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Re: Barbarians and the Roman Empire

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  • postumusagrippa
    ... Hello cooperalfred, Livia was actually *not* born a Claudian... rather her father was born a Claudian and adopted by a Marcus Livius Drusus as an infant.
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 29, 2008
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      > Livia, a Claudian by birth, had been adopted into the Livian family
      > which was Plebian and therefore might she not be considered a plebian?
      > Incidentally, her sons and grandsons all included the
      > cognomen "Drusus" in their names. This came from the Livian
      > connection.


      Hello cooperalfred,

      Livia was actually *not* born a Claudian... rather her father was born
      a Claudian and adopted by a Marcus Livius Drusus as an infant.

      By the time of Livia's birth, her father was already a Livian.

      Although the Livii Drusi were a plebeian family, there had not been a
      genuine Livius Drusus since the early 2nd ce. BCE (as I recall), when
      an Aemilius (a patrician) had been adopted.

      All of the Livii Drusi were descended from this Aemilius - as such,
      every Livii Drusi into the 1st ce. BCE were actually patrician Aemilii.

      Livia's own paternal family was in actuality the Claudii Pulchri, her
      father having been born Appius Claudius Pulcher.


      All her sons and grandsons included the name 'Drusus'?

      Are you sure?

      Does that include her eldest son, 'Tiberius Claudius Nero'?

      Barry
    • cooperalfred89
      ... family ... plebian? ... born ... when ... Aemilii. ... her ... Hi Barry, I think the full name for male members of this branch of the Claudian gens was
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 2, 2008
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        --- In imperialrome2@..., postumusagrippa
        <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Livia, a Claudian by birth, had been adopted into the Livian
        family
        > > which was Plebian and therefore might she not be considered a
        plebian?
        > > Incidentally, her sons and grandsons all included the
        > > cognomen "Drusus" in their names. This came from the Livian
        > > connection.
        >
        >
        > Hello cooperalfred,
        >
        > Livia was actually *not* born a Claudian... rather her father was
        born
        > a Claudian and adopted by a Marcus Livius Drusus as an infant.
        >
        > By the time of Livia's birth, her father was already a Livian.
        >


        > Although the Livii Drusi were a plebeian family, there had not been
        > genuine Livius Drusus since the early 2nd ce. BCE (as I recall),
        when
        > an Aemilius (a patrician) had been adopted.
        >
        > All of the Livii Drusi were descended from this Aemilius - as such,
        > every Livii Drusi into the 1st ce. BCE were actually patrician
        Aemilii.
        >
        > Livia's own paternal family was in actuality the Claudii Pulchri,
        her
        > father having been born Appius Claudius Pulcher.
        >
        >
        > All her sons and grandsons included the name 'Drusus'?
        >
        > Are you sure?
        >
        > Does that include her eldest son, 'Tiberius Claudius Nero'?
        >
        > Barry
        >

        Hi Barry,

        I think the full name for male members of this branch of the Claudian
        gens was Tiberius Claudius Nero Drusus Germanicus, but the order of
        the names might have been slightly different.

        In regard to the Octavian/Livia relationship, I seem to recall that
        her father was proscribed by the Octavian,Anthony and Lepidus
        triumvirate and she and her first husband with the infant Tiberius
        fled from Perusia in fear of the Triumvirs. If Suetonius is to be
        believed, Livia never forgot who was responsible for the death of her
        father and she eventually killed Octavian by poisoning his food. In
        the intervening period of their marriage, Livia arranged for the
        demise of Octavian's male relatives(Marcellus,Gaius and Lucius Caesar,
        and Agrippa Postumus) in order to clear the way for her son Tiberius
        to succeed Octavian as Emperor of Rome.

        Alf
      • postumusagrippa
        ... No. (sorry, if I m too blunt) I can say for certain that Tiberius (the second Princeps) was never a Germanicus of any sort. That name was posthumously
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 4, 2008
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          > I think the full name for male members of this branch of the Claudian
          > gens was Tiberius Claudius Nero Drusus Germanicus, but the order of
          > the names might have been slightly different.

          No. (sorry, if I'm too blunt)

          I can say for certain that Tiberius (the second Princeps) was never a
          'Germanicus' of any sort.

          That name was posthumously given to his younger brother (Drusus Major)
          in honour of his victories against the Germans.

          It was never carried by Tiberius or his son, Drusus Minor (Drusus
          Minor did name (or Livilla named) one of his sons 'Germanicus', but
          apart from that, no...).

          I am also certain that Tiberius was never a Drusus of any shape or
          form - I have seen a fair number of inscriptions of Tiberius and not
          once does his name include Drusus.

          Tiberius was named after his father - Tiberius Claudius Nero.

          No 'Drusus', no 'Germanicus'.

          In fact, according to someone (Suetonius, I think), Drusus wasn't even
          originally called Drusus - I think his original name was Decimus.

          Actually that might be wrong, he might have been Decimus Claudius
          Drusus (or was it Decimus Claudius Nero...? I can't remember right
          now), but it did include 'Decimus' and was changed after the elder
          Claudius Nero died.

          Feel free to look all this up, if you want...


          > In regard to the Octavian/Livia relationship, I seem to recall that
          > her father was proscribed by the Octavian,Anthony and Lepidus
          > triumvirate and she and her first husband with the infant Tiberius
          > fled from Perusia in fear of the Triumvirs. If Suetonius is to be
          > believed, Livia never forgot who was responsible for the death of her
          > father and she eventually killed Octavian by poisoning his food. In
          > the intervening period of their marriage, Livia arranged for the
          > demise of Octavian's male relatives(Marcellus,Gaius and Lucius Caesar,
          > and Agrippa Postumus) in order to clear the way for her son Tiberius
          > to succeed Octavian as Emperor of Rome.

          I'm sure that's a possibility, but it does sound a little bit like "I,
          Claudius" (with Derek Jacobi) to me.

          Questions remain over what (if any) deaths Livia may or may not have
          caused... it seems common to believe that Livia did not kill any one
          (be it Marcellus, Caius, Lucius, Postumus or Augustus), but that does
          not mean she was innocent.

          Unfortunately, it's extremely improbable that we'll ever find out.

          However, it is interesting to note the high mortality rate of the
          close male relative of Augustus, which may suggest that not all of
          them were natural.

          Personally, I believe that the most likely to have suffered at the
          hands of Livia is Agrippa Postumus, who may have been removed through
          the machinations of Livia. Alternatively, Augustus may have believed
          that it was safer to leave his Principate in 'safe' hands - ie.
          Tiberius, who had supposedly proven himself and had a son, a
          nephew/adopted son, one or two great-nephews/adopted grandsons, plus
          Livia; Postumus on the other hand had himself (at least Vipsania
          Julia... and probably Vipsania Agrippina II. To be honest, I can
          hardly see how Vipsania Agrippina II would have preferred Tiberius
          over her own brother).

          Still that's just my opinion (and after all, my user name is
          postumusagrippa, so I think you can see where my sympathies lie!).

          However, like I said, unfortunately, it's unlikely that we'll ever
          know if Livia had anything to do with the aforementioned deaths.

          Barry
        • Hahn Irene
          The answer to all this can also be found at Smith s Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, http:// www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/, at the
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 4, 2008
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            The answer to all this can also be found at Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/, at the Ancient Library site, http://www.ancientlibrary.com/, an excellent resource.


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