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Staysail Dimensions

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  • olivershaw4229
    Can anyone help me with the (accurate) luff length for the staysail, please? This is for the gaff rig version; there is a query, arising from the original
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 9, 2016

      Can anyone help me with the (accurate) luff length for the staysail,  please?


      This is for the gaff rig version;  there is a query,  arising from the original sales brochure,  whether headsail areas are interchanged between the gaff and Bermudian versions,  but the printed data which gives rise to this query may be merely a misprint.


      Following the theft of my car last September,  with a lot of kit from the boat inside it,  this is one of the many things that I have to replace for next season.


      The luff length is the critical dimension,  since the available distance from deck fitting to halliard block is limited,  I  need to allow for furling gear within that distance,  and I insist on being able to properly tension the luff  -  so I don't want to find that I end up with the top swivel chock-a-block with the halliard block.


      I will shortly measure the bare rig,  on the boat,  (I shall have to re-step the mast first),  but a check with an actual sail would also be useful.


      My own measurements of all the sails last summer were made with the sails laid flat on the ground,  but not properly tensioned,  and were intended to be no more than an approximate guide;   I never dreamed that I would need to have a new sail made in quite these circumstances.    But on that limited basis I made the luff length to be 3370 mm,  or 11.06 feet.


      However Jeckells,  who will be making the new sail,  tell me that their file gives a luff length of 12 ft,  which is 3660 mm.   Thus a foot difference,  which is a substantial discrepancy.


      Some considerable time ago I had a limited number of dimensions from Lucas Sails,  limited because their file is incomplete,  which gives the luff length as 3180 mm;  different again.


      And in December 2009 member Spiko13 posted his sail dimensions,  which admittedly are for the bermudian rig version,  giving a staysail luff length as 3500 mm.


      So it seems that we have four significantly different figures,  and I cannot believe that there really is that much variation between different Privateer 20 staysails.    Can anyone conveniently measure up please?    That is particularly for the gaff rig version (just in case there is any difference).


      Thanks,





      Oliver




    • Tony Glover
      Hi Have just dragged the sails off my gaff rigged Privateer 20 to give them a clean. The foresails are brown Terralyn(?) hank on type which came with the boat.
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 12, 2016
        Hi
        Have just dragged the sails off my gaff rigged Privateer 20 to give them a clean.
        The foresails are brown Terralyn(?) hank on type which came with the boat.

        I've measured them total maximum length (inc eyes / excluding any fittings) and while stretching them firmly by hand.

        The measurements are:
        Jib
        Luff:     4110mm
        Leach: 2860mm
        Foot:    2160mm

        Staysail
        Luff:     3420mm
        Leach: 2845mm
        Foot:   2040mm

        Hope these are of use.
        Regards
        Tony


        On 9 December 2016 at 11:22, acapella13934@... [privateer20] <privateer20@...> wrote:
         

        Can anyone help me with the (accurate) luff length for the staysail,  please?


        This is for the gaff rig version;  there is a query,  arising from the original sales brochure,  whether headsail areas are interchanged between the gaff and Bermudian versions,  but the printed data which gives rise to this query may be merely a misprint.


        Following the theft of my car last September,  with a lot of kit from the boat inside it,  this is one of the many things that I have to replace for next season.


        The luff length is the critical dimension,  since the available distance from deck fitting to halliard block is limited,  I  need to allow for furling gear within that distance,  and I insist on being able to properly tension the luff  -  so I don't want to find that I end up with the top swivel chock-a-block with the halliard block.


        I will shortly measure the bare rig,  on the boat,  (I shall have to re-step the mast first),  but a check with an actual sail would also be useful.


        My own measurements of all the sails last summer were made with the sails laid flat on the ground,  but not properly tensioned,  and were intended to be no more than an approximate guide;   I never dreamed that I would need to have a new sail made in quite these circumstances.    But on that limited basis I made the luff length to be 3370 mm,  or 11.06 feet.


        However Jeckells,  who will be making the new sail,  tell me that their file gives a luff length of 12 ft,  which is 3660 mm.   Thus a foot difference,  which is a substantial discrepancy.


        Some considerable time ago I had a limited number of dimensions from Lucas Sails,  limited because their file is incomplete,  which gives the luff length as 3180 mm;  different again.


        And in December 2009 member Spiko13 posted his sail dimensions,  which admittedly are for the bermudian rig version,  giving a staysail luff length as 3500 mm.


        So it seems that we have four significantly different figures,  and I cannot believe that there really is that much variation between different Privateer 20 staysails.    Can anyone conveniently measure up please?    That is particularly for the gaff rig version (just in case there is any difference).


        Thanks,





        Oliver





      • olivershaw4229
        Many thanks. And good luck with the cleaning. Regards, Oliver
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 12, 2016
          Many thanks.

          And good luck with the cleaning.


          Regards,



          Oliver

        • Aart van der Pol
          Hi Oliver, Since I am not at home at the moment I can not give you teh measurement. End of this week I can give you a measurement if still needed. I would tent
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 13, 2016
            Hi Oliver,
            Since I am not at home at the moment I can not give you teh measurement. End of this week I can give you a measurement if still needed.
            I would tent to the shorter length. At my boat indeed with the furling gear underneath there is hardly enough space.
            Aart

            2016-12-09 12:22 GMT+01:00 acapella13934@... [privateer20] <privateer20@...>:
             

            Can anyone help me with the (accurate) luff length for the staysail,  please?


            This is for the gaff rig version;  there is a query,  arising from the original sales brochure,  whether headsail areas are interchanged between the gaff and Bermudian versions,  but the printed data which gives rise to this query may be merely a misprint.


            Following the theft of my car last September,  with a lot of kit from the boat inside it,  this is one of the many things that I have to replace for next season.


            The luff length is the critical dimension,  since the available distance from deck fitting to halliard block is limited,  I  need to allow for furling gear within that distance,  and I insist on being able to properly tension the luff  -  so I don't want to find that I end up with the top swivel chock-a-block with the halliard block.


            I will shortly measure the bare rig,  on the boat,  (I shall have to re-step the mast first),  but a check with an actual sail would also be useful.


            My own measurements of all the sails last summer were made with the sails laid flat on the ground,  but not properly tensioned,  and were intended to be no more than an approximate guide;   I never dreamed that I would need to have a new sail made in quite these circumstances.    But on that limited basis I made the luff length to be 3370 mm,  or 11.06 feet.


            However Jeckells,  who will be making the new sail,  tell me that their file gives a luff length of 12 ft,  which is 3660 mm.   Thus a foot difference,  which is a substantial discrepancy.


            Some considerable time ago I had a limited number of dimensions from Lucas Sails,  limited because their file is incomplete,  which gives the luff length as 3180 mm;  different again.


            And in December 2009 member Spiko13 posted his sail dimensions,  which admittedly are for the bermudian rig version,  giving a staysail luff length as 3500 mm.


            So it seems that we have four significantly different figures,  and I cannot believe that there really is that much variation between different Privateer 20 staysails.    Can anyone conveniently measure up please?    That is particularly for the gaff rig version (just in case there is any difference).


            Thanks,





            Oliver





          • olivershaw4229
            Aart, Thank you, that would be most helpful. I hope to step the mast today, and then measure up the bare rig, but measurements of actual sails would help to
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 13, 2016
              Aart,

              Thank you,  that would be most helpful.

              I hope to step the mast today,  and then measure up the bare rig,  but measurements of actual sails would help to build a better picture.

              Remarkably,  I now have five different measurements to choose from,  covering the range 3180 to 3660 mm;     the two furthest apart are from good sailmakers(!),  one is my own somewhat crude measurement from last January (but without properly tensioning the sail),  and the other two are from other owners.

              I hope to be in a position to make a decision on the length and place the order for the new sail before Christmas,  so early next week would be fine.

              Thank you,




              Oliver

            • AnneliesenHeiko Glansbeek
              Oliver Just measured the front sail of the Joy ( gaff rigged) The Jib is 4080 mm Stay sail is 3380 mm kind regards Heiko Glansbeek
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 13, 2016
                Oliver

                Just measured the front sail of the Joy ( gaff rigged)

                The Jib is 4080 mm
                Stay sail is 3380 mm

                kind regards 

                Heiko Glansbeek
                Op 13 dec. 2016, om 15:22 heeft acapella13934@... [privateer20] <privateer20@...> het volgende geschreven:


                Aart,

                Thank you,  that would be most helpful.

                I hope to step the mast today,  and then measure up the bare rig,  but measurements of actual sails would help to build a better picture.

                Remarkably,  I now have five different measurements to choose from,  covering the range 3180 to 3660 mm;     the two furthest apart are from good sailmakers(!),  one is my own somewhat crude measurement from last January (but without properly tensioning the sail),  and the other two are from other owners.

                I hope to be in a position to make a decision on the length and place the order for the new sail before Christmas,  so early next week would be fine.

                Thank you,




                Oliver



              • olivershaw4229
                Many thanks, Heiko. Those figures are very close to the rough ones which I measured in January, and much closer than any of the other figures that have
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 13, 2016
                  Many thanks,  Heiko.

                  Those figures are very close to the rough ones which I measured in January,  and much closer than any of the other figures that have emerged.



                  Oliver

                • olivershaw4229
                  As a washup to this little exercise, for the benefit of posterity - and in the shorter term the benefit of other members - once I have finished assembling
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 13, 2016
                    As a washup to this little exercise,  for the benefit of posterity  -  and in the shorter term the benefit of other members  -  once I have finished assembling the data I will post a spreadsheet giving all the available data.

                    That may help someone else in the future if the need to order new sails arises.

                    There is clearly a significant degree of variation between different sources,  which is surprising;   but at least people can then make an informed decision.




                    Oliver

                  • AnneliesenHeiko Glansbeek
                    Oliver If the difference is only a couple of mm ,we should agree howe to measure. I measured from spacing to spacing ,supposed that is the correct way to do it
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 14, 2016
                      Oliver

                      If the difference is only a couple of mm ,we should agree howe to measure.
                      I measured from spacing to spacing ,supposed that is the correct way to do it 

                      Kind regards
                      Met vriendelijke groet,

                      Heiko

                      Op 13 dec. 2016 om 23:00 heeft acapella13934@... [privateer20] <privateer20@...> het volgende geschreven:

                       

                      As a washup to this little exercise,  for the benefit of posterity  -  and in the shorter term the benefit of other members  -  once I have finished assembling the data I will post a spreadsheet giving all the available data.

                      That may help someone else in the future if the need to order new sails arises.

                      There is clearly a significant degree of variation between different sources,  which is surprising;   but at least people can then make an informed decision.




                      Oliver

                    • olivershaw4229
                      Heiko, The difference between your figures and mine is 10 mm, which is still much closer than any of the other figures. You make it 3380 mm, as against my
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 14, 2016
                        Heiko,

                        The difference between your figures and mine is 10 mm,  which is still much closer than any of the other figures.   You make it 3380 mm,  as against my approximate 3370 mm.

                        Indeed the luff lengths may be identical,  and the apparent difference may be just because I was doing a quick (and approximate) job,  and so laid the sails out flat on my driveway but it wasn't convenient to set up any tension on them.

                        The measurement should be between the bearing surfaces of the cringles,  and ideally the sail should be under light tension.

                        In the end I didn't manage to get my mast stepped yesterday;   I was otherwise tied up until mid afternoon,  and by then the weather was starting to break and the daylight was fading fast.    Not free at all today,  which is a pity because it is a glorious day for it,  but now hoping to do it on Thursday,  weather permitting.

                        Thanks again for your help.



                        Oliver

                      • Aart van der Pol
                        Hi Oliver, I made a crude measurement by hand stretching. The measurements are: *Jib* Luff: 410.50 cm (measured from the farthest points of the inside of
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 20, 2016
                          Hi Oliver,
                          I made a crude measurement by hand stretching.
                          The measurements are:
                          Jib
                          Luff:     410.50 cm (measured from the farthest points of the inside of the rings; they are oval now by the heavy tension)
                          Leach:  282 cm (measured end to end)
                          Foot:    216 cm (measured end to end)

                          Staysail
                          Luff:     343 cm (measured from the farthest points of the inside of the rings; they are oval now by the heavy tension)
                          Leach: 288 cm (measured end to end)
                          Foot:   206 cm (measured end to end)

                          For the staysail I  think you should not go for a longer luff than 343 cm. My furling gear has only just enough space!
                          Aart




                          2016-12-14 12:13 GMT+01:00 acapella13934@... [privateer20] <privateer20@...>:
                           

                          Heiko,

                          The difference between your figures and mine is 10 mm,  which is still much closer than any of the other figures.   You make it 3380 mm,  as against my approximate 3370 mm.

                          Indeed the luff lengths may be identical,  and the apparent difference may be just because I was doing a quick (and approximate) job,  and so laid the sails out flat on my driveway but it wasn't convenient to set up any tension on them.

                          The measurement should be between the bearing surfaces of the cringles,  and ideally the sail should be under light tension.

                          In the end I didn't manage to get my mast stepped yesterday;   I was otherwise tied up until mid afternoon,  and by then the weather was starting to break and the daylight was fading fast.    Not free at all today,  which is a pity because it is a glorious day for it,  but now hoping to do it on Thursday,  weather permitting.

                          Thanks again for your help.



                          Oliver


                        • olivershaw4229
                          Many thanks for this, and likewise to all those other members who have contributed measurements. I also managed to get my mast stepped today, albeit without
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 20, 2016
                            Many thanks for this,  and likewise to all those other members who have contributed measurements.

                            I also managed to get my mast stepped today,  albeit without being able to properly tension the foretriangle -  I discovered that the rigging screws for the forestays were also in the car when it was stolen  -  and measured the available length.

                            For what it is worth,  the luff lengths reported by members are all grouped within the range 3370 to 3430 for the gaff rig version,  a range of just 60 mm or 2.4 inches (and 3500 mm for the Bermudian version),  which is not a lot of variation.   The two figures from sailmakers both lie a significant distance either side of this range!

                            My foretriangle measurement suggests there may be just a little more length available,  but since I was unable to fully tension the rig I am not prepared to rely on that.    One potential problem I most certainly do not want to end up with is a luff which is just too long to enable me to correctly tension it.

                            I now have all the data in a spreadsheet,  and I have just attempted to upload this to our Files section for future reference.   For some reason known only to Yahoo it won't allow me to do so,  but I hope this is only a temporary glitch,  so I will try again later.

                            Thanks again to all who contributed.




                            Oliver
                          • olivershaw4229
                            ... Spreadsheet now successfully uploaded. Go to the Files section, and it is in the main folder. Since there is some degree of variation between different
                            Message 13 of 13 , Dec 20, 2016
                              > I now have all the data in a spreadsheet,  and I have just attempted to upload this to our Files section for future reference.   For some reason known only to Yahoo it won't allow me to do so,  but I hope this is only a temporary glitch,  so I will try again later.




                              Spreadsheet now successfully uploaded.    Go to the Files section,  and it is in the main folder.

                              Since there is some degree of variation between different boats,  members may like to also measure their own sails  -  while they still have them  -  and then record the details,  just in case they ever need to order replacements when the old ones are no longer available.




                              Oliver



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