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Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.

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  • richard_roper
    Michael, I suggest, like Mary, you should consider an earlier period than 500AD for Rome. It was very much on a downer by then. Technically speaking the
    Message 1 of 18 , May 1, 2002
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      Michael,

      I suggest, like Mary, you should consider an earlier period than 500AD
      for Rome. It was very much on a "downer" by then. Technically speaking
      the Western Empire had fallen in 475AD., and the remaining Romans were
      in the same position as Arthur's Romans-Britons in trying to hold
      civilisation together and hold off the barbarians. The legions and
      cataphracts of Justinian are about to arrive on the scene in Italy to
      try to save civilisation, and in britain and the rest of the Western
      Empire the arrival of the legions to restore civilisation is awaited.
      The legions never came.

      Meanwhile I can only suggest a more "Roman" element to Arthur, other
      than a Stonehenge Village - say a declining Roman city - if it is
      true, and it almost certainly is, that he represented the last stand
      of the pro-Roman party.


      --- In imperialrome2@y..., "Michael G. Hamilton" <bedwyrdragon@h...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Mary-I too agree that I would like to present Rome in all it's
      spendor. I
      > also agree that Constantine is a white wash by the church-so I'm
      really not
      > interested in that at all. Of course the emergence of Arthur is
      based on
      > Romes' removal from Briton over a period of time. Romes influence
      was
      > massive in Britain and while they were present many of the great
      Celtic
      > tribes stayed either hidden or basically wiped out.
      > The Arthur Village does take some theatrical license in so far as
      not only
      > Bretons but Irish and Scots along with Celtic chieftans have joined
      with
      > Arthur and his Romano-Bretons to do battle against the Saxons
      (jutes,
      > angles, etc) Of course in fact Arthur did battle against Scots and
      Irish
      > raiders, but for the sake of what is now the UK and sponsors etc etc
      etc it
      > is best that these parties have joined together to quell the
      onslaught of
      > Saxons. Ok, with that said, what theatrical license do we have or
      should we
      > have with regard to the Roman Village? It would be helpful to be
      able to
      > tie-in the Arthur area with Rome in some way. Historically, they
      are tied
      > together but unfortunately, Rome is on the down-side by the time
      Arthur
      > appears. It is a question. Imagine a visitor to the Faire moving
      from
      > Arthur's Stonehenge Village to the Roman Village. There is
      definately a
      > connection. So had bad off was Rome during this same period?
      Wasn't
      > Hadrian long gone by 500AD? Then again, it is not absolutely
      necessary for
      > there to be a connection other than the Romano-Bretons and their
      history in
      > Britain which, if positioned and presented correctly, could be used
      to have
      > visitors go to the Roman Village to see WHERE the Roman influence in
      Britain
      > stemmed from!
      > Would like to hear more from you. Your insights are terrific as is
      your
      > command of Roman history. Thanks for taking the time to consider
      these
      > questions and concerns. Ultimately, all of this will make the
      experience of
      > visiting the Faire well worth the effort.
      > M Hamilton
      >
      > >From: Mary Harrsch <mharrsch@o...>
      > >Reply-To: imperialrome2@y...
      > >To: imperialrome2@y...
      > >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
      > >Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:26:12 -0700
      > >
      > >Michael, 500 A.D. would be much too late. I think Rome should be
      presented
      > >at a time when it was at its zenith rather than at its end. As an
      admirer
      > >of Julius Caesar I would prefer that you keep the time period as it
      is.
      > >However, if you wish to have more of a tie-in to ancient Britain,
      you could
      > >select the Claudian era (Claudius conquered Britain) or the Hadrian
      era
      > >(the builder of Hadrian's wall). I think a triumphal parade
      featuring the
      > >"Heron King" used as a ruse by Claudius to defeat the Britons (at
      least
      > >according to Robert Graves) would be colorful, humorous, and quite
      > >delightful. Of course, a stuttering, disabled emperor may not be
      the image
      > >of a Roman Emperor you wish to project.
      > >
      > >Hadrian built an expansive, elegant villa although it was built
      outside of
      > >Rome. However, I do think your Roman community should be focused
      around the
      > >Palatine Hill with the forum and temples.
      > >
      > >The period during the Pax Romana (Augustus' rule) would be
      suitable.
      > >However, Augustus did not build a palatial villa. He prided
      himself on his
      > >moderate living. Nero, however, built his opulent Golden House at
      the
      > >center of Rome (conveniently cleared out by the famous fire) but I
      would
      > >prefer an era less tainted by religious conflict just as I would
      definitely
      > >prefer a "Roman" Rome to a Christian Rome (after 325 A.D.)
      especially since
      > >I view Constantine as one of the devious, murderous emperors,
      contrary to
      > >the sanitized view of the saint presented by the church. I would
      want Rome
      > >presented in a positive light, especially in view of all of the
      > >contributions Rome made to Western Civilization, not demonized as
      it has
      > >been so often by religious conservatives.
      > >
      > >Mary Harrsch
      > >Network & Information Systems Manager
      > >College of Education
      > >University of Oregon
      > >Eugene, OR 97403
      > >(541) 346-3554
      > >http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~mharrsch
      > >
      > >Commentary Section Editor
      > >The Technology Source
      > >http://ts.mivu.org
      > >A free refereed Web periodical that focuses on infusing
      > >information technology tools in educational organizations
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Michael G. Hamilton
      > > To: imperialrome2@y...
      > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:45 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
      > >
      > >
      > > Mary-
      > > Your message is well put and loud and clear. We too feel as you
      do
      > >about
      > > turning this project into a Disney affair. If we do go the way
      of the
      > >large
      > > developers that is, I am afraid, just what it would become. A 2
      to 400
      > > million dollar investment would take this out of our control-We
      would be
      > >at
      > > the mercy of the investors. We are searching for a smaller
      presentation
      > >at
      > > 10 to 20 million. Sounds like a great deal of money, but an off
      ramp
      > >alone
      > > runs 5 million. No, we are committed to an environmentally
      sensitive
      > >site
      > > embracing the topography
      > > and making the entire experience more like a renaissance faire.
      > > Question: We are re-thinking the time period for the Roman
      Village.
      > >Now
      > > setting it around 500AD. This would allow us a better tie-in
      > >historically
      > > with the Arthur, Lyonesse and Avalon Villages. With this in
      mind, who
      > >was
      > > on the throne in Rome at this time? This would be the period
      after the
      > > legions were recalled leaving Britain exposed to the Saxon
      invasion. I
      > >now
      > > understand that the Praetorian Guard had not been created
      during the
      > >time
      > > of Julius Caesar but certainly were in existance around 500AD.
      Also,
      > > Augustus had built a villa mansion on the Palatine. Would this
      villa
      > >still
      > > be in existance in 500AD? Could we use the Palatine as a
      location for
      > >the
      > > Roman Village at the Faire? Is there any information on this
      Villa-what
      > >it
      > > might have looked like? We will therefore not use Julius Caesar
      as the
      > >main
      > > personality for the Roman Village but the emperor who was in
      command
      > >during
      > > 500AD.
      > > Indeed History, in favor of Holloywood, would be the way to go
      and yet
      > >there
      > > must be a balance between the two as we are also in the business
      of
      > > entertaining as well as educating the general public.
      > > Looking forward to hearing from you again.
      > > M Hamilton
      > >
      > >
      > > >From: Mary Harrsch <mharrsch@o...>
      > > >Reply-To: imperialrome2@y...
      > > >To: imperialrome2@y...
      > > >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
      > > >Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:56:03 -0700
      > > >
      > > >If the Faire was treated as a learning/fun experience, I would
      be very
      > >much
      > > >in favor of it. I'm afraid Disney has adversely stereotyped
      the
      > >concept of
      > > >theme park when theme parks, if treated with a careful eye on
      research,
      > >can
      > > >be an excellent, enjoyable learning environment. Members of
      our group
      > >in
      > > >Europe have the luxury of visiting ancient sites on a day trip.
      For
      > >those
      > > >of us in the other hemisphere (especially those of us on the
      west
      > >coast),
      > > >planning a trip to ancient sites in the Mediterranean amounts
      to a
      > > >financial investment and, unfortunately at present, a
      willingness to
      > >risk
      > > >our personal safety, since Americans are not the most popular
      visitors
      > >to
      > > >that part of the world right now.
      > > >
      > > >As far as Disney is concerned, I must admit their treatment of
      their
      > >newest
      > > >Orlando attraction, Disney's Animal kingdom, was a pleasant
      change from
      > >the
      > > >usual artificial treatment of subject matter in many of their
      other
      > >parks.
      > > >I enjoyed the Safari trek in open trucks through a landscape
      planted to
      > > >resemble African environments. The guides were very
      informative about
      > > >animal behaviors and there were no apparent fences or feeding
      stations
      > > >although I'm sure they were just carefully camouflaged. The
      walking
      > > >portion of the exhibit allowed me to take my time and study
      informative
      > > >displays with fossils and additional information about the
      species I
      > >was
      > > >seeing. This same approach was used in an Asian environment.
      The
      > >birds of
      > > >prey "show" not only introduced the audience to rare bird
      species but
      > > >provided a question and answer time with the biologists at the
      end of
      > >the
      > > >demonstrations . There obviously were some child-oriented
      productions
      > >but,
      > > >surprisingly, these did not dominate the park's focus.
      > > >
      > > >If the creators of the Mythological Fantasy Faire remember that
      their
      > > >target audience primarily prefers history to hollywood, it
      should be
      > >quite
      > > >successful.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >Mary Harrsch
      > > >Network & Information Systems Manager
      > > >College of Education
      > > >University of Oregon
      > > >Eugene, OR 97403
      > > >(541) 346-3554
      > > >http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~mharrsch
      > > >
      > > >Commentary Section Editor
      > > >The Technology Source
      > > >http://ts.mivu.org
      > > >A free refereed Web periodical that focuses on infusing
      > > >information technology tools in educational organizations
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: VaccAttak@a...
      > > > To: imperialrome2@y...
      > > > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 8:42 PM
      > > > Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I would hate to see ancient history turned into a Disney
      World. All
      > >the
      > > >tourism in Rome already pushes the borderline if not steps over
      it and
      > >this
      > > >saddens me.
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > imperialrome2-unsubscribe@y...
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      Service.
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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    • khakiberetman
      You could probably build replicas of Late Roman villas such as existed in Britain in the Third or Fourth century... Many were destroyed during the first raids
      Message 2 of 18 , May 1, 2002
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        You could probably build replicas of Late Roman villas such as
        existed in Britain in the Third or Fourth century... Many were
        destroyed during the first raids by Saxons and Picts, but some could
        still be visible during the time of Arthur... These villas were
        usually enclosed conmpounds, and in the Late Roman era, many were
        fortified and so became prototypes for medieval-era monasteries or
        castles. Thus, the tie-in effect you are seeking would come out well,
        although you could shopw the architectural contrast between the Roman
        and Anglo-Saxon periods in terms of building materials

        The Roman villas still looked distinctly mediterranean in appearance,
        built in stone and roofed in tile.
        They would also have ornate gardens and fountains, and much more
        inner decoration.
      • gauiscaecilius
        ... about ... the large ... 400 ... would be at ... presentation at ... ramp alone ... sensitive site ... Village. Now ... historically ... who was ... the
        Message 3 of 18 , May 1, 2002
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          --- In imperialrome2@y..., "Michael G. Hamilton" <bedwyrdragon@h...>
          wrote:
          > Mary-
          > Your message is well put and loud and clear. We too feel as you do
          about
          > turning this project into a Disney affair. If we do go the way of
          the large
          > developers that is, I am afraid, just what it would become. A 2 to
          400
          > million dollar investment would take this out of our control-We
          would be at
          > the mercy of the investors. We are searching for a smaller
          presentation at
          > 10 to 20 million. Sounds like a great deal of money, but an off
          ramp alone
          > runs 5 million. No, we are committed to an environmentally
          sensitive site
          > embracing the topography
          > and making the entire experience more like a renaissance faire.
          > Question: We are re-thinking the time period for the Roman
          Village. Now
          > setting it around 500AD. This would allow us a better tie-in
          historically
          > with the Arthur, Lyonesse and Avalon Villages. With this in mind,
          who was
          > on the throne in Rome at this time? This would be the period after
          the
          > legions were recalled leaving Britain exposed to the Saxon
          invasion. I now
          > understand that the Praetorian Guard had not been created during
          the time
          > of Julius Caesar but certainly were in existance around 500AD.
          Also,
          > Augustus had built a villa mansion on the Palatine. Would this
          villa still
          > be in existance in 500AD? Could we use the Palatine as a location
          for the
          > Roman Village at the Faire? Is there any information on this Villa-
          what it
          > might have looked like? We will therefore not use Julius Caesar as
          the main
          > personality for the Roman Village but the emperor who was in
          command during
          > 500AD.
          > Indeed History, in favor of Holloywood, would be the way to go and
          yet there
          > must be a balance between the two as we are also in the business of
          > entertaining as well as educating the general public.
          > Looking forward to hearing from you again.
          > M Hamilton

          I must say that your project seems interesting. To answer your
          questions about Roman Villas circa 500AD then it depends where you
          are talking about. If Italy and the Mediterranean then villas estates
          still existed in 500AD even though the Western empire was effectively
          gone. If you are talking about the Celtic fringe of Lyonesse and
          Arthur then villas had ceased to exist. If a historical Arthur did
          exist he lived in the times when the Pax Romanum had collapsed in the
          north but memories survived. The first to go wree the Roman towns and
          villas. However Arthur was quite possibly the last vestage of
          civilisation somewhere in the west of Britain or Brittany (Britain
          note not England). A source of information for you would be English
          Heritage who maintain the majority of relevant sites and are
          extremally good at presenting them for the public. Their web site is
          http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/ (also in our bookmarks.)
        • Michael G. Hamilton
          Jach-Good Points-thank you. In fact the first 5 Villages of the Myth Faire are phase one of this project. We had intended ,in phase 2, to add ancient Egypt,
          Message 4 of 18 , May 1, 2002
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            Jach-Good Points-thank you. In fact the first 5 Villages of the Myth Faire
            are phase one of this project. We had intended ,in phase 2, to add ancient
            Egypt, The Barbarians and Pirates. Each Villages should be approximately 30
            acres. I do agree also that I would like to present Rome in its glory. Now
            please remember, we are not rebuilding the city-It would costs millions to
            do so. We want to simply build the mountain villa, the gladiators circus
            and the other items as outlined in the Roman Village descriptions. This
            particular Village should run in the $1.5M range. We believe that the
            entire park will run between $15 to $20 million. We don't want the park to
            be all cement and neon and cotten candy and rides-quite the contrary, we
            want this space to be environmentally sensitive using the topography to
            enhance the overall experience. This is one reason, among others, that we
            chose to be "outside" of Rome. The buildings may, in fact, wind up being
            mostly facade so that we can keep costs under control spending money on
            actors, costumes, props, directors, the galdiators circus and some of the
            other pieces of the village necessary to create and maintain the overall
            experience and effect. Again, the 30 to 50 vendors and their booths-set in
            the style of an ancient roman marketplace will help add to the experience as
            well.


            >From: jachthondus <no_reply@...>
            >Reply-To: imperialrome2@...
            >To: imperialrome2@...
            >Subject: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
            >Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 12:43:16 -0000
            >
            >Hi, Michael,
            >
            >Reading all messages about this item, I asked myself which period of
            >the Ancient-Roman-History I would like to "bring-alive" in "my" park
            >to build-up, in America...
            >
            >It certainly would be Rome on the HIGHPOINT of it's so-called "silver-
            >and-golden-Age: Julius Caesar; Augustus; the Flavian-Emperors...
            >(Absolutely not: the 6th-century). The decay and the stressy-
            >defending of the Empire had gone too far by-then, if you ask me!
            >
            >And Mary has a point, when she says that it is not always so easy for
            >people, (living in the US), to travel to Rome, f.i.,in order to see
            >those beautiful remains, for themselves. So one should bring the
            >Roman-Empire, (in it's glory-time), to the US, instead)!
            >
            >Why not just start with THIS, before extending the park with King
            >Arthur, Stone Hendge, etc.?
            >(There is a proverb here in Holland, which says: "Cologne and Aachen
            >haven't been built in one-days-time")...
            >
            >Do make-sure that you'll get enough land-room-and-space for the
            >future!
            >
            >Greetings, Jach.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


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          • Michael G. Hamilton
            ... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
            Message 5 of 18 , May 1, 2002
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              >From: "gauiscaecilius" <gauiscaecilius@...>
              >Reply-To: imperialrome2@...
              >To: imperialrome2@...
              >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
              >Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 12:00:19 -0000
              >
              >--- In imperialrome2@y..., "Michael G. Hamilton" <bedwyrdragon@h...>
              >wrote:
              > > Mary-
              > > Your message is well put and loud and clear. We too feel as you do
              >about
              > > turning this project into a Disney affair. If we do go the way of
              >the large
              > > developers that is, I am afraid, just what it would become. A 2 to
              >400
              > > million dollar investment would take this out of our control-We
              >would be at
              > > the mercy of the investors. We are searching for a smaller
              >presentation at
              > > 10 to 20 million. Sounds like a great deal of money, but an off
              >ramp alone
              > > runs 5 million. No, we are committed to an environmentally
              >sensitive site
              > > embracing the topography
              > > and making the entire experience more like a renaissance faire.
              > > Question: We are re-thinking the time period for the Roman
              >Village. Now
              > > setting it around 500AD. This would allow us a better tie-in
              >historically
              > > with the Arthur, Lyonesse and Avalon Villages. With this in mind,
              >who was
              > > on the throne in Rome at this time? This would be the period after
              >the
              > > legions were recalled leaving Britain exposed to the Saxon
              >invasion. I now
              > > understand that the Praetorian Guard had not been created during
              >the time
              > > of Julius Caesar but certainly were in existance around 500AD.
              >Also,
              > > Augustus had built a villa mansion on the Palatine. Would this
              >villa still
              > > be in existance in 500AD? Could we use the Palatine as a location
              >for the
              > > Roman Village at the Faire? Is there any information on this Villa-
              >what it
              > > might have looked like? We will therefore not use Julius Caesar as
              >the main
              > > personality for the Roman Village but the emperor who was in
              >command during
              > > 500AD.
              > > Indeed History, in favor of Holloywood, would be the way to go and
              >yet there
              > > must be a balance between the two as we are also in the business of
              > > entertaining as well as educating the general public.
              > > Looking forward to hearing from you again.
              > > M Hamilton
              >
              >I must say that your project seems interesting. To answer your
              >questions about Roman Villas circa 500AD then it depends where you
              >are talking about. If Italy and the Mediterranean then villas estates
              >still existed in 500AD even though the Western empire was effectively
              >gone.(THIS IS THE AREA I SPEAK OF. COULD WE PRESENT A VILLA-OUTSIDE OF THE
              >CITY OF ROME IN 500AD WHERE THE CURRENT EMPEROR-WOULD SPEND SOME OF HIS
              >TIME-A GET A-WAY? THE PRESUMPTION AS OUTLINED IN THE ROMAN VILLAGE
              >DESCRIPTION AT THE MYTHVILLAGES.COM SITE) If you are talking about the
              >Celtic fringe of Lyonesse and
              >Arthur then villas had ceased to exist.(TRUE ENOUGH-MANY OF THE VILLAS AND
              >FINE BUILDING CREATED DURING THE ROMAN OCCUPATION OF BRITAIN HAD BEEN
              >DISMANTLED-MARBLE, AND STONE USED FOR OTHER THINGS-BRITAIN WAS A MESS AFTER
              >ROME RECALLED ITS LEGIONS) If a historical Arthur did
              >exist(I FOR ONE FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT HE DID-PERHAPS NOT A KING AND
              >CERTAINLLY NOT THE WAY THE CHURCH AND THE POETS HAVE TRIED TO PRESENT
              >HIM-BUT MORE AS A WARRIOR TRYING TO DEFEND HIS COUNTRY FROM SAXON INVASION)
              >he lived in the times when the Pax Romanum had collapsed in the
              >north but memories survived. The first to go wree the Roman towns and
              >villas. However Arthur was quite possibly the last vestage of
              >civilisation somewhere in the west of Britain or Brittany (Britain
              >note not England). A source of information for you would be English
              >Heritage(THEY ARE INDEED A WONDERFUL SOURCE AS IS GEOFFERY ASHE AND SEVERAL
              >OTHERS) who maintain the majority of relevant sites and are
              >extremally good at presenting them for the public. Their web site is
              >http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/ (also in our bookmarks.)
              >THANK YOU!


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            • Michael G. Hamilton
              I THINK I MAY HAVE CONFUSED SOME FOLKS HERE-AND I M SORRY FOR NOT BEING CLEARER. THE VILLA WE ARE PROPOSING WOULD BE LOCATED IN THE ROMAN VILLAGE-I GUESS MY
              Message 6 of 18 , May 1, 2002
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                I THINK I MAY HAVE CONFUSED SOME FOLKS HERE-AND I'M SORRY FOR NOT BEING
                CLEARER.
                THE VILLA WE ARE PROPOSING WOULD BE LOCATED IN THE ROMAN VILLAGE-I GUESS MY
                QUESTION IS-DID THESE VILLAS EXIST IN ROME AT 500AD AND IF SO, WOULD THE
                EMPEROR (WHOEVER THAT WAS) USE THIS PLACE AS A WEEKEND RETREAT OF SORTS?
                AND, WHO WAS ON THE EMPEROR DURING 500AD?
                IT WOULD APPEAR THAT HOWEVER, ROME WAS ON THE DOWNSLIDE AT THIS POINT OF
                THEIR HISTORY AND THE PROBLEM IS THAT I WANT TO PRESENT OUR ROMAN VILLAGE
                DURING ROMES GLORY DAYS. THEREFORE IT MIGHT NOT MAKE SENSE TO SET OUR ROMAN
                VILLAGE AT 500AD BUT PERHAPS MUCH EARLIER DURING THE REIGN OF AUGUSTUS OR
                CEASAR. WHAT DO YOU THINK?
                >From: khakiberetman <no_reply@...>
                >Reply-To: imperialrome2@...
                >To: imperialrome2@...
                >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                >Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 10:19:58 -0000
                >
                >You could probably build replicas of Late Roman villas such as
                >existed in Britain in the Third or Fourth century... Many were
                >destroyed during the first raids by Saxons and Picts, but some could
                >still be visible during the time of Arthur... These villas were
                >usually enclosed conmpounds, and in the Late Roman era, many were
                >fortified and so became prototypes for medieval-era monasteries or
                >castles. Thus, the tie-in effect you are seeking would come out well,
                >although you could shopw the architectural contrast between the Roman
                >and Anglo-Saxon periods in terms of building materials
                >
                >The Roman villas still looked distinctly mediterranean in appearance,
                >built in stone and roofed in tile.
                >They would also have ornate gardens and fountains, and much more
                >inner decoration.
                >
                >


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              • Michael G. Hamilton
                GOOD POINTS AND THANK YOU. HOWEVER, MARKETING AND PROMOTION (IMPORTANT THEY ARE INDEED) DICTATES THAT STONEHENGE IS THE FOCAL POINT FOR THE ARTHUR VILLAGE. I
                Message 7 of 18 , May 1, 2002
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                  GOOD POINTS AND THANK YOU. HOWEVER, MARKETING AND PROMOTION (IMPORTANT THEY
                  ARE INDEED) DICTATES THAT STONEHENGE IS THE FOCAL POINT FOR THE ARTHUR
                  VILLAGE. I DO ABSOLUTELY AGREE-ARTHUR WAS DEFINATELY OF ROMANO-BRETON
                  STOCK-ALL OF HIS TRAINING AND BATTLE TACTICS (AS BEST AS WE CAN TELL) SHOW
                  STRONG ROMAN INFLUENCES. I AM JUST TRYING TO SEE IF THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH
                  WE CAN CREATE A CLOSER TIE BETWEEN THE PERIOD OF ARTHUR IN BRITAIN AND THE
                  SAME PERIOD IN ROME. THIS WILL GIVE VISITORS PERHAPS A SOMEWAHT MORE DIRECT
                  CONNECTION BETWEEN WHO ARTHUR IS AND WHY HE IS THE WAY HE IS-IN OTHER WORDS
                  THE DIRECT ROMAN INFLUENCE.
                  I AM TRYING TO DISPEL THE NOTION OF THE LEGEND OF ARTHUR WITH LANCELOT AND
                  THE HOLY GRAIL AND ALL OF THAT SWEET SILLINESS AND INSTEAD PRESENT ARTHUR IN
                  A MORE HISTORICAL LIGHT. IN CONNECTING HIM WITH ROME AND ITS INFLUENCES I
                  FEEL I AM BEING SOMEWHAT MORE TRUE TO THE HISITORICAL FIGURE AS WE TRY TO
                  NOT ONLY ENTERTAIN BUT EDUCATE TO A CERTAIN DEGREE.

                  >From: richard_roper <no_reply@...>
                  >Reply-To: imperialrome2@...
                  >To: imperialrome2@...
                  >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                  >Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 09:45:13 -0000
                  >
                  >Michael,
                  >
                  >I suggest, like Mary, you should consider an earlier period than 500AD
                  >for Rome. It was very much on a "downer" by then. Technically speaking
                  >the Western Empire had fallen in 475AD., and the remaining Romans were
                  >in the same position as Arthur's Romans-Britons in trying to hold
                  >civilisation together and hold off the barbarians. The legions and
                  >cataphracts of Justinian are about to arrive on the scene in Italy to
                  >try to save civilisation, and in britain and the rest of the Western
                  >Empire the arrival of the legions to restore civilisation is awaited.
                  >The legions never came.
                  >
                  >Meanwhile I can only suggest a more "Roman" element to Arthur, other
                  >than a Stonehenge Village - say a declining Roman city - if it is
                  >true, and it almost certainly is, that he represented the last stand
                  >of the pro-Roman party.
                  >
                  >
                  >--- In imperialrome2@y..., "Michael G. Hamilton" <bedwyrdragon@h...>
                  >wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Mary-I too agree that I would like to present Rome in all it's
                  >spendor. I
                  > > also agree that Constantine is a white wash by the church-so I'm
                  >really not
                  > > interested in that at all. Of course the emergence of Arthur is
                  >based on
                  > > Romes' removal from Briton over a period of time. Romes influence
                  >was
                  > > massive in Britain and while they were present many of the great
                  >Celtic
                  > > tribes stayed either hidden or basically wiped out.
                  > > The Arthur Village does take some theatrical license in so far as
                  >not only
                  > > Bretons but Irish and Scots along with Celtic chieftans have joined
                  >with
                  > > Arthur and his Romano-Bretons to do battle against the Saxons
                  >(jutes,
                  > > angles, etc) Of course in fact Arthur did battle against Scots and
                  >Irish
                  > > raiders, but for the sake of what is now the UK and sponsors etc etc
                  >etc it
                  > > is best that these parties have joined together to quell the
                  >onslaught of
                  > > Saxons. Ok, with that said, what theatrical license do we have or
                  >should we
                  > > have with regard to the Roman Village? It would be helpful to be
                  >able to
                  > > tie-in the Arthur area with Rome in some way. Historically, they
                  >are tied
                  > > together but unfortunately, Rome is on the down-side by the time
                  >Arthur
                  > > appears. It is a question. Imagine a visitor to the Faire moving
                  >from
                  > > Arthur's Stonehenge Village to the Roman Village. There is
                  >definately a
                  > > connection. So had bad off was Rome during this same period?
                  >Wasn't
                  > > Hadrian long gone by 500AD? Then again, it is not absolutely
                  >necessary for
                  > > there to be a connection other than the Romano-Bretons and their
                  >history in
                  > > Britain which, if positioned and presented correctly, could be used
                  >to have
                  > > visitors go to the Roman Village to see WHERE the Roman influence in
                  >Britain
                  > > stemmed from!
                  > > Would like to hear more from you. Your insights are terrific as is
                  >your
                  > > command of Roman history. Thanks for taking the time to consider
                  >these
                  > > questions and concerns. Ultimately, all of this will make the
                  >experience of
                  > > visiting the Faire well worth the effort.
                  > > M Hamilton
                  > >
                  > > >From: Mary Harrsch <mharrsch@o...>
                  > > >Reply-To: imperialrome2@y...
                  > > >To: imperialrome2@y...
                  > > >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                  > > >Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:26:12 -0700
                  > > >
                  > > >Michael, 500 A.D. would be much too late. I think Rome should be
                  >presented
                  > > >at a time when it was at its zenith rather than at its end. As an
                  >admirer
                  > > >of Julius Caesar I would prefer that you keep the time period as it
                  >is.
                  > > >However, if you wish to have more of a tie-in to ancient Britain,
                  >you could
                  > > >select the Claudian era (Claudius conquered Britain) or the Hadrian
                  >era
                  > > >(the builder of Hadrian's wall). I think a triumphal parade
                  >featuring the
                  > > >"Heron King" used as a ruse by Claudius to defeat the Britons (at
                  >least
                  > > >according to Robert Graves) would be colorful, humorous, and quite
                  > > >delightful. Of course, a stuttering, disabled emperor may not be
                  >the image
                  > > >of a Roman Emperor you wish to project.
                  > > >
                  > > >Hadrian built an expansive, elegant villa although it was built
                  >outside of
                  > > >Rome. However, I do think your Roman community should be focused
                  >around the
                  > > >Palatine Hill with the forum and temples.
                  > > >
                  > > >The period during the Pax Romana (Augustus' rule) would be
                  >suitable.
                  > > >However, Augustus did not build a palatial villa. He prided
                  >himself on his
                  > > >moderate living. Nero, however, built his opulent Golden House at
                  >the
                  > > >center of Rome (conveniently cleared out by the famous fire) but I
                  >would
                  > > >prefer an era less tainted by religious conflict just as I would
                  >definitely
                  > > >prefer a "Roman" Rome to a Christian Rome (after 325 A.D.)
                  >especially since
                  > > >I view Constantine as one of the devious, murderous emperors,
                  >contrary to
                  > > >the sanitized view of the saint presented by the church. I would
                  >want Rome
                  > > >presented in a positive light, especially in view of all of the
                  > > >contributions Rome made to Western Civilization, not demonized as
                  >it has
                  > > >been so often by religious conservatives.
                  > > >
                  > > >Mary Harrsch
                  > > >Network & Information Systems Manager
                  > > >College of Education
                  > > >University of Oregon
                  > > >Eugene, OR 97403
                  > > >(541) 346-3554
                  > > >http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~mharrsch
                  > > >
                  > > >Commentary Section Editor
                  > > >The Technology Source
                  > > >http://ts.mivu.org
                  > > >A free refereed Web periodical that focuses on infusing
                  > > >information technology tools in educational organizations
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: Michael G. Hamilton
                  > > > To: imperialrome2@y...
                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:45 AM
                  > > > Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Mary-
                  > > > Your message is well put and loud and clear. We too feel as you
                  >do
                  > > >about
                  > > > turning this project into a Disney affair. If we do go the way
                  >of the
                  > > >large
                  > > > developers that is, I am afraid, just what it would become. A 2
                  >to 400
                  > > > million dollar investment would take this out of our control-We
                  >would be
                  > > >at
                  > > > the mercy of the investors. We are searching for a smaller
                  >presentation
                  > > >at
                  > > > 10 to 20 million. Sounds like a great deal of money, but an off
                  >ramp
                  > > >alone
                  > > > runs 5 million. No, we are committed to an environmentally
                  >sensitive
                  > > >site
                  > > > embracing the topography
                  > > > and making the entire experience more like a renaissance faire.
                  > > > Question: We are re-thinking the time period for the Roman
                  >Village.
                  > > >Now
                  > > > setting it around 500AD. This would allow us a better tie-in
                  > > >historically
                  > > > with the Arthur, Lyonesse and Avalon Villages. With this in
                  >mind, who
                  > > >was
                  > > > on the throne in Rome at this time? This would be the period
                  >after the
                  > > > legions were recalled leaving Britain exposed to the Saxon
                  >invasion. I
                  > > >now
                  > > > understand that the Praetorian Guard had not been created
                  >during the
                  > > >time
                  > > > of Julius Caesar but certainly were in existance around 500AD.
                  >Also,
                  > > > Augustus had built a villa mansion on the Palatine. Would this
                  >villa
                  > > >still
                  > > > be in existance in 500AD? Could we use the Palatine as a
                  >location for
                  > > >the
                  > > > Roman Village at the Faire? Is there any information on this
                  >Villa-what
                  > > >it
                  > > > might have looked like? We will therefore not use Julius Caesar
                  >as the
                  > > >main
                  > > > personality for the Roman Village but the emperor who was in
                  >command
                  > > >during
                  > > > 500AD.
                  > > > Indeed History, in favor of Holloywood, would be the way to go
                  >and yet
                  > > >there
                  > > > must be a balance between the two as we are also in the business
                  >of
                  > > > entertaining as well as educating the general public.
                  > > > Looking forward to hearing from you again.
                  > > > M Hamilton
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > >From: Mary Harrsch <mharrsch@o...>
                  > > > >Reply-To: imperialrome2@y...
                  > > > >To: imperialrome2@y...
                  > > > >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                  > > > >Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:56:03 -0700
                  > > > >
                  > > > >If the Faire was treated as a learning/fun experience, I would
                  >be very
                  > > >much
                  > > > >in favor of it. I'm afraid Disney has adversely stereotyped
                  >the
                  > > >concept of
                  > > > >theme park when theme parks, if treated with a careful eye on
                  >research,
                  > > >can
                  > > > >be an excellent, enjoyable learning environment. Members of
                  >our group
                  > > >in
                  > > > >Europe have the luxury of visiting ancient sites on a day trip.
                  > For
                  > > >those
                  > > > >of us in the other hemisphere (especially those of us on the
                  >west
                  > > >coast),
                  > > > >planning a trip to ancient sites in the Mediterranean amounts
                  >to a
                  > > > >financial investment and, unfortunately at present, a
                  >willingness to
                  > > >risk
                  > > > >our personal safety, since Americans are not the most popular
                  >visitors
                  > > >to
                  > > > >that part of the world right now.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >As far as Disney is concerned, I must admit their treatment of
                  >their
                  > > >newest
                  > > > >Orlando attraction, Disney's Animal kingdom, was a pleasant
                  >change from
                  > > >the
                  > > > >usual artificial treatment of subject matter in many of their
                  >other
                  > > >parks.
                  > > > >I enjoyed the Safari trek in open trucks through a landscape
                  >planted to
                  > > > >resemble African environments. The guides were very
                  >informative about
                  > > > >animal behaviors and there were no apparent fences or feeding
                  >stations
                  > > > >although I'm sure they were just carefully camouflaged. The
                  >walking
                  > > > >portion of the exhibit allowed me to take my time and study
                  >informative
                  > > > >displays with fossils and additional information about the
                  >species I
                  > > >was
                  > > > >seeing. This same approach was used in an Asian environment.
                  >The
                  > > >birds of
                  > > > >prey "show" not only introduced the audience to rare bird
                  >species but
                  > > > >provided a question and answer time with the biologists at the
                  >end of
                  > > >the
                  > > > >demonstrations . There obviously were some child-oriented
                  >productions
                  > > >but,
                  > > > >surprisingly, these did not dominate the park's focus.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >If the creators of the Mythological Fantasy Faire remember that
                  >their
                  > > > >target audience primarily prefers history to hollywood, it
                  >should be
                  > > >quite
                  > > > >successful.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >Mary Harrsch
                  > > > >Network & Information Systems Manager
                  > > > >College of Education
                  > > > >University of Oregon
                  > > > >Eugene, OR 97403
                  > > > >(541) 346-3554
                  > > > >http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~mharrsch
                  > > > >
                  > > > >Commentary Section Editor
                  > > > >The Technology Source
                  > > > >http://ts.mivu.org
                  > > > >A free refereed Web periodical that focuses on infusing
                  > > > >information technology tools in educational organizations
                  > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > > From: VaccAttak@a...
                  > > > > To: imperialrome2@y...
                  > > > > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 8:42 PM
                  > > > > Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I would hate to see ancient history turned into a Disney
                  >World. All
                  > > >the
                  > > > >tourism in Rome already pushes the borderline if not steps over
                  >it and
                  > > >this
                  > > > >saddens me.
                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > > imperialrome2-unsubscribe@y...
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  >Service.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
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                • richard_roper
                  Yes, there is a way of linking the Roman element with the Celtic one. The Sword. Remember the Romans were always happy to adopt local religious influences and
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 1, 2002
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                    Yes, there is a way of linking the Roman element with the Celtic one.

                    The Sword.

                    Remember the Romans were always happy to adopt local religious
                    influences and deities and link them with their own.

                    Brid, Bridig, there are various versions of the name was the Celtic
                    goddess of fire, and of the smithy and the forge. This had been lost
                    in the Classical pantheon but retained in the Celtic one. So it is
                    highly probable that the origin of the sword story lies in a sword
                    being presented to Arthur dedicated to Brid, and made by smiths with a
                    shrine to her at their mine/forge. Brid is inseperably linked to the
                    "Lady of the Lake" part of the story. Aquae Sulis, bath was also
                    dedicated to her as the godess of springs. You may like this with your
                    celtic link, which i assume from your e-mail identity.

                    I will look out the links.

                    This means abandoning Stonehenge, but you could link it to Glastonbury
                    and the then probably still standing stone circle on top of the hill.
                    I know this is linked to the Holy Grail medieval myth, but there is
                    good reason to link the historic Arthur with that part of the world.
                    There were in any case many stone circles, even if Stonehenge is the
                    most famous in the US.

                    The strategic spread of the Roman roads from the Corinium-
                    Glenvum-Aquae Sulis area make it apparant that he must have used them
                    to deploy his army rapidly and could only do it from this location.

                    Links with Rome as such in 500AD. are a bit of a problem, but you
                    could emphasis how Romanised the "Roman Island" actually was, and how
                    sophisticated the Roman cities were - the recent dig in london dug up
                    the Amphitheatre foundations, and army of a twice life size bronze
                    statue and a system for raising water for the baths.

                    I think that details of East Rome and in a few years justinian would
                    try to have the legions reconquer the Western Empire are a bit too way
                    out for the average audience.

                    But in 500 "Arthur" seems to have been in the middle of his campaigns
                    to stop the saxons advancing out of South eastern England where the
                    beachhead was. Bladon is usually put around 517 and Camlann around
                    537.




                    --- In imperialrome2@y..., "Michael G. Hamilton" <bedwyrdragon@h...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > GOOD POINTS AND THANK YOU. HOWEVER, MARKETING AND PROMOTION
                    (IMPORTANT THEY
                    > ARE INDEED) DICTATES THAT STONEHENGE IS THE FOCAL POINT FOR THE
                    ARTHUR
                    > VILLAGE. I DO ABSOLUTELY AGREE-ARTHUR WAS DEFINATELY OF
                    ROMANO-BRETON
                    > STOCK-ALL OF HIS TRAINING AND BATTLE TACTICS (AS BEST AS WE CAN
                    TELL) SHOW
                    > STRONG ROMAN INFLUENCES. I AM JUST TRYING TO SEE IF THERE IS A WAY
                    IN WHICH
                    > WE CAN CREATE A CLOSER TIE BETWEEN THE PERIOD OF ARTHUR IN BRITAIN
                    AND THE
                    > SAME PERIOD IN ROME. THIS WILL GIVE VISITORS PERHAPS A SOMEWAHT
                    MORE DIRECT
                    > CONNECTION BETWEEN WHO ARTHUR IS AND WHY HE IS THE WAY HE IS-IN
                    OTHER WORDS
                    > THE DIRECT ROMAN INFLUENCE.
                    > I AM TRYING TO DISPEL THE NOTION OF THE LEGEND OF ARTHUR WITH
                    LANCELOT AND
                    > THE HOLY GRAIL AND ALL OF THAT SWEET SILLINESS AND INSTEAD PRESENT
                    ARTHUR IN
                    > A MORE HISTORICAL LIGHT. IN CONNECTING HIM WITH ROME AND ITS
                    INFLUENCES I
                    > FEEL I AM BEING SOMEWHAT MORE TRUE TO THE HISITORICAL FIGURE AS WE
                    TRY TO
                    > NOT ONLY ENTERTAIN BUT EDUCATE TO A CERTAIN DEGREE.
                    >
                    > >From: richard_roper <no_reply@y...>
                    > >Reply-To: imperialrome2@y...
                    > >To: imperialrome2@y...
                    > >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                    > >Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 09:45:13 -0000
                    > >
                    > >Michael,
                    > >
                    > >I suggest, like Mary, you should consider an earlier period than
                    500AD
                    > >for Rome. It was very much on a "downer" by then. Technically
                    speaking
                    > >the Western Empire had fallen in 475AD., and the remaining Romans
                    were
                    > >in the same position as Arthur's Romans-Britons in trying to hold
                    > >civilisation together and hold off the barbarians. The legions and
                    > >cataphracts of Justinian are about to arrive on the scene in Italy
                    to
                    > >try to save civilisation, and in britain and the rest of the
                    Western
                    > >Empire the arrival of the legions to restore civilisation is
                    awaited.
                    > >The legions never came.
                    > >
                    > >Meanwhile I can only suggest a more "Roman" element to Arthur,
                    other
                    > >than a Stonehenge Village - say a declining Roman city - if it is
                    > >true, and it almost certainly is, that he represented the last
                    stand
                    > >of the pro-Roman party.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >--- In imperialrome2@y..., "Michael G. Hamilton"
                    <bedwyrdragon@h...>
                    > >wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Mary-I too agree that I would like to present Rome in all it's
                    > >spendor. I
                    > > > also agree that Constantine is a white wash by the church-so I'm
                    > >really not
                    > > > interested in that at all. Of course the emergence of Arthur is
                    > >based on
                    > > > Romes' removal from Briton over a period of time. Romes
                    influence
                    > >was
                    > > > massive in Britain and while they were present many of the great
                    > >Celtic
                    > > > tribes stayed either hidden or basically wiped out.
                    > > > The Arthur Village does take some theatrical license in so far
                    as
                    > >not only
                    > > > Bretons but Irish and Scots along with Celtic chieftans have
                    joined
                    > >with
                    > > > Arthur and his Romano-Bretons to do battle against the Saxons
                    > >(jutes,
                    > > > angles, etc) Of course in fact Arthur did battle against Scots
                    and
                    > >Irish
                    > > > raiders, but for the sake of what is now the UK and sponsors etc
                    etc
                    > >etc it
                    > > > is best that these parties have joined together to quell the
                    > >onslaught of
                    > > > Saxons. Ok, with that said, what theatrical license do we have
                    or
                    > >should we
                    > > > have with regard to the Roman Village? It would be helpful to
                    be
                    > >able to
                    > > > tie-in the Arthur area with Rome in some way. Historically,
                    they
                    > >are tied
                    > > > together but unfortunately, Rome is on the down-side by the time
                    > >Arthur
                    > > > appears. It is a question. Imagine a visitor to the Faire
                    moving
                    > >from
                    > > > Arthur's Stonehenge Village to the Roman Village. There is
                    > >definately a
                    > > > connection. So had bad off was Rome during this same period?
                    > >Wasn't
                    > > > Hadrian long gone by 500AD? Then again, it is not absolutely
                    > >necessary for
                    > > > there to be a connection other than the Romano-Bretons and their
                    > >history in
                    > > > Britain which, if positioned and presented correctly, could be
                    used
                    > >to have
                    > > > visitors go to the Roman Village to see WHERE the Roman
                    influence in
                    > >Britain
                    > > > stemmed from!
                    > > > Would like to hear more from you. Your insights are terrific as
                    is
                    > >your
                    > > > command of Roman history. Thanks for taking the time to
                    consider
                    > >these
                    > > > questions and concerns. Ultimately, all of this will make the
                    > >experience of
                    > > > visiting the Faire well worth the effort.
                    > > > M Hamilton
                    > > >
                    > > > >From: Mary Harrsch <mharrsch@o...>
                    > > > >Reply-To: imperialrome2@y...
                    > > > >To: imperialrome2@y...
                    > > > >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                    > > > >Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:26:12 -0700
                    > > > >
                    > > > >Michael, 500 A.D. would be much too late. I think Rome should
                    be
                    > >presented
                    > > > >at a time when it was at its zenith rather than at its end. As
                    an
                    > >admirer
                    > > > >of Julius Caesar I would prefer that you keep the time period
                    as it
                    > >is.
                    > > > >However, if you wish to have more of a tie-in to ancient
                    Britain,
                    > >you could
                    > > > >select the Claudian era (Claudius conquered Britain) or the
                    Hadrian
                    > >era
                    > > > >(the builder of Hadrian's wall). I think a triumphal parade
                    > >featuring the
                    > > > >"Heron King" used as a ruse by Claudius to defeat the Britons
                    (at
                    > >least
                    > > > >according to Robert Graves) would be colorful, humorous, and
                    quite
                    > > > >delightful. Of course, a stuttering, disabled emperor may not
                    be
                    > >the image
                    > > > >of a Roman Emperor you wish to project.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >Hadrian built an expansive, elegant villa although it was built
                    > >outside of
                    > > > >Rome. However, I do think your Roman community should be
                    focused
                    > >around the
                    > > > >Palatine Hill with the forum and temples.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >The period during the Pax Romana (Augustus' rule) would be
                    > >suitable.
                    > > > >However, Augustus did not build a palatial villa. He prided
                    > >himself on his
                    > > > >moderate living. Nero, however, built his opulent Golden House
                    at
                    > >the
                    > > > >center of Rome (conveniently cleared out by the famous fire)
                    but I
                    > >would
                    > > > >prefer an era less tainted by religious conflict just as I
                    would
                    > >definitely
                    > > > >prefer a "Roman" Rome to a Christian Rome (after 325 A.D.)
                    > >especially since
                    > > > >I view Constantine as one of the devious, murderous emperors,
                    > >contrary to
                    > > > >the sanitized view of the saint presented by the church. I
                    would
                    > >want Rome
                    > > > >presented in a positive light, especially in view of all of the
                    > > > >contributions Rome made to Western Civilization, not demonized
                    as
                    > >it has
                    > > > >been so often by religious conservatives.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >Mary Harrsch
                    > > > >Network & Information Systems Manager
                    > > > >College of Education
                    > > > >University of Oregon
                    > > > >Eugene, OR 97403
                    > > > >(541) 346-3554
                    > > > >http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~mharrsch
                    > > > >
                    > > > >Commentary Section Editor
                    > > > >The Technology Source
                    > > > >http://ts.mivu.org
                    > > > >A free refereed Web periodical that focuses on infusing
                    > > > >information technology tools in educational organizations
                    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > From: Michael G. Hamilton
                    > > > > To: imperialrome2@y...
                    > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:45 AM
                    > > > > Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Mary-
                    > > > > Your message is well put and loud and clear. We too feel as
                    you
                    > >do
                    > > > >about
                    > > > > turning this project into a Disney affair. If we do go the
                    way
                    > >of the
                    > > > >large
                    > > > > developers that is, I am afraid, just what it would become.
                    A 2
                    > >to 400
                    > > > > million dollar investment would take this out of our
                    control-We
                    > >would be
                    > > > >at
                    > > > > the mercy of the investors. We are searching for a smaller
                    > >presentation
                    > > > >at
                    > > > > 10 to 20 million. Sounds like a great deal of money, but an
                    off
                    > >ramp
                    > > > >alone
                    > > > > runs 5 million. No, we are committed to an environmentally
                    > >sensitive
                    > > > >site
                    > > > > embracing the topography
                    > > > > and making the entire experience more like a renaissance
                    faire.
                    > > > > Question: We are re-thinking the time period for the Roman
                    > >Village.
                    > > > >Now
                    > > > > setting it around 500AD. This would allow us a better
                    tie-in
                    > > > >historically
                    > > > > with the Arthur, Lyonesse and Avalon Villages. With this in
                    > >mind, who
                    > > > >was
                    > > > > on the throne in Rome at this time? This would be the period
                    > >after the
                    > > > > legions were recalled leaving Britain exposed to the Saxon
                    > >invasion. I
                    > > > >now
                    > > > > understand that the Praetorian Guard had not been created
                    > >during the
                    > > > >time
                    > > > > of Julius Caesar but certainly were in existance around
                    500AD.
                    > >Also,
                    > > > > Augustus had built a villa mansion on the Palatine. Would
                    this
                    > >villa
                    > > > >still
                    > > > > be in existance in 500AD? Could we use the Palatine as a
                    > >location for
                    > > > >the
                    > > > > Roman Village at the Faire? Is there any information on
                    this
                    > >Villa-what
                    > > > >it
                    > > > > might have looked like? We will therefore not use Julius
                    Caesar
                    > >as the
                    > > > >main
                    > > > > personality for the Roman Village but the emperor who was in
                    > >command
                    > > > >during
                    > > > > 500AD.
                    > > > > Indeed History, in favor of Holloywood, would be the way to
                    go
                    > >and yet
                    > > > >there
                    > > > > must be a balance between the two as we are also in the
                    business
                    > >of
                    > > > > entertaining as well as educating the general public.
                    > > > > Looking forward to hearing from you again.
                    > > > > M Hamilton
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >From: Mary Harrsch <mharrsch@o...>
                    > > > > >Reply-To: imperialrome2@y...
                    > > > > >To: imperialrome2@y...
                    > > > > >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                    > > > > >Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:56:03 -0700
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >If the Faire was treated as a learning/fun experience, I
                    would
                    > >be very
                    > > > >much
                    > > > > >in favor of it. I'm afraid Disney has adversely
                    stereotyped
                    > >the
                    > > > >concept of
                    > > > > >theme park when theme parks, if treated with a careful eye
                    on
                    > >research,
                    > > > >can
                    > > > > >be an excellent, enjoyable learning environment. Members
                    of
                    > >our group
                    > > > >in
                    > > > > >Europe have the luxury of visiting ancient sites on a day
                    trip.
                    > > For
                    > > > >those
                    > > > > >of us in the other hemisphere (especially those of us on
                    the
                    > >west
                    > > > >coast),
                    > > > > >planning a trip to ancient sites in the Mediterranean
                    amounts
                    > >to a
                    > > > > >financial investment and, unfortunately at present, a
                    > >willingness to
                    > > > >risk
                    > > > > >our personal safety, since Americans are not the most
                    popular
                    > >visitors
                    > > > >to
                    > > > > >that part of the world right now.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >As far as Disney is concerned, I must admit their treatment
                    of
                    > >their
                    > > > >newest
                    > > > > >Orlando attraction, Disney's Animal kingdom, was a pleasant
                    > >change from
                    > > > >the
                    > > > > >usual artificial treatment of subject matter in many of
                    their
                    > >other
                    > > > >parks.
                    > > > > >I enjoyed the Safari trek in open trucks through a
                    landscape
                    > >planted to
                    > > > > >resemble African environments. The guides were very
                    > >informative about
                    > > > > >animal behaviors and there were no apparent fences or
                    feeding
                    > >stations
                    > > > > >although I'm sure they were just carefully camouflaged.
                    The
                    > >walking
                    > > > > >portion of the exhibit allowed me to take my time and study
                    > >informative
                    > > > > >displays with fossils and additional information about the
                    > >species I
                    > > > >was
                    > > > > >seeing. This same approach was used in an Asian
                    environment.
                    > >The
                    > > > >birds of
                    > > > > >prey "show" not only introduced the audience to rare bird
                    > >species but
                    > > > > >provided a question and answer time with the biologists at
                    the
                    > >end of
                    > > > >the
                    > > > > >demonstrations . There obviously were some child-oriented
                    > >productions
                    > > > >but,
                    > > > > >surprisingly, these did not dominate the park's focus.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >If the creators of the Mythological Fantasy Faire remember
                    that
                    > >their
                    > > > > >target audience primarily prefers history to hollywood, it
                    > >should be
                    > > > >quite
                    > > > > >successful.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >Mary Harrsch
                    > > > > >Network & Information Systems Manager
                    > > > > >College of Education
                    > > > > >University of Oregon
                    > > > > >Eugene, OR 97403
                    > > > > >(541) 346-3554
                    > > > > >http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~mharrsch
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >Commentary Section Editor
                    > > > > >The Technology Source
                    > > > > >http://ts.mivu.org
                    > > > > >A free refereed Web periodical that focuses on infusing
                    > > > > >information technology tools in educational organizations
                    > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > > From: VaccAttak@a...
                    > > > > > To: imperialrome2@y...
                    > > > > > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 8:42 PM
                    > > > > > Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I would hate to see ancient history turned into a Disney
                    > >World. All
                    > > > >the
                    > > > > >tourism in Rome already pushes the borderline if not steps
                    over
                    > >it and
                    > > > >this
                    > > > > >saddens me.
                    > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > > > imperialrome2-unsubscribe@y...
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                    of
                    > >Service.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > >_________________________________________________________________
                    > > > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
                    > >http://messenger.msn.com
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                    > > > >
                    > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > >Service.
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    _________________________________________________________________
                    > > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                    > > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
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                  • Michael G. Hamilton
                    READ BETWEEN YOUR LINES................. ... PERHAPS I AM SEEKING TOO MUCH IN TRYING TO MAKE THE DIRECT CONNECTION BETWEEN ROME AND ARTHUR. PERHAPS THEY ARE
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 1, 2002
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                    • 0 Attachment
                      READ BETWEEN YOUR LINES.................


                      >From: richard_roper <no_reply@...>
                      >Reply-To: imperialrome2@...
                      >To: imperialrome2@...
                      >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                      >Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:28:03 -0000
                      >
                      >Yes, there is a way of linking the Roman element with the Celtic one.
                      >
                      >The Sword.(I WANT TO BE A BIT CAREFUL HERE-I DON'T THINK WE ARE GOING TO
                      >APPRAOCH THE SWORD AS MYSTICAL OR MAGICAL IN ANY WAY-CURRENTLY OUR THINKING
                      >MAY BE MORE IN LINE WITH JACK WHYTE-WHERE THE SWORD WAS FORGED FROM A
                      >METEOR WHICH STRUCK WESTERN BRITAIN PRIOR PERHAPS TO THE BUILDING DATE OF
                      >STONEHENGE-THUS THE SWORD IN THE STONE IS EXPLAINED IN A REASONABLE, IF NOT
                      >SOMEWHAT INTREGUING WAY. MOST MYSTICAL/MAGICAL REFERENCES AND REASONING
                      >WILL BE HELD AT AVALON)
                      >
                      >Remember the Romans were always happy to adopt local religious
                      >influences and deities and link them with their own.(SOUNDS LIKE THE
                      >CHURCH!)
                      >
                      >Brid, Bridig, there are various versions of the name was the Celtic
                      >goddess of fire, and of the smithy and the forge. This had been lost
                      >in the Classical pantheon but retained in the Celtic one. So it is
                      >highly probable that the origin of the sword story lies in a sword
                      >being presented to Arthur dedicated to Brid, (YOU'VE LOST ME.)and made by
                      >smiths with a
                      >shrine to her at their mine/forge. Brid is inseparably linked to the
                      >"Lady of the Lake" part of the story.(CAN YOU IDENTIFY A REFERENCE WHERE I
                      >MIGHT READ OF THIS CONNECTION?) Aquae Sulis, bath was also
                      >dedicated to her as the goddess of springs. You may like this with your
                      >celtic link, which i assume from your e-mail identity.(THIS IS MORE A
                      >TRIBUTE TO THE TRUE BRITAINS THAT WERE FORCED BY THE SAXON INVASION INTO
                      >MODERN DAY WALES-BEDWYR/BEDEVERE/BELVEDERE)
                      >
                      >I will look out the links.
                      >
                      >This means abandoning Stonehenge,(WHY?) but you could link it to
                      >Glastonbury (I HAVE A BIT OF TROUBLE WITH GLASTONBURY-FAMOUS? YES,
                      >INFAMOUS?-INDEED BUT WHERE IT TRULY CONNECTS TO ARTHUR IS STILL A BIG
                      >QUESTION ON THIS SIDE OF THE POND STARTING WITH THE MONKS AT THE ABBY
                      >FAKING THE DISCOVERY OF ARTHUR'S GRAVE TO GET MONEY AFTER THE FIRE. NOW
                      >CERTAINLLY, THIS SITE IS MYSTICAL FOR MANY OTHER REASONS AND MAY STILL
                      >PROVE TO BE A STRONG CONNECTION WITH ARTHUR-BUT HERE IN THE U.S. STONEHENGE
                      >IS IT AND ONLY THOSE OF USE WHO ARE WELL VERSED IN ARTHUR, MYSTICISM AND
                      >OTHER SACRED SITES CAN FULLY APPRECIATE THE COMNNECTIONS TO PLACES SUCH AS
                      >GLASTONBURY AND AVESBURY, ETC.)
                      >and the then probably still standing stone circle on top of the hill.
                      >I know this is linked to the Holy Grail medieval myth,(WE INTEND TO STAY
                      >FAR AWAY FROM ANY HOLY GRAIL NONSENSE-GUENIVERE WILL BE NOT WIMP LADY BUT
                      >MOST PROBABLY BE PRESENTED AS A STRONG,SMART AND CREATIVE WOMAN/WARRIOR-SHE
                      >WOULD HAVE TO BE TO KEEP UP WITH ARTHUR-PERHAPS SHE CAME FROM AN ALLIANCE
                      >WITH A SCOTTISH CLAN LEADER OR IRISH TRIBAL CHIEFTAIN-BUT WE DON'T INTEND
                      >TO PORTRAY HER THE WAY THE CHURCH AND THE STORYTELLERS FROM FRANCE HAVE
                      >PRESENTED HER)(IN THE SAME VAIN-MERLIN WHO MAY HAVE BEEN SEEN AS A
                      >MAGICICAN OF SORTS WOULD, IF ALIVE TODAY, BE MORE OF A
                      >HEALER/ENGINEER/SCIENTIST/WARRIOR-NO SILLY POINTED HATS WITH MOONS AND
                      >STARS FOR THIS IMPORTANT CHARACTER-WHAT MERLIN CAN DO WOULD TODAY BE
                      >UNDERSTANDABLE-BUT IN 500AD HE WOULD BE SEEN AS A MAGICIAN A SORCERER)but
                      >there is
                      >good reason to link the historic Arthur with that part of the world.
                      >There were in any case many stone circles, even if Stonehenge is the
                      >most famous in the US.(WE HOPE TO INTRODUCE THE VISITORS TO THESE OTHER
                      >IMPORTANT SITES WHEN THEY VISIT THE INFORMATION/EDUCATION CENTERS LOCATED
                      >IN EACH OF THE 5 VILLAGES)
                      >
                      >The strategic spread of the Roman roads from the Corinium-
                      >Glenvum-Aquae Sulis area make it apparant that he must have used them
                      >to deploy his army rapidly and could only do it from this location.(NO
                      >QUESTION ABOUT IT-YOU ARE EXACTLY CORRECT)
                      >
                      >Links with Rome as such in 500AD. are a bit of a problem,(APPARENTLY) but
                      >you
                      >could emphasis how Romanised the "Roman Island" actually was,(I AGREE
                      >COMPLETELY-THESE WARRIORS WHO FOUGHT FOR ARTHUR WERE, I AM SURE, VERY
                      >ROMANIZED. MANY CAME FROM ROMAN ANCESTORS WHO EITHER NEVER RETURNED TO
                      >ROME AFTER THE LEGIONS WERE RECALLED, OR WHO WERE FULL ROMAN CITIZENS BUT
                      >WHO WERE NOT BORN IN OR EVEN EVER SAW ROME DURING THEIR LIFETIMES.) and how
                      >sophisticated the Roman cities were - the recent dig in london dug up
                      >the Amphitheatre foundations, and army of a twice life size bronze
                      >statue and a system for raising water for the baths.
                      >
                      >I think that details of East Rome and in a few years justinian would
                      >try to have the legions reconquer the Western Empire are a bit too way
                      >out for the average audience.(INDEED)
                      >
                      >But in 500 "Arthur" seems to have been in the middle of his campaigns
                      >to stop the saxons advancing out of South eastern England where the
                      >beachhead was.(THE SAXON SHORE) Bladon is usually put around 517 and
                      >Camlann around
                      >537.IT IS FUNNY HOW POPULAR THIS ARTHUR STILL IS TODAY-EVERYONE SEEMS TO
                      >WANT A PIECE OF HIM-CERTAINLY THE WELSH CLAIM IS STRONG AND THE
                      >SCOTS/NORTHERN TRIBES IE:LOT OF LOTHIAN AND VORTIGAN-CORNWALL OF COURSE IS
                      >MIXED INTO THE STORY EVEN BRITTANY LAYS CLAIM THRU RIOTHEMUS.
                      PERHAPS I AM SEEKING TOO MUCH IN TRYING TO MAKE THE DIRECT CONNECTION
                      BETWEEN ROME AND ARTHUR. PERHAPS THEY ARE BEST LEFT SEPERATED BY 5 OR 6OO
                      YEARS AFTER ALL LEAVING ROME AT ITS ZENITH AND ARTHUR THE WARRIOR INFLUENCED
                      BY THE BEST OF WHAT ROME WAS DESPERATELY TRYING TO DEFEND HIS HOMELAND.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >--- In imperialrome2@y..., "Michael G. Hamilton" <bedwyrdragon@h...>
                      >wrote:
                      > >
                      > > GOOD POINTS AND THANK YOU. HOWEVER, MARKETING AND PROMOTION
                      >(IMPORTANT THEY
                      > > ARE INDEED) DICTATES THAT STONEHENGE IS THE FOCAL POINT FOR THE
                      >ARTHUR
                      > > VILLAGE. I DO ABSOLUTELY AGREE-ARTHUR WAS DEFINATELY OF
                      >ROMANO-BRETON
                      > > STOCK-ALL OF HIS TRAINING AND BATTLE TACTICS (AS BEST AS WE CAN
                      >TELL) SHOW
                      > > STRONG ROMAN INFLUENCES. I AM JUST TRYING TO SEE IF THERE IS A WAY
                      >IN WHICH
                      > > WE CAN CREATE A CLOSER TIE BETWEEN THE PERIOD OF ARTHUR IN BRITAIN
                      >AND THE
                      > > SAME PERIOD IN ROME. THIS WILL GIVE VISITORS PERHAPS A SOMEWAHT
                      >MORE DIRECT
                      > > CONNECTION BETWEEN WHO ARTHUR IS AND WHY HE IS THE WAY HE IS-IN
                      >OTHER WORDS
                      > > THE DIRECT ROMAN INFLUENCE.
                      > > I AM TRYING TO DISPEL THE NOTION OF THE LEGEND OF ARTHUR WITH
                      >LANCELOT AND
                      > > THE HOLY GRAIL AND ALL OF THAT SWEET SILLINESS AND INSTEAD PRESENT
                      >ARTHUR IN
                      > > A MORE HISTORICAL LIGHT. IN CONNECTING HIM WITH ROME AND ITS
                      >INFLUENCES I
                      > > FEEL I AM BEING SOMEWHAT MORE TRUE TO THE HISITORICAL FIGURE AS WE
                      >TRY TO
                      > > NOT ONLY ENTERTAIN BUT EDUCATE TO A CERTAIN DEGREE.
                      > >
                      > > >From: richard_roper <no_reply@y...>
                      > > >Reply-To: imperialrome2@y...
                      > > >To: imperialrome2@y...
                      > > >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                      > > >Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 09:45:13 -0000
                      > > >
                      > > >Michael,
                      > > >
                      > > >I suggest, like Mary, you should consider an earlier period than
                      >500AD
                      > > >for Rome. It was very much on a "downer" by then. Technically
                      >speaking
                      > > >the Western Empire had fallen in 475AD., and the remaining Romans
                      >were
                      > > >in the same position as Arthur's Romans-Britons in trying to hold
                      > > >civilisation together and hold off the barbarians. The legions and
                      > > >cataphracts of Justinian are about to arrive on the scene in Italy
                      >to
                      > > >try to save civilisation, and in britain and the rest of the
                      >Western
                      > > >Empire the arrival of the legions to restore civilisation is
                      >awaited.
                      > > >The legions never came.
                      > > >
                      > > >Meanwhile I can only suggest a more "Roman" element to Arthur,
                      >other
                      > > >than a Stonehenge Village - say a declining Roman city - if it is
                      > > >true, and it almost certainly is, that he represented the last
                      >stand
                      > > >of the pro-Roman party.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >--- In imperialrome2@y..., "Michael G. Hamilton"
                      ><bedwyrdragon@h...>
                      > > >wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Mary-I too agree that I would like to present Rome in all it's
                      > > >spendor. I
                      > > > > also agree that Constantine is a white wash by the church-so I'm
                      > > >really not
                      > > > > interested in that at all. Of course the emergence of Arthur is
                      > > >based on
                      > > > > Romes' removal from Briton over a period of time. Romes
                      >influence
                      > > >was
                      > > > > massive in Britain and while they were present many of the great
                      > > >Celtic
                      > > > > tribes stayed either hidden or basically wiped out.
                      > > > > The Arthur Village does take some theatrical license in so far
                      >as
                      > > >not only
                      > > > > Bretons but Irish and Scots along with Celtic chieftans have
                      >joined
                      > > >with
                      > > > > Arthur and his Romano-Bretons to do battle against the Saxons
                      > > >(jutes,
                      > > > > angles, etc) Of course in fact Arthur did battle against Scots
                      >and
                      > > >Irish
                      > > > > raiders, but for the sake of what is now the UK and sponsors etc
                      >etc
                      > > >etc it
                      > > > > is best that these parties have joined together to quell the
                      > > >onslaught of
                      > > > > Saxons. Ok, with that said, what theatrical license do we have
                      >or
                      > > >should we
                      > > > > have with regard to the Roman Village? It would be helpful to
                      >be
                      > > >able to
                      > > > > tie-in the Arthur area with Rome in some way. Historically,
                      >they
                      > > >are tied
                      > > > > together but unfortunately, Rome is on the down-side by the time
                      > > >Arthur
                      > > > > appears. It is a question. Imagine a visitor to the Faire
                      >moving
                      > > >from
                      > > > > Arthur's Stonehenge Village to the Roman Village. There is
                      > > >definately a
                      > > > > connection. So had bad off was Rome during this same period?
                      > > >Wasn't
                      > > > > Hadrian long gone by 500AD? Then again, it is not absolutely
                      > > >necessary for
                      > > > > there to be a connection other than the Romano-Bretons and their
                      > > >history in
                      > > > > Britain which, if positioned and presented correctly, could be
                      >used
                      > > >to have
                      > > > > visitors go to the Roman Village to see WHERE the Roman
                      >influence in
                      > > >Britain
                      > > > > stemmed from!
                      > > > > Would like to hear more from you. Your insights are terrific as
                      >is
                      > > >your
                      > > > > command of Roman history. Thanks for taking the time to
                      >consider
                      > > >these
                      > > > > questions and concerns. Ultimately, all of this will make the
                      > > >experience of
                      > > > > visiting the Faire well worth the effort.
                      > > > > M Hamilton
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >From: Mary Harrsch <mharrsch@o...>
                      > > > > >Reply-To: imperialrome2@y...
                      > > > > >To: imperialrome2@y...
                      > > > > >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                      > > > > >Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:26:12 -0700
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >Michael, 500 A.D. would be much too late. I think Rome should
                      >be
                      > > >presented
                      > > > > >at a time when it was at its zenith rather than at its end. As
                      >an
                      > > >admirer
                      > > > > >of Julius Caesar I would prefer that you keep the time period
                      >as it
                      > > >is.
                      > > > > >However, if you wish to have more of a tie-in to ancient
                      >Britain,
                      > > >you could
                      > > > > >select the Claudian era (Claudius conquered Britain) or the
                      >Hadrian
                      > > >era
                      > > > > >(the builder of Hadrian's wall). I think a triumphal parade
                      > > >featuring the
                      > > > > >"Heron King" used as a ruse by Claudius to defeat the Britons
                      >(at
                      > > >least
                      > > > > >according to Robert Graves) would be colorful, humorous, and
                      >quite
                      > > > > >delightful. Of course, a stuttering, disabled emperor may not
                      >be
                      > > >the image
                      > > > > >of a Roman Emperor you wish to project.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >Hadrian built an expansive, elegant villa although it was built
                      > > >outside of
                      > > > > >Rome. However, I do think your Roman community should be
                      >focused
                      > > >around the
                      > > > > >Palatine Hill with the forum and temples.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >The period during the Pax Romana (Augustus' rule) would be
                      > > >suitable.
                      > > > > >However, Augustus did not build a palatial villa. He prided
                      > > >himself on his
                      > > > > >moderate living. Nero, however, built his opulent Golden House
                      >at
                      > > >the
                      > > > > >center of Rome (conveniently cleared out by the famous fire)
                      >but I
                      > > >would
                      > > > > >prefer an era less tainted by religious conflict just as I
                      >would
                      > > >definitely
                      > > > > >prefer a "Roman" Rome to a Christian Rome (after 325 A.D.)
                      > > >especially since
                      > > > > >I view Constantine as one of the devious, murderous emperors,
                      > > >contrary to
                      > > > > >the sanitized view of the saint presented by the church. I
                      >would
                      > > >want Rome
                      > > > > >presented in a positive light, especially in view of all of the
                      > > > > >contributions Rome made to Western Civilization, not demonized
                      >as
                      > > >it has
                      > > > > >been so often by religious conservatives.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >Mary Harrsch
                      > > > > >Network & Information Systems Manager
                      > > > > >College of Education
                      > > > > >University of Oregon
                      > > > > >Eugene, OR 97403
                      > > > > >(541) 346-3554
                      > > > > >http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~mharrsch
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >Commentary Section Editor
                      > > > > >The Technology Source
                      > > > > >http://ts.mivu.org
                      > > > > >A free refereed Web periodical that focuses on infusing
                      > > > > >information technology tools in educational organizations
                      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > > From: Michael G. Hamilton
                      > > > > > To: imperialrome2@y...
                      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:45 AM
                      > > > > > Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Mary-
                      > > > > > Your message is well put and loud and clear. We too feel as
                      >you
                      > > >do
                      > > > > >about
                      > > > > > turning this project into a Disney affair. If we do go the
                      >way
                      > > >of the
                      > > > > >large
                      > > > > > developers that is, I am afraid, just what it would become.
                      >A 2
                      > > >to 400
                      > > > > > million dollar investment would take this out of our
                      >control-We
                      > > >would be
                      > > > > >at
                      > > > > > the mercy of the investors. We are searching for a smaller
                      > > >presentation
                      > > > > >at
                      > > > > > 10 to 20 million. Sounds like a great deal of money, but an
                      >off
                      > > >ramp
                      > > > > >alone
                      > > > > > runs 5 million. No, we are committed to an environmentally
                      > > >sensitive
                      > > > > >site
                      > > > > > embracing the topography
                      > > > > > and making the entire experience more like a renaissance
                      >faire.
                      > > > > > Question: We are re-thinking the time period for the Roman
                      > > >Village.
                      > > > > >Now
                      > > > > > setting it around 500AD. This would allow us a better
                      >tie-in
                      > > > > >historically
                      > > > > > with the Arthur, Lyonesse and Avalon Villages. With this in
                      > > >mind, who
                      > > > > >was
                      > > > > > on the throne in Rome at this time? This would be the period
                      > > >after the
                      > > > > > legions were recalled leaving Britain exposed to the Saxon
                      > > >invasion. I
                      > > > > >now
                      > > > > > understand that the Praetorian Guard had not been created
                      > > >during the
                      > > > > >time
                      > > > > > of Julius Caesar but certainly were in existance around
                      >500AD.
                      > > >Also,
                      > > > > > Augustus had built a villa mansion on the Palatine. Would
                      >this
                      > > >villa
                      > > > > >still
                      > > > > > be in existance in 500AD? Could we use the Palatine as a
                      > > >location for
                      > > > > >the
                      > > > > > Roman Village at the Faire? Is there any information on
                      >this
                      > > >Villa-what
                      > > > > >it
                      > > > > > might have looked like? We will therefore not use Julius
                      >Caesar
                      > > >as the
                      > > > > >main
                      > > > > > personality for the Roman Village but the emperor who was in
                      > > >command
                      > > > > >during
                      > > > > > 500AD.
                      > > > > > Indeed History, in favor of Holloywood, would be the way to
                      >go
                      > > >and yet
                      > > > > >there
                      > > > > > must be a balance between the two as we are also in the
                      >business
                      > > >of
                      > > > > > entertaining as well as educating the general public.
                      > > > > > Looking forward to hearing from you again.
                      > > > > > M Hamilton
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > >From: Mary Harrsch <mharrsch@o...>
                      > > > > > >Reply-To: imperialrome2@y...
                      > > > > > >To: imperialrome2@y...
                      > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                      > > > > > >Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:56:03 -0700
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >If the Faire was treated as a learning/fun experience, I
                      >would
                      > > >be very
                      > > > > >much
                      > > > > > >in favor of it. I'm afraid Disney has adversely
                      >stereotyped
                      > > >the
                      > > > > >concept of
                      > > > > > >theme park when theme parks, if treated with a careful eye
                      >on
                      > > >research,
                      > > > > >can
                      > > > > > >be an excellent, enjoyable learning environment. Members
                      >of
                      > > >our group
                      > > > > >in
                      > > > > > >Europe have the luxury of visiting ancient sites on a day
                      >trip.
                      > > > For
                      > > > > >those
                      > > > > > >of us in the other hemisphere (especially those of us on
                      >the
                      > > >west
                      > > > > >coast),
                      > > > > > >planning a trip to ancient sites in the Mediterranean
                      >amounts
                      > > >to a
                      > > > > > >financial investment and, unfortunately at present, a
                      > > >willingness to
                      > > > > >risk
                      > > > > > >our personal safety, since Americans are not the most
                      >popular
                      > > >visitors
                      > > > > >to
                      > > > > > >that part of the world right now.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >As far as Disney is concerned, I must admit their treatment
                      >of
                      > > >their
                      > > > > >newest
                      > > > > > >Orlando attraction, Disney's Animal kingdom, was a pleasant
                      > > >change from
                      > > > > >the
                      > > > > > >usual artificial treatment of subject matter in many of
                      >their
                      > > >other
                      > > > > >parks.
                      > > > > > >I enjoyed the Safari trek in open trucks through a
                      >landscape
                      > > >planted to
                      > > > > > >resemble African environments. The guides were very
                      > > >informative about
                      > > > > > >animal behaviors and there were no apparent fences or
                      >feeding
                      > > >stations
                      > > > > > >although I'm sure they were just carefully camouflaged.
                      >The
                      > > >walking
                      > > > > > >portion of the exhibit allowed me to take my time and study
                      > > >informative
                      > > > > > >displays with fossils and additional information about the
                      > > >species I
                      > > > > >was
                      > > > > > >seeing. This same approach was used in an Asian
                      >environment.
                      > > >The
                      > > > > >birds of
                      > > > > > >prey "show" not only introduced the audience to rare bird
                      > > >species but
                      > > > > > >provided a question and answer time with the biologists at
                      >the
                      > > >end of
                      > > > > >the
                      > > > > > >demonstrations . There obviously were some child-oriented
                      > > >productions
                      > > > > >but,
                      > > > > > >surprisingly, these did not dominate the park's focus.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >If the creators of the Mythological Fantasy Faire remember
                      >that
                      > > >their
                      > > > > > >target audience primarily prefers history to hollywood, it
                      > > >should be
                      > > > > >quite
                      > > > > > >successful.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >Mary Harrsch
                      > > > > > >Network & Information Systems Manager
                      > > > > > >College of Education
                      > > > > > >University of Oregon
                      > > > > > >Eugene, OR 97403
                      > > > > > >(541) 346-3554
                      > > > > > >http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~mharrsch
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >Commentary Section Editor
                      > > > > > >The Technology Source
                      > > > > > >http://ts.mivu.org
                      > > > > > >A free refereed Web periodical that focuses on infusing
                      > > > > > >information technology tools in educational organizations
                      > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > > > From: VaccAttak@a...
                      > > > > > > To: imperialrome2@y...
                      > > > > > > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 8:42 PM
                      > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I would hate to see ancient history turned into a Disney
                      > > >World. All
                      > > > > >the
                      > > > > > >tourism in Rome already pushes the borderline if not steps
                      >over
                      > > >it and
                      > > > > >this
                      > > > > > >saddens me.
                      > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > > > > imperialrome2-unsubscribe@y...
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                      >of
                      > > >Service.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > >_________________________________________________________________
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                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
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                    • gauiscaecilius
                      I think that trying to dispel the connection between Arthur and the Holy Grail is certainly valuable as it started with an improbable Cornish ledgend
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 2, 2002
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                        I think that trying to dispel the connection between Arthur and the
                        Holy Grail is certainly valuable as it started with an improbable
                        Cornish ledgend embroidered by disreputable authors.

                        One thing I am not sure about. Are you trying to connect Arthur with
                        Stonehenge. In rality stonehenge was as further removed from Arthurs
                        time than he is from our own. If Arthur existed he was iron age
                        whereas Stonehenge is so far in prehistory that apart from its
                        probable use little can be deduced about it.

                        I think that you would be right to put your efforts into providing
                        costumed actors rather than a detailed reconstruction of a villa. A
                        good actor playing a historical role brings history alive like no
                        other. If your funds could run as far as a peristyle garden
                        surrounded by false walls. You might want to put some of your utility
                        building inside the shell of the villa. What would have been service
                        quarters in the villa would be nicely hide modern necessities with no
                        extra cost.

                        I do suggest you contact English Heritage. They are very good indeed
                        at balancing the tight-rope between commercial viability and
                        presenting Heritage sympathetically. They also are experieced in
                        staging re-enactment of all eras.
                      • Michael G. Hamilton
                        All great points-thanks you. I also agree with the hsitorical timing as you outlined between Arthur and Stonehenge. In fact Stonehenge looks today as it did in
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 2, 2002
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                          All great points-thanks you.
                          I also agree with the hsitorical timing as you outlined between Arthur and
                          Stonehenge.
                          In fact Stonehenge looks today as it did in Arthurs day-more or less. This
                          is why we want to use it as the main focal point of this particular Village.
                          The Stonehenge we build will look as it does today in Salsbury.
                          The presumption as outlined in all promotional materials concerning the
                          Arthur Village is that the call has gone out for all patriots to meet at the
                          temple of the stones where Arthur is building an army to battle the Saxons.
                          The U.S. market will more easily relate to this image than some structure
                          that was Stonehenge at its complete and unruined past.


                          >From: "gauiscaecilius" <gauiscaecilius@...>
                          >Reply-To: imperialrome2@...
                          >To: imperialrome2@...
                          >Subject: Re: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                          >Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 12:09:50 -0000
                          >
                          >I think that trying to dispel the connection between Arthur and the
                          >Holy Grail is certainly valuable as it started with an improbable
                          >Cornish ledgend embroidered by disreputable authors.
                          >
                          >One thing I am not sure about. Are you trying to connect Arthur with
                          >Stonehenge. In rality stonehenge was as further removed from Arthurs
                          >time than he is from our own. If Arthur existed he was iron age
                          >whereas Stonehenge is so far in prehistory that apart from its
                          >probable use little can be deduced about it.
                          >
                          >I think that you would be right to put your efforts into providing
                          >costumed actors rather than a detailed reconstruction of a villa. A
                          >good actor playing a historical role brings history alive like no
                          >other. If your funds could run as far as a peristyle garden
                          >surrounded by false walls. You might want to put some of your utility
                          >building inside the shell of the villa. What would have been service
                          >quarters in the villa would be nicely hide modern necessities with no
                          >extra cost.
                          >
                          >I do suggest you contact English Heritage. They are very good indeed
                          >at balancing the tight-rope between commercial viability and
                          >presenting Heritage sympathetically. They also are experieced in
                          >staging re-enactment of all eras.
                          >
                          >


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                        • Michael G. Hamilton
                          Good Points-all! And I do tend to agree-The public IS action oriented-they will want to get at it before stopping by the info centers. Now the info centers
                          Message 12 of 18 , May 3, 2002
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                            Good Points-all! And I do tend to agree-The public IS action oriented-they
                            will want to get at it before stopping by the info centers. Now the info
                            centers (and we may change the name of these-still looking at this) will not
                            only be educational, but will also be a center for mythological faire
                            merchandise, ie: t-shirts, sweatshirts, hats,books, videos (both fiction and
                            non-fiction) toys, etc with our logo's and sponsor logo's etc-you
                            know-capitalism-revenue streams-bottom line stuff. Visitors can get Faire
                            maps, or even buy concert tickets or season passes in these locations-they
                            can also learn about the on-line web site for the faire and all that has to
                            offer visitors.
                            These centers will also be staffed with -in character-specialists who will
                            answer questions, as well as provide visitors with updates on the on-going
                            dramas or events taking place in the specific Village that day. If there is
                            a rumor of an assassination plot against Caesar and who might be behind it,
                            these specialist will know and let the visitors know that something may
                            happen at the gladiatorial games to be held at 2pm that day.
                            We have considered initially, building only Stonehenge, Avalon and Lyonesse
                            as Phase 1.(Timing is important as New Line Cinema intends to spend hundreds
                            of millions of dollars over the next three years in marketing the 2nd and
                            3rd Lord of the Rings films-capitalizing on their investment as it "primes
                            the pump" of this particular market.) Phase 2 would then be about adding
                            Rome and Greece. Phase 3-Ancient Egypt (Ancient Asia or the Barbarians
                            Villages would be decided based on actual location of the Faire-If we wind
                            up in the pacific area-ie: California-then it might make more sense to put
                            in Ancient Asia first targeting the Asian American market which is strong in
                            California as part of the Pacific Rim) Otherwise decisions would be based
                            on cost and popularity of theme. Phase 4 would then be the Pirates if all
                            is going well financially and there is available land.
                            There is much to be considered here and thank you for posing the question-It
                            help me think and solidify the concepts in my mind.

                            >From: jachthondus <no_reply@...>
                            >Reply-To: imperialrome2@...
                            >To: imperialrome2@...
                            >Subject: [Imperial Rome] Mythological Fantasy Faire.
                            >Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 11:44:06 -0000
                            >
                            >Boys-oh-boys,....... Michael: You have come up with an interesting
                            >Item, indeed!
                            >
                            >You are asking yourself, (in connection about the link between the
                            >Greecs and the Romans): Will the public, before coming to the Faire,
                            >understand the link? Will they "get" it?
                            >
                            >If you ask me? Some will; but the majority won't!
                            >No harm done; most of them will come-in for the "thrill" and the
                            >adventure.
                            >
                            >Imagine: you construct an education-centre as the start of the tour,
                            >in order to make them "wise"?!
                            >
                            >There will be not many families-with-children having the patience to
                            >go there and listen, before having seen the adventures of the park-
                            >itself.
                            >They'll want to get "action" for their money, in the first place! And
                            >also: Immediately!
                            >(As nearly the whole of today's society is action-and-zapping).
                            >
                            >Can't help that I am a logical-and-mathematical-person, next to being
                            >a music-and-history-freak!
                            >
                            >I ask myself again, (forgive me please, Michael), if it wouldn't be
                            >better to start with ONE item, and gradually build-up?
                            >
                            >Greetings, Jach.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


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