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Re: [Imperial Rome] Surgery in Ancient Rome

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  • khakiberetman
    Galen of Pergamum, the famous 2nd century doctor, was one time employed as a surgeon by gladiators, which allowed him first hand knowledge of inner anatomy. It
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 1, 2002
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      Galen of Pergamum, the famous 2nd century doctor, was one
      time employed as a surgeon by gladiators, which allowed him
      first hand knowledge of inner anatomy. It seems to treatment of
      wounds was quite decent, as showed by the surgical
      instruments ( I once saw a full "doctor's kit" found at Ostia) but as
      in many more centuries the main problems lay with the
      possibility of infection.
    • Jane Richards
      Inner anatomy had been known for centuries before Rome. This was precipitated by the use of the ancient Egyptian mummification traditions, begun in
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 1, 2002
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        'Inner anatomy' had been known for centuries before
        Rome. This was precipitated by the use of the ancient
        Egyptian mummification traditions, begun in
        predynastic times. Many of the medical papyri, which
        had been written by the AE medicos, had been copied by
        the Greeks at the time of the Ptolomaic era.. These
        were well known to the Romans.[ie: Smith Papyri,
        Westcar Papyri, are two examples].
        Jane Richards
        --- khakiberetman <no_reply@...> wrote:
        > Galen of Pergamum, the famous 2nd century doctor,
        > was one
        > time employed as a surgeon by gladiators, which
        > allowed him
        > first hand knowledge of inner anatomy. It seems to
        > treatment of
        > wounds was quite decent, as showed by the surgical
        > instruments ( I once saw a full "doctor's kit" found
        > at Ostia) but as
        > in many more centuries the main problems lay with
        > the
        > possibility of infection.
        >
        >


        =====
        isis@...
        Website:
        http://www.isis@.../isis [out of commission, temp.]

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      • Arnamentia Aurelia
        Galen s writing were used to train doctors until the 16th or 17th century, if I remember right. Arnamentia Aurelia ...
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 1, 2002
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          Galen's writing were used to train doctors until the
          16th or 17th century, if I remember right.

          Arnamentia Aurelia


          --- khakiberetman <no_reply@...> wrote:
          > Galen of Pergamum, the famous 2nd century doctor,
          > was one
          > time employed as a surgeon by gladiators, which
          > allowed him
          > first hand knowledge of inner anatomy. It seems to
          > treatment of
          > wounds was quite decent, as showed by the surgical
          > instruments ( I once saw a full "doctor's kit" found
          > at Ostia) but as
          > in many more centuries the main problems lay with
          > the
          > possibility of infection.
          >
          >


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        • gauiscaecilius
          Probably even later I suspect. It was only in the nineteenth century that medicine advanced much beyond the ancient world.
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 1, 2002
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            Probably even later I suspect. It was only in the nineteenth century
            that medicine advanced much beyond the ancient world.

            --- In imperialrome2@y..., Arnamentia Aurelia
            <arnamentia_aurelia@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Galen's writing were used to train doctors until the
            > 16th or 17th century, if I remember right.
            >
            > Arnamentia Aurelia
            >
            >
            > --- khakiberetman <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > > Galen of Pergamum, the famous 2nd century doctor,
            > > was one
            > > time employed as a surgeon by gladiators, which
            > > allowed him
            > > first hand knowledge of inner anatomy. It seems to
            > > treatment of
            > > wounds was quite decent, as showed by the surgical
            > > instruments ( I once saw a full "doctor's kit" found
            > > at Ostia) but as
            > > in many more centuries the main problems lay with
            > > the
            > > possibility of infection.
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
            > http://health.yahoo.com
          • Arnamentia Aurelia
            Yes, that s right. I m trying to remember the details of a show that was on PBS not too long ago, actually a companion to a book, called Blood. Most of what
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 1, 2002
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              Yes, that's right. I'm trying to remember the details
              of a show that was on PBS not too long ago, actually a
              companion to a book, called "Blood." Most of what they
              had to say about Galen was regarding his theory of the
              different humours, and how bloodletting remained
              popular for so long.

              Very interesting.

              Arnamentia Aurelia


              --- gauiscaecilius <gauiscaecilius@...> wrote:
              > Probably even later I suspect. It was only in the
              > nineteenth century
              > that medicine advanced much beyond the ancient
              > world.
              >
              > --- In imperialrome2@y..., Arnamentia Aurelia
              > <arnamentia_aurelia@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Galen's writing were used to train doctors until
              > the
              > > 16th or 17th century, if I remember right.
              > >
              > > Arnamentia Aurelia
              > >
              > >
              > > --- khakiberetman <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > > > Galen of Pergamum, the famous 2nd century
              > doctor,
              > > > was one
              > > > time employed as a surgeon by gladiators, which
              > > > allowed him
              > > > first hand knowledge of inner anatomy. It seems
              > to
              > > > treatment of
              > > > wounds was quite decent, as showed by the
              > surgical
              > > > instruments ( I once saw a full "doctor's kit"
              > found
              > > > at Ostia) but as
              > > > in many more centuries the main problems lay
              > with
              > > > the
              > > > possibility of infection.
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > __________________________________________________
              > > Do You Yahoo!?
              > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
              > > http://health.yahoo.com
              >
              >


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            • khakiberetman
              I was struck by the detailed description of the wounds made in the Iliad, and wondered if this did not also serve as text to introduce certain wounds to
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 1, 2002
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                I was struck by the detailed description of the wounds made in
                the Iliad, and wondered if this did not also serve as text to
                introduce certain wounds to medical students.

                The Romans may not have been pioneers of surgical practice, in
                terms of dissection of the body towards mummification, but it is
                particularly interesting that their very militarised society offered
                plenty of surgical practice on live patients, precisely in order to
                keep them alive. As they practiced cremation, the Romans unlike
                the Ehyptians did not attach importance to the conservation of
                corpses, not to mention that their original climate was less
                helpful to the practice as well.

                But I think it is well accepted that the Romans had high regard
                for the "medical academies" of the Hellenistic world, Kos, with its
                ancient traditions, but also Alexandria in particular, or
                Pergamum, Galen's home town.
              • Jane Richards
                No, the Romans didn t seem to practice mummification, as the ancient Egyptians religious traditions did, but much of what they learned about anatomy was
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 1, 2002
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                  No, the Romans didn't seem to practice mummification,
                  as the ancient Egyptians' religious traditions did,
                  but much of what they 'learned' about anatomy was from
                  the information which had already been written by the
                  AE. The medical papyri which have been discovered were
                  rewritten, or copied in Ptolomaic times, from very
                  ancient texts. The AE had particular knowledge of
                  treating and healing wounds created during battles.
                  They had been using pain killers, and 'stitching'
                  wounds, setting broken bones and even doing brain
                  surgery as early as the Old Kingdom, and for certain
                  by the Middle Kingdom. The Romans who lived in Egypt
                  [or were stationed there] sometimes employed
                  mummification, too, [although by this late date it
                  wasn't as sophisticated as was the earlier practices.
                  Jane R.
                  --- khakiberetman <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  > I was struck by the detailed description of the
                  > wounds made in
                  > the Iliad, and wondered if this did not also serve
                  > as text to
                  > introduce certain wounds to medical students.
                  >
                  > The Romans may not have been pioneers of surgical
                  > practice, in
                  > terms of dissection of the body towards
                  > mummification, but it is
                  > particularly interesting that their very militarised
                  > society offered
                  > plenty of surgical practice on live patients,
                  > precisely in order to
                  > keep them alive. As they practiced cremation, the
                  > Romans unlike
                  > the Ehyptians did not attach importance to the
                  > conservation of
                  > corpses, not to mention that their original climate
                  > was less
                  > helpful to the practice as well.
                  >
                  > But I think it is well accepted that the Romans had
                  > high regard
                  > for the "medical academies" of the Hellenistic
                  > world, Kos, with its
                  > ancient traditions, but also Alexandria in
                  > particular, or
                  > Pergamum, Galen's home town.
                  >
                  >


                  =====
                  isis@...
                  Website:
                  http://www.isis@.../isis [out of commission, temp.]

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                • gauiscaecilius
                  Certainly Egyptian buria practices would have greatly added to knowledge of anatomy for the same sort of reason military surgeons had a lot of knowledge of how
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 1, 2002
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                    Certainly Egyptian buria practices would have greatly added to
                    knowledge of anatomy for the same sort of reason military surgeons
                    had a lot of knowledge of how bodies worked.
                    -
                    -- In imperialrome2@y..., Jane Richards <isis1037@y...> wrote:
                    > No, the Romans didn't seem to practice mummification,
                    > as the ancient Egyptians' religious traditions did,
                    > but much of what they 'learned' about anatomy was from
                    > the information which had already been written by the
                    > AE. The medical papyri which have been discovered were
                    > rewritten, or copied in Ptolomaic times, from very
                    > ancient texts. The AE had particular knowledge of
                    > treating and healing wounds created during battles.
                    > They had been using pain killers, and 'stitching'
                    > wounds, setting broken bones and even doing brain
                    > surgery as early as the Old Kingdom, and for certain
                    > by the Middle Kingdom. The Romans who lived in Egypt
                    > [or were stationed there] sometimes employed
                    > mummification, too, [although by this late date it
                    > wasn't as sophisticated as was the earlier practices.
                    > Jane R.
                    > --- khakiberetman <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > > I was struck by the detailed description of the
                    > > wounds made in
                    > > the Iliad, and wondered if this did not also serve
                    > > as text to
                    > > introduce certain wounds to medical students.
                    > >
                    > > The Romans may not have been pioneers of surgical
                    > > practice, in
                    > > terms of dissection of the body towards
                    > > mummification, but it is
                    > > particularly interesting that their very militarised
                    > > society offered
                    > > plenty of surgical practice on live patients,
                    > > precisely in order to
                    > > keep them alive. As they practiced cremation, the
                    > > Romans unlike
                    > > the Ehyptians did not attach importance to the
                    > > conservation of
                    > > corpses, not to mention that their original climate
                    > > was less
                    > > helpful to the practice as well.
                    > >
                    > > But I think it is well accepted that the Romans had
                    > > high regard
                    > > for the "medical academies" of the Hellenistic
                    > > world, Kos, with its
                    > > ancient traditions, but also Alexandria in
                    > > particular, or
                    > > Pergamum, Galen's home town.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > =====
                    > isis@y...
                    > Website:
                    > http://www.isis@a.../isis [out of commission, temp.]
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
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                  • khakiberetman
                    A few years ago I visited an exhibition about the Louvre about the Fayum Portraits , these very intimate individual portraits of men and women from Lower
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 2, 2002
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                      A few years ago I visited an exhibition about the Louvre about the
                      "Fayum Portraits", these very intimate individual portraits of men
                      and women from Lower Egypt dated from the 2nd and 3rd
                      centuries AD. Apparently these portraits were those of deceased
                      persons who would have them placed on their mummified
                      bodies before burrial. The very dry climate of the Fayum ensured
                      the conservation of these beautiful paintings.

                      The portraits indeed represent people who look (from dress,
                      hairstyle, and accessories worn) more like middle-class
                      Romans living in Egypt rather than native Egyptians.

                      Although these Romans adopted the complex process of
                      mummification, the mummies themselves were simply burried,
                      with no surrounding tomb, and the portrait acted almost as a
                      headstone.
                    • jachthondus
                      ... I happened to see these Fayum Portraits also, Khaki! These big-eyes, (as like in later-Eastern-Roman mosaics), did make a great impression on me...
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 2, 2002
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                        --- In imperialrome2@y..., khakiberetman <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > A few years ago I visited an exhibition about the Louvre about the
                        > "Fayum Portraits", these very intimate individual portraits of men
                        > and women from Lower Egypt dated from the 2nd and 3rd
                        > centuries AD. Apparently these portraits were those of deceased
                        > persons who would have them placed on their mummified
                        > bodies before burrial. The very dry climate of the Fayum ensured
                        > the conservation of these beautiful paintings.
                        >
                        > The portraits indeed represent people who look (from dress,
                        > hairstyle, and accessories worn) more like middle-class
                        > Romans living in Egypt rather than native Egyptians.
                        >
                        > Although these Romans adopted the complex process of
                        > mummification, the mummies themselves were simply burried,
                        > with no surrounding tomb, and the portrait acted almost as a
                        > headstone.

                        I happened to see these "Fayum Portraits" also, Khaki!

                        These big-eyes, (as like in later-Eastern-Roman mosaics), did make a
                        great impression on me...
                        Thanks for mentioning this exhibition!

                        Greetings, Jach.
                      • Jane Richards
                        Yes, the coffins were usually made of a type of what we would now call paper machie [sp]. They had no tomb complexes, [although some have been found in
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 2, 2002
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                          Yes, the coffins were usually made of a type of what
                          we would now call 'paper machie' [sp]. They had no
                          'tomb complexes, [although some have been found in
                          'reused' tombs constructed in AE antiquity]. Many have
                          been found near, in and around the Cairo and Fayium
                          areas. F few have also been found in the Saqqura area,
                          ususually at the N.W. tip on a sort of 'plateau area'.
                          There seems to have been no 'class destinction' used
                          for most. One of the unusual ones they have found,
                          which was of a more elaborate coffin, was a priest of
                          the old religion which suggests that it was still
                          being practiced in the Roman times. [although a
                          'garden variety' of the traditional ancient religion].
                          Of course, even in AE, the lower classes weren't
                          accorded the elaborate burials of the royals and
                          wealthy, either.
                          A very large necropolis of Greek and Roman date has
                          been discovered in Alexandria, also. It was, at one
                          time, above ground and contained some quite ornate
                          above ground tombs [or mausoleums] which were very
                          colorful. Under this above ground area were the more
                          'Roman' catacombs type of burials. The water table has
                          obliterated and filled most of them at this time, but
                          some of the names can still be discerned on the fronts
                          of the niches. The above ground areas have all been
                          destroyed. [remenants were found by archaeologists
                          working in the area.] The is a website which shows a
                          computer enhanced or reconstruction of what it
                          probably looked like in antiquity. I just can't seem
                          to remember where it is.....
                          Jane Richards [isis]
                          --- khakiberetman <no_reply@...> wrote:
                          > A few years ago I visited an exhibition about the
                          > Louvre about the
                          > "Fayum Portraits", these very intimate individual
                          > portraits of men
                          > and women from Lower Egypt dated from the 2nd and
                          > 3rd
                          > centuries AD. Apparently these portraits were those
                          > of deceased
                          > persons who would have them placed on their
                          > mummified
                          > bodies before burrial. The very dry climate of the
                          > Fayum ensured
                          > the conservation of these beautiful paintings.
                          >
                          > The portraits indeed represent people who look (from
                          > dress,
                          > hairstyle, and accessories worn) more like
                          > middle-class
                          > Romans living in Egypt rather than native Egyptians.
                          >
                          > Although these Romans adopted the complex process of
                          >
                          > mummification, the mummies themselves were simply
                          > burried,
                          > with no surrounding tomb, and the portrait acted
                          > almost as a
                          > headstone.
                          >
                          >


                          =====
                          isis@...
                          Website:
                          http://www.isis@.../isis [out of commission, temp.]

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                        • Mary Harrsch
                          I always make a point of looking for Faiyum portraits whenever I visit a museum with an Egyptian section. I saw several at the Chicago Field Museum when I was
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 2, 2002
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                            I always make a point of looking for Faiyum portraits whenever I visit a museum with an Egyptian section.  I saw several at the Chicago Field Museum when I was there a couple of years ago.  Here are some excellent examples:
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            - Libitina
                             
                            Mary Harrsch
                            Network & Information Systems Manager
                            College of Education
                            University of Oregon
                            Eugene, OR  97403
                            (541) 346-3554
                            http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~mharrsch
                             
                            Commentary Section Editor
                            The Technology Source
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:39 AM
                            Subject: [Imperial Rome] Mummies in Roman Egypt

                            A few years ago I visited an exhibition about the Louvre about the
                            "Fayum Portraits", these very intimate individual portraits of men
                            and women from Lower Egypt dated from the 2nd and 3rd
                            centuries AD. Apparently these portraits were those of deceased
                            persons who would have them placed on their mummified
                            bodies before burrial. The very dry climate of the Fayum ensured
                            the conservation of these beautiful paintings.

                            The portraits indeed represent people who look (from dress,
                            hairstyle, and accessories worn) more like middle-class
                            Romans living in Egypt rather than native Egyptians.

                            Although these Romans adopted the complex process of
                            mummification, the mummies themselves were simply burried,
                            with no surrounding tomb, and the portrait acted almost as a
                            headstone.



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                          • Tina Phillips
                            I ve seen pictures of these Fayum Portraits in one of my history books, and they were amazing. I hope I get to see them when I go to the Louvre next year. By
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 2, 2002
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                              I've seen pictures of these "Fayum Portraits" in one of my history books, and they were amazing. I hope I get to see them when I go to the Louvre next year.

                              By the way, for anyone interested, there is a group called "The New Roman Republic" that I belong to. What we are doing, is creating a new Roman Republic, with Latin now being our second official language. We are looking for more citizens, anyone interested, you can go to http://respublicanova.tripod.com and become a roman citizen :D.

                              Tina

                              >From: khakiberetman
                              >Reply-To: imperialrome2@...
                              >To: imperialrome2@...
                              >Subject: [Imperial Rome] Mummies in Roman Egypt
                              >Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:39:22 -0000
                              >
                              >A few years ago I visited an exhibition about the Louvre about the
                              >"Fayum Portraits", these very intimate individual portraits of men
                              >and women from Lower Egypt dated from the 2nd and 3rd
                              >centuries AD. Apparently these portraits were those of deceased
                              >persons who would have them placed on their mummified
                              >bodies before burrial. The very dry climate of the Fayum ensured
                              >the conservation of these beautiful paintings.
                              >
                              >The portraits indeed represent people who look (from dress,
                              >hairstyle, and accessories worn) more like middle-class
                              >Romans living in Egypt rather than native Egyptians.
                              >
                              >Although these Romans adopted the complex process of
                              >mummification, the mummies themselves were simply burried,
                              >with no surrounding tomb, and the portrait acted almost as a
                              >headstone.
                              >
                              >
                              >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              >imperialrome2-unsubscribe@...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html
                              >
                              >


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