Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[Imperial Rome] Re: Romans and Italians

Expand Messages
  • Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)
    Salvete omnes, As for the languages, Roman citizenship required a knowledge of Latin. Only the Greeks were exempted from this since the Romans considered them
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 31, 2004
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Salvete omnes,

      As for the languages, Roman citizenship required a knowledge of
      Latin. Only the Greeks were exempted from this since the Romans
      considered them more or less cultural equals. Highly educted people
      like Paul as well as merchants making their living would have known
      Latin. Now the universal language throughout the Roman Empire was
      called Coin Greek. Alexander had conquered that area some 250 years
      before so the Greek language was left as a legacy. As an famous
      example, most historians I talked to said that Pilate would most
      likely have talked to the Aramaic speaking Jesus in Greek during his
      trial. Apparently no Roman could get a magestrial position or posting
      throughout the Empire without a knowledge of Greek.

      In the northern provinces the Romans had many auxillaries in their
      legios from the various tribes of Gaul and Germania. My guess is that
      they would have learned Latin, at least on the military level VERY
      quickly just as some of us would learn French quickly if we joined
      the Foreign Legion. These people would have past that knowledge back
      to their villages etc.

      I have read other sources that the original Italian Romans and
      especially those from the city of Rome were sometimes rather redneck
      in their acceptance of other "Roman" citizens. They growled a lot and
      pressed for citizenship denial for those Socii cities and states as
      Rome expanded much like some people of North America copmlain of too
      many Asians, Middle Easterners and Africans being absorbed as
      citizens into our cultures today.

      Regards,

      Michael (QLP)
    • khakiberetman
      Let s not forget however that we are reasoning here about the Roman citizenship as it was understood in the imperial period after Augustus. Under the republic
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 1, 2004
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Let's not forget however that we are reasoning here about the
        Roman citizenship as it was understood in the imperial period
        after Augustus. Under the republic citizenship was viewed
        differently, especially because for an inordinate amount of time
        Rome still considered itself a city-state after it had practically
        ceased to be one.

        The way the Republic extended citizenship across Italy was at
        first according to strictly "ethnic" lines by founding colonies. The
        other Italic peoples were seen as distinct, and as non citizens
        were subjected to a "foreigners' law" different from the "citizens'
        law". The question of extending the citzenship emerged in the
        latter 2nd century BC at the early refusal of the Romans to extend
        that citizenship led to the "Social War" (or "War of the Allies") in
        the 90s BC

        So we can see that at first the Romans were not so universalist
        as they were to bvecole a few generations later.

        --- In imperialrome2@..., "Mary AsaWoman"
        <marys2cats@e...> wrote:
        > Yes, Paul's Roman Citizenship makes him a "Roman" as
        Romans came from all
        > over the Empire. Paul's father was a contractor who made
        tents for the Roman
        > Army and was granted citizenship as a reward for his services.
        >
        > At first, Romans were from Rome itself, but as time went on
        and citizenship
        > spread, "Roman" could not only mean a Jew, but also a
        blue-eyed blonde 6'2"
        > German from the Rhine as well, said German served as an
        auxiliary in the
        > Roman Army and thus was granted citizenship on discharge.
        His woman, also
        > blonde and blue-eyed, and he produce two sons, both of
        whom can join the
        > higher-paying legions with shorter terms of service. And are
        just as "Roman"
        > as anyone from Italy...
        >
        > The notion of the "Italian" Roman was short-lived, at best, as
        the Romans
        > extended citizenship beyond Italy after the first quarter of the
        first
        > century CE.
        >
        > Mary+cats
      • Richard
        One of the rewards of serving your time in the auxillary legions was the reward of citizenship. So even peoples from outside the empire could get citizenship.
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 1, 2004
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          One of the rewards of serving your time in the auxillary legions was
          the reward of citizenship. So even peoples from outside the empire
          could get citizenship.

          --- In imperialrome2@..., "Alex Stone"
          <alexstone87@h...> wrote:
          > Is it not the case that an awful lot of Semites from Judea (excuse
          spelling) had Roman citizenship as did lots of Galls, Britons etc etc
          etc.
          > Alex
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Larry Rasczak
          > To: imperialrome2@...
          > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 6:07 PM
          > Subject: [Imperial Rome] Re: Romans and Italians
          >
          >
          > Himmm...
          >
          > Depends on how you define "Roman" and "Italian". Since Roman
          times a
          > lot of non-Italian people moved into Italy, bringing their gene
          pool
          > with them, the Goths come to mind, so do the Vandals, Visigoths,
          > Normans, and even the Austro-Hungarian Empire for a while. I knew
          a
          > stunningly beautiful young blonde who's last name was Laurio back
          > when I was in the Army.
          >
          > Contrawise Paul of Tarsus (aka Saul aka St. Paul) was undoubtedly
          > Jewish, but he had Roman Citizenship, so I'm assuming that would
          make
          > him a "Roman" would it not?
          >
          > I am reminded of what my friend Peter Delassandro said one night
          when
          > he was making dinner for his girlfriend. She asked if he was
          > making "authentic" Italian food for them...he said "Honey, I'm
          > Italian, EVERYTHING I make is authentic Italian food!"
          >
          >
          > --- In imperialrome2@..., "John McNeill"
          > <JohnMcNeill_16@h...> wrote:
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > imperialrome2-unsubscribe@...
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
        • jachthondus
          Coming to think about it,in the end it was Caracalla who in 212CE at last granted Roman-Citizenship to the entire freeborn-population of the Empire! Jach. ...
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 1, 2004
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Coming to think about it,in the end it was Caracalla who in 212CE at
            last granted Roman-Citizenship to the entire freeborn-population of
            the Empire!

            Jach.



            --- In imperialrome2@..., khakiberetman <no_reply@y...>
            wrote:
            > Let's not forget however that we are reasoning here about the
            > Roman citizenship as it was understood in the imperial period
            > after Augustus. Under the republic citizenship was viewed
            > differently, especially because for an inordinate amount of time
            > Rome still considered itself a city-state after it had practically
            > ceased to be one.
            >
            > The way the Republic extended citizenship across Italy was at
            > first according to strictly "ethnic" lines by founding colonies.
            The
            > other Italic peoples were seen as distinct, and as non citizens
            > were subjected to a "foreigners' law" different from the "citizens'
            > law". The question of extending the citzenship emerged in the
            > latter 2nd century BC at the early refusal of the Romans to extend
            > that citizenship led to the "Social War" (or "War of the Allies")
            in
            > the 90s BC
            >
            > So we can see that at first the Romans were not so universalist
            > as they were to bvecole a few generations later.
            >
            > --- In imperialrome2@..., "Mary AsaWoman"
            > <marys2cats@e...> wrote:
            > > Yes, Paul's Roman Citizenship makes him a "Roman" as
            > Romans came from all
            > > over the Empire. Paul's father was a contractor who made
            > tents for the Roman
            > > Army and was granted citizenship as a reward for his services.
            > >
            > > At first, Romans were from Rome itself, but as time went on
            > and citizenship
            > > spread, "Roman" could not only mean a Jew, but also a
            > blue-eyed blonde 6'2"
            > > German from the Rhine as well, said German served as an
            > auxiliary in the
            > > Roman Army and thus was granted citizenship on discharge.
            > His woman, also
            > > blonde and blue-eyed, and he produce two sons, both of
            > whom can join the
            > > higher-paying legions with shorter terms of service. And are
            > just as "Roman"
            > > as anyone from Italy...
            > >
            > > The notion of the "Italian" Roman was short-lived, at best, as
            > the Romans
            > > extended citizenship beyond Italy after the first quarter of the
            > first
            > > century CE.
            > >
            > > Mary+cats
          • jachthondus
            Coming to think about it, in the end it has been Caracalla in 212CE, who granted Roman-Citizenship to the entire freeborn-population of the Empire... Jach. ...
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 1, 2004
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Coming to think about it, in the end it has been Caracalla in 212CE,
              who granted Roman-Citizenship to the entire freeborn-population of
              the Empire...

              Jach.



              --- In imperialrome2@..., khakiberetman <no_reply@y...>
              wrote:
              > Let's not forget however that we are reasoning here about the
              > Roman citizenship as it was understood in the imperial period
              > after Augustus. Under the republic citizenship was viewed
              > differently, especially because for an inordinate amount of time
              > Rome still considered itself a city-state after it had practically
              > ceased to be one.
              >
              > The way the Republic extended citizenship across Italy was at
              > first according to strictly "ethnic" lines by founding colonies.
              The
              > other Italic peoples were seen as distinct, and as non citizens
              > were subjected to a "foreigners' law" different from the "citizens'
              > law". The question of extending the citzenship emerged in the
              > latter 2nd century BC at the early refusal of the Romans to extend
              > that citizenship led to the "Social War" (or "War of the Allies")
              in
              > the 90s BC
              >
              > So we can see that at first the Romans were not so universalist
              > as they were to bvecole a few generations later.
              >
              > --- In imperialrome2@..., "Mary AsaWoman"
              > <marys2cats@e...> wrote:
              > > Yes, Paul's Roman Citizenship makes him a "Roman" as
              > Romans came from all
              > > over the Empire. Paul's father was a contractor who made
              > tents for the Roman
              > > Army and was granted citizenship as a reward for his services.
              > >
              > > At first, Romans were from Rome itself, but as time went on
              > and citizenship
              > > spread, "Roman" could not only mean a Jew, but also a
              > blue-eyed blonde 6'2"
              > > German from the Rhine as well, said German served as an
              > auxiliary in the
              > > Roman Army and thus was granted citizenship on discharge.
              > His woman, also
              > > blonde and blue-eyed, and he produce two sons, both of
              > whom can join the
              > > higher-paying legions with shorter terms of service. And are
              > just as "Roman"
              > > as anyone from Italy...
              > >
              > > The notion of the "Italian" Roman was short-lived, at best, as
              > the Romans
              > > extended citizenship beyond Italy after the first quarter of the
              > first
              > > century CE.
              > >
              > > Mary+cats
            • nancy
              Mary, Where did you get this information. I ve heard it said that there was no comments outside of Acts that Paul was a Roman Citizen. nancy in chicago
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 1, 2004
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Mary,

                Where did you get this information.  I've heard it said that there was no comments outside of "Acts" that Paul was a Roman Citizen.

                nancy in chicago

                At 07:54 PM 1/31/2004, you wrote:
                Yes, Paul's Roman Citizenship makes him a "Roman" as Romans came from all
                over the Empire. Paul's father was a contractor who made tents for the Roman
                Army and was granted citizenship as a reward for his services.
              • Mary AsaWoman
                Nancy, I honestly don t remember where I read or heard this, but I do remember that Paul s father was a tent maker for the Roman army. If somebody else can
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 1, 2004
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Nancy,
                   
                  I honestly don't remember where I read or heard this, but I do remember that Paul's father was a tent maker for the Roman army. If somebody else can fill in on this, fine. However, it still stands: Paul of Tarsus was a Roman citizen.
                   
                  Mary
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: nancy
                  Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 17:38 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Re: Romans and Italians

                  Mary,

                  Where did you get this information.  I've heard it said that there was no comments outside of "Acts" that Paul was a Roman Citizen.

                  nancy in chicago

                  At 07:54 PM 1/31/2004, you wrote:
                  Yes, Paul's Roman Citizenship makes him a "Roman" as Romans came from all
                  over the Empire. Paul's father was a contractor who made tents for the Roman
                  Army and was granted citizenship as a reward for his services.


                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  imperialrome2-unsubscribe@...





                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • Richard
                  One bit of evidence for Paul being a Roman citizen is that he appealed to the emperor and this appeal was accepted as valid. Only a citizen had this right. ...
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 2, 2004
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    One bit of evidence for Paul being a Roman citizen is that he
                    appealed to the emperor and this appeal was accepted as valid. Only a
                    citizen had this right.

                    --- In imperialrome2@..., "Mary AsaWoman"
                    <marys2cats@e...> wrote:
                    > Nancy,
                    >
                    > I honestly don't remember where I read or heard this, but I do
                    remember that Paul's father was a tent maker for the Roman army. If
                    somebody else can fill in on this, fine. However, it still stands:
                    Paul of Tarsus was a Roman citizen.
                    >
                    > Mary
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: nancy
                    > To: imperialrome2@...
                    > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 17:38 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Re: Romans and Italians
                    >
                    >
                    > Mary,
                    >
                    > Where did you get this information. I've heard it said that
                    there was no comments outside of "Acts" that Paul was a Roman Citizen.
                    >
                    > nancy in chicago
                    >
                    > At 07:54 PM 1/31/2004, you wrote:
                    >
                    > Yes, Paul's Roman Citizenship makes him a "Roman" as Romans
                    came from all
                    > over the Empire. Paul's father was a contractor who made tents
                    for the Roman
                    > Army and was granted citizenship as a reward for his services.
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > imperialrome2-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.
                  • Maria-Angela Holzman
                    Another suggestion of Paul being acknowledge as Roman citizen, he was beheaded instead of crucified. Maria-Angela ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 2, 2004
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Another suggestion of Paul  being acknowledge as Roman citizen, he was beheaded instead of crucified.
                      Maria-Angela


                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
                    • Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)
                      Salvete, And yet another piece of evidence Paul was a Roman citizen was that Governor Felix was very disturbed that Paul was flogged because it was forbidden
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 2, 2004
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Salvete,

                        And yet another piece of evidence Paul was a Roman citizen was that
                        Governor Felix was very disturbed that Paul was flogged because it
                        was forbidden to flog a Roman citizen as well as cruxcifying him.

                        Regards,

                        Quintus Lanius Paulinus





                        -- In imperialrome2@..., Maria-Angela Holzman
                        <mariaangela_calabria@y...> wrote:
                        > Another suggestion of Paul being acknowledge as Roman citizen, he
                        was beheaded instead of crucified.
                        > Maria-Angela
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
                      • nancy
                        My problem with all of this is that there is only one source, 2ndary and not always agreeing with a primary source about other specifics about Paul. Namely
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 2, 2004
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          My problem with all of this is that there is only one source, 2ndary and not always agreeing with a primary source about other specifics about Paul.  Namely the New Testament book of Acts of the Apostles (2ndary) and the primary letters that Paul sent.

                          nancy in chicago

                          At 11:17 AM 2/2/2004, you wrote:
                          Salvete,

                          And yet another piece of evidence Paul was a Roman citizen was that
                          Governor Felix was very disturbed that Paul was flogged because it
                          was forbidden to flog a Roman citizen as well as cruxcifying him.

                          Regards,

                          Quintus Lanius Paulinus





                          -- In imperialrome2@..., Maria-Angela Holzman
                          <mariaangela_calabria@y...> wrote:
                          > Another suggestion of Paul  being acknowledge as Roman citizen, he
                          was beheaded instead of crucified.
                          > Maria-Angela
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!



                          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          imperialrome2-unsubscribe@...




                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        • David Meadows
                          Greetings, Why is that a problem? What more evidence do you want? regards, dm ................................................................. David Meadows
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 2, 2004
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Greetings,

                            Why is that a problem? What more evidence do you want?

                            regards,

                            dm

                            .................................................................
                            David Meadows dmeadows-AT-idirect-DOT-com
                            .................................................................
                            "In all honesty, I only know what day it is because I read
                            rogueclassicism."
                            http://www.atrium-media.com/rogueclassicism
                            .................................................................





                            On Monday, February 2, 2004, multa scribuntur, inter alia:

                            n> My problem with all of this is that thereis only one source,
                            n> 2ndary and not always agreeing with a primary sourceabout other
                            n> specifics about Paul.  Namely the New Testament book ofActs of the
                            n> Apostles (2ndary) and the primary letters that Paulsent.

                            n> nancy in chicago

                            n> At 11:17 AM 2/2/2004, you wrote:
                            n> Salvete,

                            n> And yet another piece of evidence Paul was a Roman citizen was that
                            n> Governor Felix was very disturbed that Paul was flogged because it
                            n> was forbidden to flog a Roman citizen as well as cruxcifyinghim.

                            n> Regards,

                            n> Quintus Lanius Paulinus





                            n> -- In imperialrome2@..., Maria-Angela Holzman
                            n> <mariaangela_calabria@y...> wrote:
                            >> Another suggestion of Paul  being acknowledge as Roman citizen,he
                            n> was beheaded instead of crucified.
                            >> Maria-Angela
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ---------------------------------
                            >> Do you Yahoo!?
                            >> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!



                            n> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            n> imperialrome2-unsubscribe@...




                            n> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to theYahoo! Terms ofService.



                            n> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            n> imperialrome2-unsubscribe@...




                            n> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            n> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.