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Re: [Imperial Rome] Brut

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  • vaughan jackson
    ... Yes, Noah, the British Kings do claim their ancestry from Brut, brother of Aeneas,in the Aeneid by Virgil; who lost his way after Troy and ended up
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 1, 2005
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      --- nheck8226@... wrote:

      > Did the Merovingians claim to be descended from
      > Jesus, or was the connection drawn at a later date?
      > Similarly, didn't the Tudor King's of England at one
      > point create a complicated geneaology that showed
      > themselves not only to be descended from Jesus, but
      > also from the Trojans via a brother of Aeneas who
      > lost his way in the flight from the destruction of
      > Troy and ended up in England?
      >
      > Just Curious.
      > Noah
      >


      Yes, Noah, the British Kings do claim their ancestry
      from Brut, brother of Aeneas,in the Aeneid by Virgil;
      who lost his way after Troy and ended up founding
      Britain.




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    • khakiberetman
      An entertaining question, Noah, because actually the Merovingians claimed not to descend from Jesus but... the Trojans! This is complete legend of course, but
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 1, 2005
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        An entertaining question, Noah, because actually the Merovingians
        claimed not to descend from Jesus but... the Trojans!

        This is complete legend of course, but these stories are interesting
        and I think they are quite relevant to the group's Roman theme.

        The Merovingians, of course, were the Frankish chieftains who took
        control of northern Gaul at the end of Roman rule in the west. In
        fact these Franks had been federated into the Empire for a generation
        or two and their chiefs had often been invested with Roman military
        commands, as Clovis, the first of them to rule most of Gaul as a
        king, who had inherited a "provincial government" in "Belgica
        secunda" (The emperor Anastasius later conferred upon him the
        consulship in AD 508) So we can see the Merovingians had important
        past history with Rome.

        Their problem was establishing legitimacy for their rule, sort of as
        a continuity with Rome. Clovis was very inspired by the figure of
        Constantine, probably under the influence of the Gallo-Roman clergy
        who converted him (contrary to much assumption, this was a sincere
        and personal conversion on his part.... his warriors who went in for
        a mass baptism were indeed a more dubious lot). So much
        Merovingian "propaganda" (for want of a better word at those times)
        assimilated Clovis to a "new Constantine", thus not a barbarian
        invader of Roman lands but a Frank espousing the Roman and christian
        way of life.

        A few generations later this actually grew into a legend that the
        Franks themselves, as people, had a sort of "original ethnic link"
        with the Romans, explaining why they had romanised so easily: this
        was the idea that they descended from a Trojan called Francion, who
        had travelled westwards like Aeneas after the fall of Troy. This is
        of course the most fanciful of legends given that the Franks were
        only a confederation of Germanic warbands from present day
        northwestern Germany whom the Romans dubbed the "Franci" (The free
        ones)

        In medieval times however the kings of France relished troubadour
        songs and poems which alluded to this mythical Trojan past. The kings
        themselves took the story seriously but growing knowledge of the
        ancient past beginning at the Renaissance decisively debunked the
        myth. By the time we reach the 19th century most classical scholars
        could point to the story of Francion as pure fabrication.

        --- In imperialrome2@..., nheck8226@c... wrote:
        > Did the Merovingians claim to be descended from Jesus, or was the
        connection drawn at a later date?
      • Tim O'Neill
        I m coming in at the end of this discussion, so there is not too much I can add to what has already been said. In summary, I d say Dan Brown wouldn t know
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 6, 2005
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          I'm coming in at the end of this discussion, so there is not too
          much I can add to what has already been said. In summary, I'd say
          Dan Brown wouldn't know real historical analysis if it hit him in
          the head. As for the novel - many people enjoyed it. Hilariously
          bad 'history' aside, I also happened to find it really, really
          poorly written. But it's the people (including, it seems, the
          author) who have bought its 'history' that worry me.

          For any who are interested in comparing real history with the muddle
          of New Age nonsense that Brown serves up, check out 'The Da Vinci
          Code: Fact and Fiction' forum:

          http://p066.ezboard.com/bthedavincicodefactandfiction

          Cheers,

          Tim O'Neill
        • me-in-@disguise.co.uk
          It is not even good repetition of any number of books published over the last 15 years with dubious historical analysis.
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 7, 2005
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            It is not even good repetition of any number of books published over the last 15
            years with dubious historical analysis.

            > I'm coming in at the end of this discussion, so there is not too
            > much I can add to what has already been said. In summary, I'd say
            > Dan Brown wouldn't know real historical analysis if it hit him in
            > the head. As for the novel - many people enjoyed it. Hilariously
            > bad 'history' aside, I also happened to find it really, really
            > poorly written. But it's the people (including, it seems, the
            > author) who have bought its 'history' that worry me.
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