of this newer building fashion was applied to the clairseach. Did the massive tension of chromatic stringing require these new harps to be strung differently than the diatonic ones?? And what were they strung with?? Only research and perhaps even reconstructions of these instruments will tell us.
      >
      >Chad
      >
      >
      >To: clairseach@...: bigjoe@...: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:02:54 -0500Subject: Re: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >KeithGood question, I would also like to know who made the Harp used by O'Reilly in the Danish Court. Also while you are looking, I would like to know anything you find. I am especially interested in what wood and what strings and who made them if you can get that far. The strings for a Harp define a lot about what the Harp is.ThanksJoe---------- Original Message ----------------------------------From: "sanger_keith" <sanger_keith@...>Reply-To: clairseach@...: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:31:15 -0000>Alasdair raises an interesting point in his quote from Arthur O'Neill >regarding how accomadating the harpers were in regards to >instruments, especially when they were furth of their own country. >>We certainly know what Darby Scott was playing at the Danish Court >circa 1620, as he was obliging enough to have his picture painted >with harp, although that of course does not tell us where it was >actually made. A more intriguing question arises however with his >predecessor 'Carolus Oralii',(Charles O'Reilly) who is listed among >the payments to court musicians between November 1601 and October >1602. >>As he was the only harper listed around that period, then an >instruction from King Christian IV of Denmark to his Knight Marshall >dated 24 September 1602, regarding the final payment to a harper >coming to the end of his contract, which includes the instruction >to 'Keep the Harp as we paid for it', must presumably apply to the >instrument used by O'Reilly. >>So the employer paid for the instrument, but what sort of harp and >where I wonder was it made ?>>Keith>>>---[This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot Virus]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >_________________________________________________________________
      >Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.
      >http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008
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    • Chad McAnally
      Hey Joe, Excellent point about the Irish timber situation of the period and great use of research. At the same time many Irish land owning families were
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 13, 2008
        Hey Joe,

        Excellent point about the Irish timber situation of the period and great use of research. At the same time many Irish land owning families were disposed of their property and those who worked for them were denied use of it's resources. This scarcity explains why bog timber came into wide use for everything from harps to hobs during the Penal era.
         
         The timber problem was complicated further by several horrible winters and storms that were know to have damaged many trees in Ireland and throughout Europe towards the end of the 17th century and beginning of the 18th. For example France was hit so bitterly by cold in the early 1700's that it wiped out all the walnut trees north of the Auvergne. (Yikes...no nuts for granola!!!) This came courtesy of the fury of the "Little Age". (FYI: For a extremely written book on this topic check out Dr. Brian Fagan's " The Little Age: How Climate Made History 1300-1850". )

           
        I've read about the hard times faced by musicians and luthiers during the Commonwealth period. Despite the official puritanical fiats against concerts, music making and theater these activities did continue "underground". The moneyed classes held private entertainments, and the common folk largely kept on as they were, but in a more discrete fashion. More high profile music makers didn't really disappear, but as you said they adapted or found other work. Many professional musicians in England emigrated to greater Europe, many instrument makers turned their skills to furniture making or similar work. Or they made instruments covertly; I came across a story of a keyboard instrument maker fearing retribution of the Roundheads was forced smuggle a newly made spinet to a client in the dead of night.

         
        Interesting comment you made about Paraguay. Indeed there were a number of Irish emigrants to Paraguay and a number of other central American countries. The Jesuits were unusual at the time for demanding basic human rights for Indian peoples and played a vital role in preventing the horrors that befell others parts of the Americans.
         
        The Latin American harps bear strong resemblance to the diatonic harps that were common in Spain in the early Baroque. Their structure, playing positions, and even their tunings are all traceable to early Iberian influence.
         
        Their technique is interesting; many use their fingernails in a way that would work well on wire strings. Perhaps in this you have come on something Joe. Most scholars chalk up the use of fingernails amongst Latino harpers as another part of the early inheritance from Spain, but perhaps instead they were influenced in this way by Irish priests! But a word of warning...the Paraguayan harpers I know might throw their empanadas at you for saying so!!!
         
        The evidence for it being a native idea is quite strong. Paraguayan nail technique is virtually identical to the way they play fretted strings instruments like the guitar.
         
        Chad
         


         
         
         
         
         


         







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      • Robin Ward
        Hi there, I was more under the impression that the Spaniards took the Spanish single and double strung harps with them to the new world. Of the few pictures
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 13, 2008
          Hi there,

          I was more under the impression that the Spaniards took the Spanish
          single and double strung harps with them to the new world. Of the few
          pictures I've seen of old harps in Latin America they seem to copy the
          mainland style of construction too well to not have some form of
          Spanish influence. Is this possibly another school of harp making in
          L.A that your trying to follow up? ... I'm very interested is hearing
          about anything you manage to piece together.

          Robin

          Just thinking back to wire harps and chromatic music in the European
          courts, when I was doing my masters thesis/project I looked at the
          Lawes Consorts. In short my conclusion was that the harp parts of the
          first few consorts seem to imply a diatonic harp that was tuned with
          preset chromatics. The later consorts require a chromatic harp of some
          description. Given texture etc. My humble view is that the later
          consorts are for Gut strung harp, while the earlier consorts are
          equally liable to have been played on the Gut strung harp or wire
          harp, what ever it was, it wasn't a chromatic instrument. One day I
          hope to tidy it all up and publish the set.

          --- In clairseach@..., "bigjoe" <bigjoe@...> wrote:
          >
          > Chad
          >
          > A few more pieces of the Puzzel for you....
          >
          > Please look at wood and strings; in Ireland and Scotland the large
          trees were gone (thanks to the English) by 1650 (there was a land
          survey to prove it, good trees in Ireland in 1600 and gone in 1650) so
          from this date on a "dug-out" style construction Harp Body was rether
          difficult to achieve. From this date on, only the "Box" Body would
          have been easy to achieve.
          >
          > A Harp is its Strings, the rest is just a frame to hold the Strings.
          A important question is where did the strings come from and who had
          the tech to make them. A piece of the puzzle is that in the Middle
          Ages metal wire making was a Royal Monopoly in England and it is
          recorded that the smuggling of music wire was on the top ten of things
          to smuggle in to England up to the 18th century.
          >
          > Another part of the puzzel is the English Civil War. During this
          period there was no public music in any place that English Law
          extended to, including the Irish Pale. Not professional music, a
          musician either changed or died, they all dissipeared until after the
          Restoration. This also affected the English, Scottish and Irish
          Instrument Makers, they also disappeared. King Charles spent his
          minority in the French Court and developed Continental Tastes in Music
          which he brought back to England with him.
          >
          > The battle of Kinsale cost the Irish the last of the Gaelic Irish
          Courts and caused the Flight of the Earls (my opinion). At about this
          date is when the Paraguayan Harp started taking off in Paraguay. A
          lot of Irish migrated to Paraguay (historical record). I have tried
          to find out who took Harp Making to the Jesuit Missions of Paraguay,
          but so far only one Irish or Scottish name, the rest of the names are
          German or Dutch.
          >
          > Hope this helps a little.
          > Joe
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
          > From: Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@...>
          > Reply-To: clairseach@...
          > Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:59:07 -0500
          >
          > >
          > >A series of good questions to ponder!
          > >
          > >It seems reasonable that there were Gaelic type wire strung harps
          being built in other places in Europe by the 17th century, given what
          Praetorius and others have said. We have evidence that these harps
          were being made in England for Irish, Scottish and British players, it
          is not to much of a leap to think that luthiers in other countries
          were doing the same for ex-pat musicians abroad.
          > >
          > >I believe this was brought about by simple necessity. The economic
          situation in Gaelic speaking lands was becoming grave during this era
          spurring harpers to start traveling outside those areas for greener
          pastures. The larger heavier low headed instruments that had evolved
          presented a transportation challenge for the harper leaving his native
          place, particularly when going over seas. Shipping was extremely
          expensive and dangerous for a large fraglie instrument. Likely it
          easier and cheaper for the harper to buy (or have his employer buy) a
          whole new instrument, built near their new places of employment.
          > >
          > >There was also the major shift in musical tastes on the contient
          away from the older modal system. A harper with older diatonic
          instrument may have had needed newer chromatic harps purposely built
          to cope with the new music.
          > >
          > >To my mind there was little motive for the Gaelic harper to take up
          the gut strung Baroque harp. Switching to a gut strung instrument
          would invalidate the reasons for these European nobles had in hiring
          foreign musicians to play an exotic instrument, as I'm sure there were
          many capable domestic harpists that these courts could hire. Look at
          the fortunes of Indian sitarist rise in the west during the 1960's.
          Why would they switch to playing guitar to get gigs?? The harper's
          motivation for having an expanded version of a diatonic clairseach is
          a logical solution to their problem.
          > >
          > >A quick scan of the visual evidence from the Thim painting and the
          Syntagma musicum woodcuts tells us that these instruments were modeled
          closely after large low headed native Irish and Scottish instruments
          of the period. The outward appearance differs little from surviving
          instruments like the O'Fforgerty harp. Praetorius was even kind enough
          to give us a tuning for the instrument, that like the Cloyne harp it
          had a partially chromatic range. Other subtle diffenences are hard to
          tell!
          > >
          > >I'd love to know if these contiental built wire strung harps were
          made in the same fashion as the older Gaelic ones. Surviving native
          European harps of the 17th century were "built up" box affairs; I'm
          curious if any of this newer building fashion was applied to the
          clairseach. Did the massive tension of chromatic stringing require
          these new harps to be strung differently than the diatonic ones?? And
          what were they strung with?? Only research and perhaps even
          reconstructions of these instruments will tell us.
          > >
          > >Chad
          > >
          > >
          > >To: clairseach@...: bigjoe@...: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:02:54
          -0500Subject: Re: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >KeithGood question, I would also like to know who made the Harp
          used by O'Reilly in the Danish Court. Also while you are looking, I
          would like to know anything you find. I am especially interested in
          what wood and what strings and who made them if you can get that far.
          The strings for a Harp define a lot about what the Harp
          is.ThanksJoe---------- Original Message
          ----------------------------------From: "sanger_keith"
          <sanger_keith@...>Reply-To: clairseach@...: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:31:15
          -0000>Alasdair raises an interesting point in his quote from Arthur
          O'Neill >regarding how accomadating the harpers were in regards to
          >instruments, especially when they were furth of their own country.
          >>We certainly know what Darby Scott was playing at the Danish Court
          >circa 1620, as he was obliging enough to have his picture painted
          >with harp, although that of course does not tell us where it was
          >actually made. A more intriguing question arises however with his
          >predecessor 'Carolus Oralii',(Charles O'Reilly) who is listed among
          >the payments to court musicians between November 1601 and October
          >1602. >>As he was the only harper listed around that period, then an
          >instruction from King Christian IV of Denmark to his Knight Marshall
          >dated 24 September 1602, regarding the final payment to a harper
          >coming to the end of his contract, which includes the instruction >to
          'Keep the Harp as we paid for it', must presumably apply to the
          >instrument used by O'Reilly. >>So the employer paid for the
          instrument, but what sort of harp and >where I wonder was it made
          ?>>Keith>>>---[This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot
          Virus]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >_________________________________________________________________
          > >Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live
          Messenger.
          >
          >http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008
          > >
          > ---
          > [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot Virus]
          >
        • bigjoe
          Well Chad The Harp is strong in Paraguay .. in the 20th Century there were more Harps than TV sets. The Paraguayan Harp was the first true Folk Harp, each
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 13, 2008
            Well Chad

            The Harp is strong in Paraguay .. in the 20th Century there were more Harps than TV sets.

            The Paraguayan Harp was the first true Folk Harp, each Harper make their own Harp, only late 20TH Century could a "factory" built Harp be bought.

            The Paraguayan Harpers have a unbroken Master/Apprentice chain back to early 1600's.

            My Harp teacher's treacher is Paraguayan Indian and this cvontinues the chain.

            By the way, Father Montegue's SJ Diary (written in church latin) lists the early Jesuit Misssionarys and mentions Harp building. Also the Harp strings of his time was braded leather made fro the belly skin of female horses. The use of horse tail hair has passed out of favor.

            The I think that the Paraguayans will agree that a lot of their ansestry is Irish.

            Every Paraguayan Harper that I have talked to agrees that it was the Jesuits that brought the Harp to Paraguay.

            Also it is historical fact that in 1550 there were no Harps in Paraguay aned in 1650 there was thousands in the several Jesuits Missions alone.


            Joe


            ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
            From: Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@...>
            Reply-To: clairseach@...
            Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:00:23 -0500

            >
            >Hey Joe,
            >Excellent point about the Irish timber situation of the period and great use of research. At the same time many Irish land owning families were disposed of their property and those who worked for them were denied use of it's resources. This scarcity explains why bog timber came into wide use for everything from harps to hobs during the Penal era. The timber problem was complicated further by several horrible winters and storms that were know to have damaged many trees in Ireland and throughout Europe towards the end of the 17th century and beginning of the 18th. For example France was hit so bitterly by cold in the early 1700's that it wiped out all the walnut trees north of the Auvergne. (Yikes...no nuts for granola!!!) This came courtesy of the fury of the "Little Age". (FYI: For a extremely written book on this topic check out Dr. Brian Fagan's " The Little Age: How Climate Made History 1300-1850". )
            > I've read about the hard times faced by musicians and luthiers during the Commonwealth period. Despite the official puritanical fiats against concerts, music making and theater these activities did continue "underground". The moneyed classes held private entertainments, and the common folk largely kept on as they were, but in a more discrete fashion. More high profile music makers didn't really disappear, but as you said they adapted or found other work. Many professional musicians in England emigrated to greater Europe, many instrument makers turned their skills to furniture making or similar work. Or they made instruments covertly; I came across a story of a keyboard instrument maker fearing retribution of the Roundheads was forced smuggle a newly made spinet to a client in the dead of night.
            > Interesting comment you made about Paraguay. Indeed there were a number of Irish emigrants to Paraguay and a number of other central American countries. The Jesuits were unusual at the time for demanding basic human rights for Indian peoples and played a vital role in preventing the horrors that befell others parts of the Americans.
            >
            >The Latin American harps bear strong resemblance to the diatonic harps that were common in Spain in the early Baroque. Their structure, playing positions, and even their tunings are all traceable to early Iberian influence.
            >
            >Their technique is interesting; many use their fingernails in a way that would work well on wire strings. Perhaps in this you have come on something Joe. Most scholars chalk up the use of fingernails amongst Latino harpers as another part of the early inheritance from Spain, but perhaps instead they were influenced in this way by Irish priests! But a word of warning...the Paraguayan harpers I know might throw their empanadas at you for saying so!!!
            >
            >The evidence for it being a native idea is quite strong. Paraguayan nail technique is virtually identical to the way they play fretted strings instruments like the guitar.
            >
            >Chad
            >
            >
            >_________________________________________________________________
            >More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
            >http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
            >
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          • bigjoe
            Hi Robin Well I am limiting my comments to Paraguay mostly, but also some of Uraguay and Argintina ... and no double string Harps in my area of interest. The
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 13, 2008
              Hi Robin

              Well I am limiting my comments to Paraguay mostly, but also some of Uraguay and Argintina ... and no double string Harps in my area of interest. The big question is who among the Jesuits taught Harp making?

              The Paraguayan Harpers all agree that it was the Jesuits that taught the Guayan Indians to build Harps.

              The Gyayan Indians were not even up to the stone age when the Spanish came. See Father Montigua's SJ Diary, there are copys available on internet. Origianl written in church latin. Father Montiga came originally from Cuba. He was Spanish.

              Well the Guayan Indans were easily trainable to use tools. They had a great insentive to become Christan under the Jesuits. The Guayan Indians were considered a natural resourse mostly by the Portiguese from San Paulo. Ther problem was there were no roads, nor large native animals in South America. The Spanish captured the indians that they could to use and worked them to death in their silver mines and the Portugese captured them and worked them to death being porters. The Jesuits has some success keeping the Indians form being taken as slaves. The Indians had the insentative of becoming Christan or becoming extinct.

              Like I have mentioned already, no Harps in 1550, thousands in 1650, the battle of Kinsale was 1605/6 the Flight of the Earls was 1610. Father Montigue does list one of his fellow prist in the mission as a Scotti. Scotti is a general latin term that includes the Irish. The priest that he mentions by name as teaching music and instrument making are all Dutch and from one of the various German states. Germany is having the 30 year doing this period.

              Joe



              ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
              From: "Robin Ward" <seb25arpa@...>
              Reply-To: clairseach@...
              Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 18:56:53 -0000

              >Hi there,
              >
              >I was more under the impression that the Spaniards took the Spanish
              >single and double strung harps with them to the new world. Of the few
              >pictures I've seen of old harps in Latin America they seem to copy the
              >mainland style of construction too well to not have some form of
              >Spanish influence. Is this possibly another school of harp making in
              >L.A that your trying to follow up? ... I'm very interested is hearing
              >about anything you manage to piece together.
              >
              >Robin
              >
              >Just thinking back to wire harps and chromatic music in the European
              >courts, when I was doing my masters thesis/project I looked at the
              >Lawes Consorts. In short my conclusion was that the harp parts of the
              >first few consorts seem to imply a diatonic harp that was tuned with
              >preset chromatics. The later consorts require a chromatic harp of some
              >description. Given texture etc. My humble view is that the later
              >consorts are for Gut strung harp, while the earlier consorts are
              >equally liable to have been played on the Gut strung harp or wire
              >harp, what ever it was, it wasn't a chromatic instrument. One day I
              >hope to tidy it all up and publish the set.
              >
              >--- In clairseach@..., "bigjoe" <bigjoe@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Chad
              >>
              >> A few more pieces of the Puzzel for you....
              >>
              >> Please look at wood and strings; in Ireland and Scotland the large
              >trees were gone (thanks to the English) by 1650 (there was a land
              >survey to prove it, good trees in Ireland in 1600 and gone in 1650) so
              >from this date on a "dug-out" style construction Harp Body was rether
              >difficult to achieve. From this date on, only the "Box" Body would
              >have been easy to achieve.
              >>
              >> A Harp is its Strings, the rest is just a frame to hold the Strings.
              > A important question is where did the strings come from and who had
              >the tech to make them. A piece of the puzzle is that in the Middle
              >Ages metal wire making was a Royal Monopoly in England and it is
              >recorded that the smuggling of music wire was on the top ten of things
              >to smuggle in to England up to the 18th century.
              >>
              >> Another part of the puzzel is the English Civil War. During this
              >period there was no public music in any place that English Law
              >extended to, including the Irish Pale. Not professional music, a
              >musician either changed or died, they all dissipeared until after the
              >Restoration. This also affected the English, Scottish and Irish
              >Instrument Makers, they also disappeared. King Charles spent his
              >minority in the French Court and developed Continental Tastes in Music
              >which he brought back to England with him.
              >>
              >> The battle of Kinsale cost the Irish the last of the Gaelic Irish
              >Courts and caused the Flight of the Earls (my opinion). At about this
              >date is when the Paraguayan Harp started taking off in Paraguay. A
              >lot of Irish migrated to Paraguay (historical record). I have tried
              >to find out who took Harp Making to the Jesuit Missions of Paraguay,
              >but so far only one Irish or Scottish name, the rest of the names are
              >German or Dutch.
              >>
              >> Hope this helps a little.
              >> Joe
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
              >> From: Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@...>
              >> Reply-To: clairseach@...
              >> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:59:07 -0500
              >>
              >> >
              >> >A series of good questions to ponder!
              >> >
              >> >It seems reasonable that there were Gaelic type wire strung harps
              >being built in other places in Europe by the 17th century, given what
              >Praetorius and others have said. We have evidence that these harps
              >were being made in England for Irish, Scottish and British players, it
              >is not to much of a leap to think that luthiers in other countries
              >were doing the same for ex-pat musicians abroad.
              >> >
              >> >I believe this was brought about by simple necessity. The economic
              >situation in Gaelic speaking lands was becoming grave during this era
              >spurring harpers to start traveling outside those areas for greener
              >pastures. The larger heavier low headed instruments that had evolved
              >presented a transportation challenge for the harper leaving his native
              >place, particularly when going over seas. Shipping was extremely
              >expensive and dangerous for a large fraglie instrument. Likely it
              >easier and cheaper for the harper to buy (or have his employer buy) a
              >whole new instrument, built near their new places of employment.
              >> >
              >> >There was also the major shift in musical tastes on the contient
              >away from the older modal system. A harper with older diatonic
              >instrument may have had needed newer chromatic harps purposely built
              >to cope with the new music.
              >> >
              >> >To my mind there was little motive for the Gaelic harper to take up
              >the gut strung Baroque harp. Switching to a gut strung instrument
              >would invalidate the reasons for these European nobles had in hiring
              >foreign musicians to play an exotic instrument, as I'm sure there were
              >many capable domestic harpists that these courts could hire. Look at
              >the fortunes of Indian sitarist rise in the west during the 1960's.
              >Why would they switch to playing guitar to get gigs?? The harper's
              >motivation for having an expanded version of a diatonic clairseach is
              >a logical solution to their problem.
              >> >
              >> >A quick scan of the visual evidence from the Thim painting and the
              >Syntagma musicum woodcuts tells us that these instruments were modeled
              >closely after large low headed native Irish and Scottish instruments
              >of the period. The outward appearance differs little from surviving
              >instruments like the O'Fforgerty harp. Praetorius was even kind enough
              >to give us a tuning for the instrument, that like the Cloyne harp it
              >had a partially chromatic range. Other subtle diffenences are hard to
              >tell!
              >> >
              >> >I'd love to know if these contiental built wire strung harps were
              >made in the same fashion as the older Gaelic ones. Surviving native
              >European harps of the 17th century were "built up" box affairs; I'm
              >curious if any of this newer building fashion was applied to the
              >clairseach. Did the massive tension of chromatic stringing require
              >these new harps to be strung differently than the diatonic ones?? And
              >what were they strung with?? Only research and perhaps even
              >reconstructions of these instruments will tell us.
              >> >
              >> >Chad
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >To: clairseach@...: bigjoe@...: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:02:54
              >-0500Subject: Re: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >KeithGood question, I would also like to know who made the Harp
              >used by O'Reilly in the Danish Court. Also while you are looking, I
              >would like to know anything you find. I am especially interested in
              >what wood and what strings and who made them if you can get that far.
              >The strings for a Harp define a lot about what the Harp
              >is.ThanksJoe---------- Original Message
              >----------------------------------From: "sanger_keith"
              ><sanger_keith@...>Reply-To: clairseach@...: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:31:15
              >-0000>Alasdair raises an interesting point in his quote from Arthur
              >O'Neill >regarding how accomadating the harpers were in regards to
              >>instruments, especially when they were furth of their own country.
              >>>We certainly know what Darby Scott was playing at the Danish Court
              >>circa 1620, as he was obliging enough to have his picture painted
              >>with harp, although that of course does not tell us where it was
              >>actually made. A more intriguing question arises however with his
              >>predecessor 'Carolus Oralii',(Charles O'Reilly) who is listed among
              >>the payments to court musicians between November 1601 and October
              >>1602. >>As he was the only harper listed around that period, then an
              >>instruction from King Christian IV of Denmark to his Knight Marshall
              >>dated 24 September 1602, regarding the final payment to a harper
              >>coming to the end of his contract, which includes the instruction >to
              >'Keep the Harp as we paid for it', must presumably apply to the
              >>instrument used by O'Reilly. >>So the employer paid for the
              >instrument, but what sort of harp and >where I wonder was it made
              >?>>Keith>>>---[This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot
              >Virus]
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >_________________________________________________________________
              >> >Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live
              >Messenger.
              >>
              >>http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008
              >> >
              >> ---
              >> [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot Virus]
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ---
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            • Peter Wilson
              Peruvian harps have wire strings in the top two octaves, I wonder when they started using them? I ve been to the Irish pub in Cusco but didn t see any harpers
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 13, 2008
                Peruvian harps have wire strings in the top two octaves, I wonder when
                they started using them? I've been to the Irish pub in Cusco but
                didn't see any harpers there.

                Peter Wilson

                --- In clairseach@..., Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hey Joe,
                > Excellent point about the Irish timber situation of the period and
                great use of research. At the same time many Irish land owning
                families were disposed of their property and those who worked for them
                were denied use of it's resources. This scarcity explains why bog
                timber came into wide use for everything from harps to hobs during the
                Penal era. The timber problem was complicated further by several
                horrible winters and storms that were know to have damaged many trees
                in Ireland and throughout Europe towards the end of the 17th century
                and beginning of the 18th. For example France was hit so bitterly by
                cold in the early 1700's that it wiped out all the walnut trees north
                of the Auvergne. (Yikes...no nuts for granola!!!) This came courtesy
                of the fury of the "Little Age". (FYI: For a extremely written book on
                this topic check out Dr. Brian Fagan's " The Little Age: How Climate
                Made History 1300-1850". )
                > I've read about the hard times faced by musicians and luthiers
                during the Commonwealth period. Despite the official puritanical fiats
                against concerts, music making and theater these activities did
                continue "underground". The moneyed classes held private
                entertainments, and the common folk largely kept on as they were, but
                in a more discrete fashion. More high profile music makers didn't
                really disappear, but as you said they adapted or found other work.
                Many professional musicians in England emigrated to greater Europe,
                many instrument makers turned their skills to furniture making or
                similar work. Or they made instruments covertly; I came across a story
                of a keyboard instrument maker fearing retribution of the Roundheads
                was forced smuggle a newly made spinet to a client in the dead of night.
                > Interesting comment you made about Paraguay. Indeed there were a
                number of Irish emigrants to Paraguay and a number of other central
                American countries. The Jesuits were unusual at the time for demanding
                basic human rights for Indian peoples and played a vital role in
                preventing the horrors that befell others parts of the Americans.
                >
                > The Latin American harps bear strong resemblance to the diatonic
                harps that were common in Spain in the early Baroque. Their structure,
                playing positions, and even their tunings are all traceable to early
                Iberian influence.
                >
                > Their technique is interesting; many use their fingernails in a way
                that would work well on wire strings. Perhaps in this you have come on
                something Joe. Most scholars chalk up the use of fingernails amongst
                Latino harpers as another part of the early inheritance from Spain,
                but perhaps instead they were influenced in this way by Irish priests!
                But a word of warning...the Paraguayan harpers I know might throw
                their empanadas at you for saying so!!!
                >
                > The evidence for it being a native idea is quite strong. Paraguayan
                nail technique is virtually identical to the way they play fretted
                strings instruments like the guitar.
                >
                > Chad
                >
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live
                Messenger.
                >
                http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
                >
              • Chad McAnally
                Hi there Joe, There is no disputing that the Jesuits brought the harp to Paraguay as you stated! And having more harps and fewer televisions is a very good
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 13, 2008
                  Hi there Joe,

                  There is no disputing that the Jesuits brought the harp to Paraguay as you stated! And having more harps and fewer televisions is a very good thing!!!
                   
                  Speaking as someone who very nearly became a Jesuit himself, I have no trouble accepting that the order was responsible for introducing the harp along side with many other Spanish instruments to the Paraguayan Indians. A certainly a large number of Irish Jesuits and Irish families no doubt were there too, as were their Spanish Jesuit counterparts. The Jesuits took genuine interest in the welfare of the native American peoples and felt it their duty to protect and educate them. The order repeatedly came to blows with officials of the Spanish crown over the Indian's treatment, a rarity in what was otherwise a terrible era for native peoples of the New World.
                   
                  But it is clear that these Latin American harps are direct descendants from the early baroque Spanish harp. There is little to suggest that the Gaelic harp had much influence on the Paraguayan aside of the similarities in nail technique. If the Irish clairseach of that period had been the parent of the Paraguayan harps one would expect to see things like wire strings and a much heavier frame that could tolerant their higher tension. Surviving Spanish and Portuguese baroque harps are remarkably like the harps of Paraguay, Colombia, Guatemala and Mexico.
                   
                  It would have been wonderful if the Clairseach had been sucessfully transplanted in the Americas but sadly this does not appear to have happened. We know of a handful of Gaelic harpers who moved to the Americans but it appear their traditions died with them. Luckily the Paraguayan harp did not suffer the same fate.
                   
                  Check out this beautiful website of the historical harp maker Pedro Llopis Areny, maker of amazing early style Spanish harps. His site has some great article the how the Spanish baroque harps evolved in Paraguay and the other central American countries into the folk harps used in those places.
                  http://www.vanaga.com/arpandes/Nassarriensis.html
                   
                  Take care,
                  Chad

                   



                   

                  To: clairseach@...
                  From: bigjoe@...
                  Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:22:18 -0500
                  Subject: RE: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp and more

                  Well Chad

                  The Harp is strong in Paraguay .. in the 20th Century there were more Harps than TV sets.

                  The Paraguayan Harp was the first true Folk Harp, each Harper make their own Harp, only late 20TH Century could a "factory" built Harp be bought.

                  The Paraguayan Harpers have a unbroken Master/Apprentice chain back to early 1600's.

                  My Harp teacher's treacher is Paraguayan Indian and this cvontinues the chain.

                  By the way, Father Montegue's SJ Diary (written in church latin) lists the early Jesuit Misssionarys and mentions Harp building. Also the Harp strings of his time was braded leather made fro the belly skin of female horses. The use of horse tail hair has passed out of favor.

                  The I think that the Paraguayans will agree that a lot of their ansestry is Irish.

                  Every Paraguayan Harper that I have talked to agrees that it was the Jesuits that brought the Harp to Paraguay.

                  Also it is historical fact that in 1550 there were no Harps in Paraguay aned in 1650 there was thousands in the several Jesuits Missions alone.

                  Joe

                  ---------- Original Message ------------ --------- --------- ----
                  From: Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@ msn.com>
                  Reply-To: clairseach@yahoogro ups.co.uk
                  Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:00:23 -0500

                  >
                  >Hey Joe,
                  >Excellent point about the Irish timber situation of the period and great use of research. At the same time many Irish land owning families were disposed of their property and those who worked for them were denied use of it's resources. This scarcity explains why bog timber came into wide use for everything from harps to hobs during the Penal era. The timber problem was complicated further by several horrible winters and storms that were know to have damaged many trees in Ireland and throughout Europe towards the end of the 17th century and beginning of the 18th. For example France was hit so bitterly by cold in the early 1700's that it wiped out all the walnut trees north of the Auvergne. (Yikes...no nuts for granola!!!) This came courtesy of the fury of the "Little Age". (FYI: For a extremely written book on this topic check out Dr. Brian Fagan's " The Little Age: How Climate Made History 1300-1850". )
                  > I've read about the hard times faced by musicians and luthiers during the Commonwealth period. Despite the official puritanical fiats against concerts, music making and theater these activities did continue "underground" . The moneyed classes held private entertainments, and the common folk largely kept on as they were, but in a more discrete fashion. More high profile music makers didn't really disappear, but as you said they adapted or found other work. Many professional musicians in England emigrated to greater Europe, many instrument makers turned their skills to furniture making or similar work. Or they made instruments covertly; I came across a story of a keyboard instrument maker fearing retribution of the Roundheads was forced smuggle a newly made spinet to a client in the dead of night.
                  > Interesting comment you made about Paraguay. Indeed there were a number of Irish emigrants to Paraguay and a number of other central American countries. The Jesuits were unusual at the time for demanding basic human rights for Indian peoples and played a vital role in preventing the horrors that befell others parts of the Americans.
                  >
                  >The Latin American harps bear strong resemblance to the diatonic harps that were common in Spain in the early Baroque. Their structure, playing positions, and even their tunings are all traceable to early Iberian influence.
                  >
                  >Their technique is interesting; many use their fingernails in a way that would work well on wire strings. Perhaps in this you have come on something Joe. Most scholars chalk up the use of fingernails amongst Latino harpers as another part of the early inheritance from Spain, but perhaps instead they were influenced in this way by Irish priests! But a word of warning...the Paraguayan harpers I know might throw their empanadas at you for saying so!!!
                  >
                  >The evidence for it being a native idea is quite strong. Paraguayan nail technique is virtually identical to the way they play fretted strings instruments like the guitar.
                  >
                  >Chad
                  >
                  >
                  >___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                  >More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
                  >http://www.windowsl ive.com/messenge r/overview. html?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_ 042008
                  >
                  ---
                  [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot Virus]




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                • bigjoe
                  Hi Chad I think we are saying much the same thing.... Some Gaelic Iridh Harp makers went to the Americas, I am interested in the ones that emmigrated in the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 14, 2008
                    Hi Chad

                    I think we are saying much the same thing....

                    Some Gaelic Iridh Harp makers went to the Americas, I am interested in the ones that emmigrated in the 1605 to 1650 period. But my research shows that more Gaelic Irish went to Germany and got lost in the 30 year war.

                    On Harp styles, I "would like to show" that the Gaelic Irish Harp building went to Paraguay; BUT I can not find any evidence that this happened.

                    On Harp styles, my opinion is still that a Harp is its strings and the rest is a frame to hold the strings. The strings are important in tracing the Harps history could benefit from looking what the strings are and where they could possibly come from. Also the wood is important, if the wood is not available it affects style. Also if a string material is no longer available, then the Harp maker is forced to change.

                    So I have looked a lot and not found much.

                    Joe

                    ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                    From: Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@...>
                    Reply-To: clairseach@...
                    Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 23:04:27 -0500

                    >
                    >Hi there Joe,
                    >There is no disputing that the Jesuits brought the harp to Paraguay as you stated! And having more harps and fewer televisions is a very good thing!!!
                    >
                    >Speaking as someone who very nearly became a Jesuit himself, I have no trouble accepting that the order was responsible for introducing the harp along side with many other Spanish instruments to the Paraguayan Indians. A certainly a large number of Irish Jesuits and Irish families no doubt were there too, as were their Spanish Jesuit counterparts. The Jesuits took genuine interest in the welfare of the native American peoples and felt it their duty to protect and educate them. The order repeatedly came to blows with officials of the Spanish crown over the Indian's treatment, a rarity in what was otherwise a terrible era for native peoples of the New World.
                    >
                    >But it is clear that these Latin American harps are direct descendants from the early baroque Spanish harp. There is little to suggest that the Gaelic harp had much influence on the Paraguayan aside of the similarities in nail technique. If the Irish clairseach of that period had been the parent of the Paraguayan harps one would expect to see things like wire strings and a much heavier frame that could tolerant their higher tension. Surviving Spanish and Portuguese baroque harps are remarkably like the harps of Paraguay, Colombia, Guatemala and Mexico.
                    >
                    >It would have been wonderful if the Clairseach had been sucessfully transplanted in the Americas but sadly this does not appear to have happened. We know of a handful of Gaelic harpers who moved to the Americans but it appear their traditions died with them. Luckily the Paraguayan harp did not suffer the same fate.
                    >
                    >Check out this beautiful website of the historical harp maker Pedro Llopis Areny, maker of amazing early style Spanish harps. His site has some great article the how the Spanish baroque harps evolved in Paraguay and the other central American countries into the folk harps used in those places.
                    >http://www.vanaga.com/arpandes/Nassarriensis.html
                    >
                    >Take care,
                    >Chad
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >To: clairseach@...: bigjoe@...: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:22:18 -0500Subject: RE: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp and more
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Well ChadThe Harp is strong in Paraguay .. in the 20th Century there were more Harps than TV sets.The Paraguayan Harp was the first true Folk Harp, each Harper make their own Harp, only late 20TH Century could a "factory" built Harp be bought.The Paraguayan Harpers have a unbroken Master/Apprentice chain back to early 1600's.My Harp teacher's treacher is Paraguayan Indian and this cvontinues the chain.By the way, Father Montegue's SJ Diary (written in church latin) lists the early Jesuit Misssionarys and mentions Harp building. Also the Harp strings of his time was braded leather made fro the belly skin of female horses. The use of horse tail hair has passed out of favor.The I think that the Paraguayans will agree that a lot of their ansestry is Irish. Every Paraguayan Harper that I have talked to agrees that it was the Jesuits that brought the Harp to Paraguay.Also it is historical fact that in 1550 there were no Harps in Paraguay aned in 1650 there was thousands in the several Jesuits Missions alone.Joe---------- Original Message ----------------------------------From: Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@...>Reply-To: clairseach@...: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:00:23 -0500>>Hey Joe,>Excellent point about the Irish timber situation of the period and great use of research. At the same time many Irish land owning families were disposed of their property and those who worked for them were denied use of it's resources. This scarcity explains why bog timber came into wide use for everything from harps to hobs during the Penal era. The timber problem was complicated further by several horrible winters and storms that were know to have damaged many trees in Ireland and throughout Europe towards the end of the 17th century and beginning of the 18th. For example France was hit so bitterly by cold in the early 1700's that it wiped out all the walnut trees north of the Auvergne. (Yikes...no nuts for granola!!!) This came courtesy of the fury of the "Little Age". (FYI: For a extremely written book on this topic check out Dr. Brian Fagan's " The Little Age: How Climate Made History 1300-1850". )> I've read about the hard times faced by musicians and luthiers during the Commonwealth period. Despite the official puritanical fiats against concerts, music making and theater these activities did continue "underground". The moneyed classes held private entertainments, and the common folk largely kept on as they were, but in a more discrete fashion. More high profile music makers didn't really disappear, but as you said they adapted or found other work. Many professional musicians in England emigrated to greater Europe, many instrument makers turned their skills to furniture making or similar work. Or they made instruments covertly; I came across a story of a keyboard instrument maker fearing retribution of the Roundheads was forced smuggle a newly made spinet to a client in the dead of night.> Interesting comment you made about Paraguay. Indeed there were a number of Irish emigrants to Paraguay and a number of other central American countries. The Jesuits were unusual at the time for demanding basic human rights for Indian peoples and played a vital role in preventing the horrors that befell others parts of the Americans. > >The Latin American harps bear strong resemblance to the diatonic harps that were common in Spain in the early Baroque. Their structure, playing positions, and even their tunings are all traceable to early Iberian influence. > >Their technique is interesting; many use their fingernails in a way that would work well on wire strings. Perhaps in this you have come on something Joe. Most scholars chalk up the use of fingernails amongst Latino harpers as another part of the early inheritance from Spain, but perhaps instead they were influenced in this way by Irish priests! But a word of warning...the Paraguayan harpers I know might throw their empanadas at you for saying so!!! > >The evidence for it being a native idea is quite strong. Paraguayan nail technique is virtually identical to the way they play fretted strings instruments like the guitar.> >Chad> > >__________________________________________________________>More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.>http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008>---[This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot Virus]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >_________________________________________________________________
                    >More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
                    >http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
                    >
                    ---
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                  • Jean-Luc Coulon
                    Hello, ... trees were gone (thanks to the English) by 1650 (there was a land survey to prove it, good trees in Ireland in 1600 and gone in 1650) so from this
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 14, 2008
                      Hello,

                      > Please look at wood and strings; in Ireland and Scotland the large
                      trees were gone (thanks to the English) by 1650 (there was a land
                      survey to prove it, good trees in Ireland in 1600 and gone in 1650) so
                      from this date on a "dug-out" style construction Harp Body was rether
                      difficult to achieve. From this date on, only the "Box" Body would
                      have been easy to achieve. <

                      The trees were cut to build the English fleet.
                      A typical ship in this time was using about 2,000 oaks (100 years old).
                      Species used was mostly oak for the keel, fir/pine for the masts.

                      But willow (Salix alba) didn't have any usage on a ship. It grows
                      quickly and have a short lifetime. We know cláirseach soundbox were
                      hollowed from willow. Baroque harps was using other species. It is
                      probably more matter of tradition and luthery.

                      Sure there was enough wood left, of the traditional species, to build
                      harps soundbox.

                      J-L
                    • Chad McAnally
                      Hi again Joe, Don t get me wrong, the type of research that you are doing is extremely valuable to all of us. Sometimes the smallest piece of information can
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 14, 2008
                        Hi again Joe,
                         
                        Don't get me wrong, the type of research that you are doing is extremely valuable to all of us. Sometimes the smallest piece of information can lead to a major discovery.  That there may be any link between Irish players to the Paraguayan tradition is tantalizing!! Moreover, the great spirited Latino harping traditions have a great deal to teach us Gaelic harpers as far as approach if we are willing to listen. Good luck in your quest and let us know what you find!!!
                         
                        Europe in 17th century got very messy for all involved. Many talented musicians were killed as result of the many conflicts of the time and conditions afterwards were appalling. When you look at all the upheaval of those days it's nothing short of a miracle that we have anything left to research!

                        Take care!
                        Chad
                         




                        To: clairseach@...
                        From: bigjoe@...
                        Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 06:53:02 -0500
                        Subject: RE: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp and more

                        Hi Chad

                        I think we are saying much the same thing....

                        Some Gaelic Iridh Harp makers went to the Americas, I am interested in the ones that emmigrated in the 1605 to 1650 period. But my research shows that more Gaelic Irish went to Germany and got lost in the 30 year war.

                        On Harp styles, I "would like to show" that the Gaelic Irish Harp building went to Paraguay; BUT I can not find any evidence that this happened.

                        On Harp styles, my opinion is still that a Harp is its strings and the rest is a frame to hold the strings. The strings are important in tracing the Harps history could benefit from looking what the strings are and where they could possibly come from. Also the wood is important, if the wood is not available it affects style. Also if a string material is no longer available, then the Harp maker is forced to change.

                        So I have looked a lot and not found much.

                        Joe

                        ---------- Original Message ------------ --------- --------- ----
                        From: Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@ msn.com>
                        Reply-To: clairseach@yahoogro ups.co.uk
                        Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 23:04:27 -0500

                        >
                        >Hi there Joe,
                        >There is no disputing that the Jesuits brought the harp to Paraguay as you stated! And having more harps and fewer televisions is a very good thing!!!
                        >
                        >Speaking as someone who very nearly became a Jesuit himself, I have no trouble accepting that the order was responsible for introducing the harp along side with many other Spanish instruments to the Paraguayan Indians. A certainly a large number of Irish Jesuits and Irish families no doubt were there too, as were their Spanish Jesuit counterparts. The Jesuits took genuine interest in the welfare of the native American peoples and felt it their duty to protect and educate them. The order repeatedly came to blows with officials of the Spanish crown over the Indian's treatment, a rarity in what was otherwise a terrible era for native peoples of the New World.
                        >
                        >But it is clear that these Latin American harps are direct descendants from the early baroque Spanish harp. There is little to suggest that the Gaelic harp had much influence on the Paraguayan aside of the similarities in nail technique. If the Irish clairseach of that period had been the parent of the Paraguayan harps one would expect to see things like wire strings and a much heavier frame that could tolerant their higher tension. Surviving Spanish and Portuguese baroque harps are remarkably like the harps of Paraguay, Colombia, Guatemala and Mexico.
                        >
                        >It would have been wonderful if the Clairseach had been sucessfully transplanted in the Americas but sadly this does not appear to have happened. We know of a handful of Gaelic harpers who moved to the Americans but it appear their traditions died with them. Luckily the Paraguayan harp did not suffer the same fate.
                        >
                        >Check out this beautiful website of the historical harp maker Pedro Llopis Areny, maker of amazing early style Spanish harps. His site has some great article the how the Spanish baroque harps evolved in Paraguay and the other central American countries into the folk harps used in those places.
                        >http://www.vanaga. com/arpandes/ Nassarriensis. html
                        >
                        >Take care,
                        >Chad
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >To: clairseach@yahoogro ups.co.ukFrom: bigjoe@mail. valp.netDate: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:22:18 -0500Subject: RE: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp and more
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Well ChadThe Harp is strong in Paraguay .. in the 20th Century there were more Harps than TV sets.The Paraguayan Harp was the first true Folk Harp, each Harper make their own Harp, only late 20TH Century could a "factory" built Harp be bought.The Paraguayan Harpers have a unbroken Master/Apprentice chain back to early 1600's.My Harp teacher's treacher is Paraguayan Indian and this cvontinues the chain.By the way, Father Montegue's SJ Diary (written in church latin) lists the early Jesuit Misssionarys and mentions Harp building. Also the Harp strings of his time was braded leather made fro the belly skin of female horses. The use of horse tail hair has passed out of favor.The I think that the Paraguayans will agree that a lot of their ansestry is Irish. Every Paraguayan Harper that I have talked to agrees that it was the Jesuits that brought the Harp to Paraguay.Also it is historical fact that in 1550 there were no Harps in Paraguay aned in 1650 there was thousands in the several Jesuits Missions alone.Joe--- ------- Original Message ------------ --------- --------- ----From: Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@ msn.com>Reply-To: clairseach@yahoogro ups.co.ukDate: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:00:23 -0500>>Hey Joe,>Excellent point about the Irish timber situation of the period and great use of research. At the same time many Irish land owning families were disposed of their property and those who worked for them were denied use of it's resources. This scarcity explains why bog timber came into wide use for everything from harps to hobs during the Penal era. The timber problem was complicated further by several horrible winters and storms that were know to have damaged many trees in Ireland and throughout Europe towards the end of the 17th century and beginning of the 18th. For example France was hit so bitterly by cold in the early 1700's that it wiped out all the walnut trees north of the Auvergne. (Yikes...no nuts for granola!!!) This came courtesy of the fury of the "Little Age". (FYI: For a extremely written book on this topic check out Dr. Brian Fagan's " The Little Age: How Climate Made History 1300-1850". )> I've read about the hard times faced by musicians and luthiers during the Commonwealth period. Despite the official puritanical fiats against concerts, music making and theater these activities did continue "underground" . The moneyed classes held private entertainments, and the common folk largely kept on as they were, but in a more discrete fashion. More high profile music makers didn't really disappear, but as you said they adapted or found other work. Many professional musicians in England emigrated to greater Europe, many instrument makers turned their skills to furniture making or similar work. Or they made instruments covertly; I came across a story of a keyboard instrument maker fearing retribution of the Roundheads was forced smuggle a newly made spinet to a client in the dead of night.> Interesting comment you made about Paraguay. Indeed there were a number of Irish emigrants to Paraguay and a number of other central American countries. The Jesuits were unusual at the time for demanding basic human rights for Indian peoples and played a vital role in preventing the horrors that befell others parts of the Americans. > >The Latin American harps bear strong resemblance to the diatonic harps that were common in Spain in the early Baroque. Their structure, playing positions, and even their tunings are all traceable to early Iberian influence. > >Their technique is interesting; many use their fingernails in a way that would work well on wire strings. Perhaps in this you have come on something Joe. Most scholars chalk up the use of fingernails amongst Latino harpers as another part of the early inheritance from Spain, but perhaps instead they were influenced in this way by Irish priests! But a word of warning...the Paraguayan harpers I know might throw their empanadas at you for saying so!!! > >The evidence for it being a native idea is quite strong. Paraguayan nail technique is virtually identical to the way they play fretted strings instruments like the guitar.> >Chad> > >___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __>More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.>http://www.windowsl ive.com/messenge r/overview. html?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_ 042008>---[This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot Virus]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                        >More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
                        >http://www.windowsl ive.com/messenge r/overview. html?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_ 042008
                        >
                        ---
                        [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot Virus]




                        More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
                      • Chad McAnally
                        Hi Jean Luc, Yes, there certainly were many useful trees that weren t plundered by the British Navy to build warships left in Ireland. The bigger problem is
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 14, 2008
                          Hi Jean Luc,
                           
                          Yes, there certainly were many useful trees that weren't plundered by the British Navy to build warships left in Ireland. The bigger problem is that many of the Irish during the 17th-18th centuries lost all rights to land usage. Not only could they not profit from living off the land (via farming) but couldn't harvest what was already there, like trees. What we now call "timber and mineral rights" to the land were held by new landlords and those who co-operated with them (or forced to do so for mere survival.)
                           
                          The prevailing theory is that this encouraged the use of bogwood in Ireland for making everyday items including harps. Bogwood was considered worthless by most land owners of the ascendancy, and if their tenets took it there was nothing lost in their minds. Falling a tree was equal to property theft at the time and therefore punishable. Those wishing to use new timber had to acquire it with the permission of their landlords or buy it directly from them. This varied from area to area, lord to lord some being more lax in enforcing land policy, others agressively following it. 
                           
                          Chad
                           
                           
                           
                           


                           

                          To: clairseach@...
                          From: jean.luc.coulon@...
                          Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:15:01 +0000
                          Subject: [clairseach] Re: A Belgrade made harp and more

                          Hello,

                          > Please look at wood and strings; in Ireland and Scotland the large
                          trees were gone (thanks to the English) by 1650 (there was a land
                          survey to prove it, good trees in Ireland in 1600 and gone in 1650) so
                          from this date on a "dug-out" style construction Harp Body was rether
                          difficult to achieve. From this date on, only the "Box" Body would
                          have been easy to achieve. <

                          The trees were cut to build the English fleet.
                          A typical ship in this time was using about 2,000 oaks (100 years old).
                          Species used was mostly oak for the keel, fir/pine for the masts.

                          But willow (Salix alba) didn't have any usage on a ship. It grows
                          quickly and have a short lifetime. We know cláirseach soundbox were
                          hollowed from willow. Baroque harps was using other species. It is
                          probably more matter of tradition and luthery.

                          Sure there was enough wood left, of the traditional species, to build
                          harps soundbox.

                          J-L




                          Going green? See the top 12 foods to eat organic.
                        • bigjoe
                          Hi Jean I have a little to add, all the big trees were gone in Ireland, most for the English to subdue the Irish by cvlearing out places that they could hide
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 14, 2008
                            Hi Jean

                            I have a little to add, all the big trees were gone in Ireland, most for the English to subdue the Irish by cvlearing out places that they could hide and to open up forrest for farmland.

                            A BTW for you in Ireland today there are no big trees outside of Irish National Parts. The later Gaelic Irish Harps used Sally (Like in: Down in the Sally Gardens) Sally is in the Willow family, is fast growing, wants to have its roots wet all year long and does not burn well and is useless for furnature and House Beams. American (USA) Juniper or Southern White Cedar and American Toupleo are close to Sally.

                            The Favorit Oak among the English Ship Building is Englisn Brown Oak, different from all American Oaks, unless the tree was imported from Europe. Brown Oak is strong, wear resistant, sound deadning and heavy (High density).

                            Well that is my comment!
                            Joe


                            ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                            From: "Jean-Luc Coulon" <jean.luc.coulon@...>
                            Reply-To: clairseach@...
                            Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:15:01 -0000

                            >Hello,
                            >
                            >> Please look at wood and strings; in Ireland and Scotland the large
                            >trees were gone (thanks to the English) by 1650 (there was a land
                            >survey to prove it, good trees in Ireland in 1600 and gone in 1650) so
                            >from this date on a "dug-out" style construction Harp Body was rether
                            >difficult to achieve. From this date on, only the "Box" Body would
                            >have been easy to achieve. <
                            >
                            >The trees were cut to build the English fleet.
                            >A typical ship in this time was using about 2,000 oaks (100 years old).
                            >Species used was mostly oak for the keel, fir/pine for the masts.
                            >
                            >But willow (Salix alba) didn't have any usage on a ship. It grows
                            >quickly and have a short lifetime. We know cláirseach soundbox were
                            >hollowed from willow. Baroque harps was using other species. It is
                            >probably more matter of tradition and luthery.
                            >
                            >Sure there was enough wood left, of the traditional species, to build
                            >harps soundbox.
                            >
                            >J-L
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            ---
                            [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot Virus]
                          • Jean-Luc Coulon
                            Hi Chad, Joe, Thank you for all these informations. ... a dug-out style construction Harp Body was rether difficult to achieve. From this date on, only the
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 14, 2008
                              Hi Chad, Joe,

                              Thank you for all these informations.

                              Joe was saying:
                              >good trees in Ireland in 1600 and gone in 1650) so from this date on
                              a "dug-out" style construction Harp Body was rether difficult to
                              achieve. From this date on, only the "Box" Body would have been easy
                              to achieve.<

                              So this means, I suppose, that soundboxes made of planks instead of
                              hollowed was a consequence to the lack of trees.

                              I can understand bogwood could have been used to make harps body. But
                              it is as easy to hollow it as a willow timber.

                              So I think the availability of wood and the way the soundboxes are
                              made are not tightly related.

                              Jean-Luc

                              --- In clairseach@..., Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi Jean Luc,
                              >
                              > Yes, there certainly were many useful trees that weren't plundered
                              by the British Navy to build warships left in Ireland. The bigger
                              problem is that many of the Irish during the 17th-18th centuries lost
                              all rights to land usage. Not only could they not profit from living
                              off the land (via farming) but couldn't harvest what was already
                              there, like trees. What we now call "timber and mineral rights" to the
                              land were held by new landlords and those who co-operated with them
                              (or forced to do so for mere survival.)
                              >
                              > The prevailing theory is that this encouraged the use of bogwood in
                              Ireland for making everyday items including harps. Bogwood was
                              considered worthless by most land owners of the ascendancy, and if
                              their tenets took it there was nothing lost in their minds. Falling a
                              tree was equal to property theft at the time and therefore punishable.
                              Those wishing to use new timber had to acquire it with the permission
                              of their landlords or buy it directly from them. This varied from area
                              to area, lord to lord some being more lax in enforcing land policy,
                              others agressively following it.
                              >
                              > Chad
                            • Janet Kurnick
                              I wish I could remember the website - there was a good example of wire strung latin american harps. Very lightly strung and kind of tinkly sounding.Venezuela
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 15, 2008
                                I wish I could remember the website - there was a good example of wire
                                strung latin american harps. Very lightly strung and kind of tinkly
                                sounding.Venezuela or Columbia or something - I can't remember - but
                                definitely wire strung harps. Now where did that idea come from? I could
                                well imagine that if just a few migrated to Latin America it would be pretty
                                tough to establish any kind of trend against the practices of the monks if
                                they were bringing over gut strung harp building techniques. Was there any
                                history of wirestrung harps in Spanish harp history? There is the one
                                website which shows a Bolivian harp that looks a lot like the body was
                                derived from a lute http://www.vanaga.com/arpandes/bolivia.html sounds like
                                the monks were being pretty innovative. All of this is so very interesting -
                                Janet
                              • Chad McAnally
                                Hi all, I sent this two weeks ago, I have no clue it s showing up here now! Chad To: clairseach@yahoogroups.co.ukFrom: chadmcanally@msn.comDate: Mon, 14 Apr
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 29, 2008

                                  Hi all,
                                   
                                  I sent this two weeks ago, I have no clue it's showing up here now!
                                   
                                  Chad
                                   




                                  To: clairseach@...
                                  From: chadmcanally@...
                                  Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:39:54 -0500
                                  Subject: RE: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp and more

                                  Hi again Joe,
                                   
                                  Don't get me wrong, the type of research that you are doing is extremely valuable to all of us. Sometimes the smallest piece of information can lead to a major discovery.  That there may be any link between Irish players to the Paraguayan tradition is tantalizing! ! Moreover, the great spirited Latino harping traditions have a great deal to teach us Gaelic harpers as far as approach if we are willing to listen. Good luck in your quest and let us know what you find!!!
                                   
                                  Europe in 17th century got very messy for all involved. Many talented musicians were killed as result of the many conflicts of the time and conditions afterwards were appalling. When you look at all the upheaval of those days it's nothing short of a miracle that we have anything left to research!

                                  Take care!
                                  Chad
                                   




                                  To: clairseach@yahoogro ups.co.uk
                                  From: bigjoe@mail. valp.net
                                  Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 06:53:02 -0500
                                  Subject: RE: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp and more

                                  Hi Chad

                                  I think we are saying much the same thing....

                                  Some Gaelic Iridh Harp makers went to the Americas, I am interested in the ones that emmigrated in the 1605 to 1650 period. But my research shows that more Gaelic Irish went to Germany and got lost in the 30 year war.

                                  On Harp styles, I "would like to show" that the Gaelic Irish Harp building went to Paraguay; BUT I can not find any evidence that this happened.

                                  On Harp styles, my opinion is still that a Harp is its strings and the rest is a frame to hold the strings. The strings are important in tracing the Harps history could benefit from looking what the strings are and where they could possibly come from. Also the wood is important, if the wood is not available it affects style. Also if a string material is no longer available, then the Harp maker is forced to change.

                                  So I have looked a lot and not found much.

                                  Joe

                                  ---------- Original Message ------------ --------- --------- ----
                                  From: Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@ msn.com>
                                  Reply-To: clairseach@yahoogro ups.co.uk
                                  Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 23:04:27 -0500

                                  >
                                  >Hi there Joe,
                                  >There is no disputing that the Jesuits brought the harp to Paraguay as you stated! And having more harps and fewer televisions is a very good thing!!!
                                  >
                                  >Speaking as someone who very nearly became a Jesuit himself, I have no trouble accepting that the order was responsible for introducing the harp along side with many other Spanish instruments to the Paraguayan Indians. A certainly a large number of Irish Jesuits and Irish families no doubt were there too, as were their Spanish Jesuit counterparts. The Jesuits took genuine interest in the welfare of the native American peoples and felt it their duty to protect and educate them. The order repeatedly came to blows with officials of the Spanish crown over the Indian's treatment, a rarity in what was otherwise a terrible era for native peoples of the New World.
                                  >
                                  >But it is clear that these Latin American harps are direct descendants from the early baroque Spanish harp. There is little to suggest that the Gaelic harp had much influence on the Paraguayan aside of the similarities in nail technique. If the Irish clairseach of that period had been the parent of the Paraguayan harps one would expect to see things like wire strings and a much heavier frame that could tolerant their higher tension. Surviving Spanish and Portuguese baroque harps are remarkably like the harps of Paraguay, Colombia, Guatemala and Mexico.
                                  >
                                  >It would have been wonderful if the Clairseach had been sucessfully transplanted in the Americas but sadly this does not appear to have happened. We know of a handful of Gaelic harpers who moved to the Americans but it appear their traditions died with them. Luckily the Paraguayan harp did not suffer the same fate.
                                  >
                                  >Check out this beautiful website of the historical harp maker Pedro Llopis Areny, maker of amazing early style Spanish harps. His site has some great article the how the Spanish baroque harps evolved in Paraguay and the other central American countries into the folk harps used in those places.
                                  >http://www.vanaga. com/arpandes/ Nassarriensis. html
                                  >
                                  >Take care,
                                  >Chad
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >To: clairseach@yahoogro ups.co.ukFrom: bigjoe@mail. valp.netDate: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:22:18 -0500Subject: RE: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp and more
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Well ChadThe Harp is strong in Paraguay .. in the 20th Century there were more Harps than TV sets.The Paraguayan Harp was the first true Folk Harp, each Harper make their own Harp, only late 20TH Century could a "factory" built Harp be bought.The Paraguayan Harpers have a unbroken Master/Apprentice chain back to early 1600's.My Harp teacher's treacher is Paraguayan Indian and this cvontinues the chain.By the way, Father Montegue's SJ Diary (written in church latin) lists the early Jesuit Misssionarys and mentions Harp building. Also the Harp strings of his time was braded leather made fro the belly skin of female horses. The use of horse tail hair has passed out of favor.The I think that the Paraguayans will agree that a lot of their ansestry is Irish. Every Paraguayan Harper that I have talked to agrees that it was the Jesuits that brought the Harp to Paraguay.Also it is historical fact that in 1550 there were no Harps in Paraguay aned in 1650 there was thousands in the several Jesuits Missions alone.Joe--- ------- Original Message ------------ --------- --------- ----From: Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@ msn.com>Reply-To: clairseach@yahoogro ups.co.ukDate: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:00:23 -0500>>Hey Joe,>Excellent point about the Irish timber situation of the period and great use of research. At the same time many Irish land owning families were disposed of their property and those who worked for them were denied use of it's resources. This scarcity explains why bog timber came into wide use for everything from harps to hobs during the Penal era. The timber problem was complicated further by several horrible winters and storms that were know to have damaged many trees in Ireland and throughout Europe towards the end of the 17th century and beginning of the 18th. For example France was hit so bitterly by cold in the early 1700's that it wiped out all the walnut trees north of the Auvergne. (Yikes...no nuts for granola!!!) This came courtesy of the fury of the "Little Age". (FYI: For a extremely written book on this topic check out Dr. Brian Fagan's " The Little Age: How Climate Made History 1300-1850". )> I've read about the hard times faced by musicians and luthiers during the Commonwealth period. Despite the official puritanical fiats against concerts, music making and theater these activities did continue "underground" . The moneyed classes held private entertainments, and the common folk largely kept on as they were, but in a more discrete fashion. More high profile music makers didn't really disappear, but as you said they adapted or found other work. Many professional musicians in England emigrated to greater Europe, many instrument makers turned their skills to furniture making or similar work. Or they made instruments covertly; I came across a story of a keyboard instrument maker fearing retribution of the Roundheads was forced smuggle a newly made spinet to a client in the dead of night.> Interesting comment you made about Paraguay. Indeed there were a number of Irish emigrants to Paraguay and a number of other central American countries. The Jesuits were unusual at the time for demanding basic human rights for Indian peoples and played a vital role in preventing the horrors that befell others parts of the Americans. > >The Latin American harps bear strong resemblance to the diatonic harps that were common in Spain in the early Baroque. Their structure, playing positions, and even their tunings are all traceable to early Iberian influence. > >Their technique is interesting; many use their fingernails in a way that would work well on wire strings. Perhaps in this you have come on something Joe. Most scholars chalk up the use of fingernails amongst Latino harpers as another part of the early inheritance from Spain, but perhaps instead they were influenced in this way by Irish priests! But a word of warning...the Paraguayan harpers I know might throw their empanadas at you for saying so!!! > >The evidence for it being a native idea is quite strong. Paraguayan nail technique is virtually identical to the way they play fretted strings instruments like the guitar.> >Chad> > >___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __>More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.>http://www.windowsl ive.com/messenge r/overview. html?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_ 042008>---[This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot Virus]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                  >More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
                                  >http://www.windowsl ive.com/messenge r/overview. html?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_ 042008
                                  >
                                  ---
                                  [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot Virus]




                                  More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.




                                  Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game.
                                • Alasdair Codona
                                  Chad, a charaid, Your 14 June message seems to have been regarded as spam by Yahoo groups and I ve only got round to dealing with it today. Nach gabh sibh mo
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 29, 2008
                                    Chad, a charaid,

                                    Your 14 June message seems to have been regarded as spam by Yahoo
                                    groups and I've only got round to dealing with it today.

                                    Nach gabh sibh mo lethsgeul!


                                    Alasdair



                                    --- In clairseach@..., Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi all,
                                    >
                                    > I sent this two weeks ago, I have no clue it's showing up here now!
                                    >
                                    > Chad
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To: clairseach@...: chadmcanally@...: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:39:54 -
                                    0500Subject: RE: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp and more
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi again Joe, Don't get me wrong, the type of research that you are
                                    doing is extremely valuable to all of us. Sometimes the smallest
                                    piece of information can lead to a major discovery. That there may
                                    be any link between Irish players to the Paraguayan tradition is
                                    tantalizing!! Moreover, the great spirited Latino harping traditions
                                    have a great deal to teach us Gaelic harpers as far as approach if we
                                    are willing to listen. Good luck in your quest and let us know what
                                    you find!!! Europe in 17th century got very messy for all involved.
                                    Many talented musicians were killed as result of the many conflicts
                                    of the time and conditions afterwards were appalling. When you look
                                    at all the upheaval of those days it's nothing short of a miracle
                                    that we have anything left to research! Take care!Chad
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To: clairseach@...: bigjoe@...: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 06:53:02 -
                                    0500Subject: RE: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp and more
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi ChadI think we are saying much the same thing....Some Gaelic
                                    Iridh Harp makers went to the Americas, I am interested in the ones
                                    that emmigrated in the 1605 to 1650 period. But my research shows
                                    that more Gaelic Irish went to Germany and got lost in the 30 year
                                    war.On Harp styles, I "would like to show" that the Gaelic Irish Harp
                                    building went to Paraguay; BUT I can not find any evidence that this
                                    happened.On Harp styles, my opinion is still that a Harp is its
                                    strings and the rest is a frame to hold the strings. The strings are
                                    important in tracing the Harps history could benefit from looking
                                    what the strings are and where they could possibly come from. Also
                                    the wood is important, if the wood is not available it affects style.
                                    Also if a string material is no longer available, then the Harp maker
                                    is forced to change.So I have looked a lot and not found much.Joe-----
                                    ----- Original Message ----------------------------------From: Chad
                                    McAnally <chadmcanally@...>Reply-To: clairseach@...: Sun, 13 Apr 2008
                                    23:04:27 -0500>>Hi there Joe,>There is no disputing that the Jesuits
                                    brought the harp to Paraguay as you stated! And having more harps and
                                    fewer televisions is a very good thing!!!> >Speaking as someone who
                                    very nearly became a Jesuit himself, I have no trouble accepting that
                                    the order was responsible for introducing the harp along side with
                                    many other Spanish instruments to the Paraguayan Indians. A certainly
                                    a large number of Irish Jesuits and Irish families no doubt were
                                    there too, as were their Spanish Jesuit counterparts. The Jesuits
                                    took genuine interest in the welfare of the native American peoples
                                    and felt it their duty to protect and educate them. The order
                                    repeatedly came to blows with officials of the Spanish crown over the
                                    Indian's treatment, a rarity in what was otherwise a terrible era for
                                    native peoples of the New World.> >But it is clear that these Latin
                                    American harps are direct descendants from the early baroque Spanish
                                    harp. There is little to suggest that the Gaelic harp had much
                                    influence on the Paraguayan aside of the similarities in nail
                                    technique. If the Irish clairseach of that period had been the parent
                                    of the Paraguayan harps one would expect to see things like wire
                                    strings and a much heavier frame that could tolerant their higher
                                    tension. Surviving Spanish and Portuguese baroque harps are
                                    remarkably like the harps of Paraguay, Colombia, Guatemala and
                                    Mexico.> >It would have been wonderful if the Clairseach had been
                                    sucessfully transplanted in the Americas but sadly this does not
                                    appear to have happened. We know of a handful of Gaelic harpers who
                                    moved to the Americans but it appear their traditions died with them.
                                    Luckily the Paraguayan harp did not suffer the same fate.> >Check out
                                    this beautiful website of the historical harp maker Pedro Llopis
                                    Areny, maker of amazing early style Spanish harps. His site has some
                                    great article the how the Spanish baroque harps evolved in Paraguay
                                    and the other central American countries into the folk harps used in
                                    those places.>http://www.vanaga.com/arpandes/Nassarriensis.html>
                                    >Take care,>Chad> > >>>To: clairseach@...: bigjoe@...: Sun, 13 Apr
                                    2008 17:22:18 -0500Subject: RE: [clairseach] A Belgrade made harp and
                                    more>>>>>Well ChadThe Harp is strong in Paraguay .. in the 20th
                                    Century there were more Harps than TV sets.The Paraguayan Harp was
                                    the first true Folk Harp, each Harper make their own Harp, only late
                                    20TH Century could a "factory" built Harp be bought.The Paraguayan
                                    Harpers have a unbroken Master/Apprentice chain back to early
                                    1600's.My Harp teacher's treacher is Paraguayan Indian and this
                                    cvontinues the chain.By the way, Father Montegue's SJ Diary (written
                                    in church latin) lists the early Jesuit Misssionarys and mentions
                                    Harp building. Also the Harp strings of his time was braded leather
                                    made fro the belly skin of female horses. The use of horse tail hair
                                    has passed out of favor.The I think that the Paraguayans will agree
                                    that a lot of their ansestry is Irish. Every Paraguayan Harper that I
                                    have talked to agrees that it was the Jesuits that brought the Harp
                                    to Paraguay.Also it is historical fact that in 1550 there were no
                                    Harps in Paraguay aned in 1650 there was thousands in the several
                                    Jesuits Missions alone.Joe---------- Original Message ----------------
                                    ------------------From: Chad McAnally <chadmcanally@...>Reply-To:
                                    clairseach@...: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:00:23 -0500>>Hey Joe,>Excellent
                                    point about the Irish timber situation of the period and great use of
                                    research. At the same time many Irish land owning families were
                                    disposed of their property and those who worked for them were denied
                                    use of it's resources. This scarcity explains why bog timber came
                                    into wide use for everything from harps to hobs during the Penal era.
                                    The timber problem was complicated further by several horrible
                                    winters and storms that were know to have damaged many trees in
                                    Ireland and throughout Europe towards the end of the 17th century and
                                    beginning of the 18th. For example France was hit so bitterly by cold
                                    in the early 1700's that it wiped out all the walnut trees north of
                                    the Auvergne. (Yikes...no nuts for granola!!!) This came courtesy of
                                    the fury of the "Little Age". (FYI: For a extremely written book on
                                    this topic check out Dr. Brian Fagan's " The Little Age: How Climate
                                    Made History 1300-1850". )> I've read about the hard times faced by
                                    musicians and luthiers during the Commonwealth period. Despite the
                                    official puritanical fiats against concerts, music making and theater
                                    these activities did continue "underground". The moneyed classes held
                                    private entertainments, and the common folk largely kept on as they
                                    were, but in a more discrete fashion. More high profile music makers
                                    didn't really disappear, but as you said they adapted or found other
                                    work. Many professional musicians in England emigrated to greater
                                    Europe, many instrument makers turned their skills to furniture
                                    making or similar work. Or they made instruments covertly; I came
                                    across a story of a keyboard instrument maker fearing retribution of
                                    the Roundheads was forced smuggle a newly made spinet to a client in
                                    the dead of night.> Interesting comment you made about Paraguay.
                                    Indeed there were a number of Irish emigrants to Paraguay and a
                                    number of other central American countries. The Jesuits were unusual
                                    at the time for demanding basic human rights for Indian peoples and
                                    played a vital role in preventing the horrors that befell others
                                    parts of the Americans. > >The Latin American harps bear strong
                                    resemblance to the diatonic harps that were common in Spain in the
                                    early Baroque. Their structure, playing positions, and even their
                                    tunings are all traceable to early Iberian influence. > >Their
                                    technique is interesting; many use their fingernails in a way that
                                    would work well on wire strings. Perhaps in this you have come on
                                    something Joe. Most scholars chalk up the use of fingernails amongst
                                    Latino harpers as another part of the early inheritance from Spain,
                                    but perhaps instead they were influenced in this way by Irish
                                    priests! But a word of warning...the Paraguayan harpers I know might
                                    throw their empanadas at you for saying so!!! > >The evidence for it
                                    being a native idea is quite strong. Paraguayan nail technique is
                                    virtually identical to the way they play fretted strings instruments
                                    like the guitar.> >Chad> >
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