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Re: Decoder Pro and Zimo 646 sound chip cv problem

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  • Mike Dunn
    Er, the SPROG is an interface device ... the program is JMRI. You ll have a better chance of an answer about JMRI asking on their Yahoo group ! Mike [Non-text
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 29, 2011
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      Er, the SPROG is an interface device ... the program is JMRI.



      You'll have a better chance of an answer about JMRI asking on their Yahoo
      group !



      Mike



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • ncliffe2001
      Andrew, Please update your JMRI to 2.14. In the year since 2.10 there has been changes to the Zimo decoder files (and a lot of other changes) If its still
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 29, 2011
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        Andrew,
        Please update your JMRI to 2.14. In the year since 2.10 there has been changes to the Zimo decoder files (and a lot of other changes)

        If its still problematic after an update , I'll look deeper into the decoder file definitions.


        Nigel

        --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello,
        >
        > I'm curretnly using Decoder Pro 2.10 which works pretty well with LokSound 3.5 and 4.0 chips. However I am now trying to set up a Zimo 646 sound chip (which does have quite an edge incidentally, on the Loksounds in terms of slow motor control) with my usual Sprog2 / Decoder Pro setup.
        > The problem is sporadic in that some of the CV settings that I change are accepted and saved, such as the de-cceleration rate and CV1 the loco identity no. But the accelerration rate and the motor "hertz" rate will not change. Or to be more accurate, I can change them and apparently write them to the loco but it changes back to the original setting straight after...very odd! I have tried attacking this problem via the specific tabs and in the general CV tab, but to no avail.
        >
        > Can anyone throw any light on what the problem might be?
        >
        > Kind regards
        > Andrew Duncan
        > PS I'd also like to be able to change CVs whilst running the loco through this setup. Is that an easy thing to do bearing in mind that I am as far from a computer programmer as you can imagine.
        >
      • Andrew Bluett-duncan
        Thanks Nigel, I ll give that a go and report back. Incidentally can point me in the right direction for tuning a chip whilst the loco is running? Kind regards
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 30, 2011
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          Thanks Nigel, I'll give that a go and report back. Incidentally can point me in the right direction for tuning a chip whilst the loco is running?
          Kind regards
          Andrew

          --- In sprog-dcc@..., "ncliffe2001" <ncliffe@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Andrew,
          > Please update your JMRI to 2.14. In the year since 2.10 there has been changes to the Zimo decoder files (and a lot of other changes)
          >
          > If its still problematic after an update , I'll look deeper into the decoder file definitions.
          >
          >
          > Nigel
          >
          > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello,
          > >
          > > I'm curretnly using Decoder Pro 2.10 which works pretty well with LokSound 3.5 and 4.0 chips. However I am now trying to set up a Zimo 646 sound chip (which does have quite an edge incidentally, on the Loksounds in terms of slow motor control) with my usual Sprog2 / Decoder Pro setup.
          > > The problem is sporadic in that some of the CV settings that I change are accepted and saved, such as the de-cceleration rate and CV1 the loco identity no. But the accelerration rate and the motor "hertz" rate will not change. Or to be more accurate, I can change them and apparently write them to the loco but it changes back to the original setting straight after...very odd! I have tried attacking this problem via the specific tabs and in the general CV tab, but to no avail.
          > >
          > > Can anyone throw any light on what the problem might be?
          > >
          > > Kind regards
          > > Andrew Duncan
          > > PS I'd also like to be able to change CVs whilst running the loco through this setup. Is that an easy thing to do bearing in mind that I am as far from a computer programmer as you can imagine.
          > >
          >
        • ncliffe2001
          Tuning in what sense ? There is making the motor run smoothly. Usually Zimo s work out of the box, though the Zimo manual has clues for the few cases where
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 31, 2011
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            Tuning in what sense ?

            There is making the motor run smoothly. Usually Zimo's work out of the box, though the Zimo manual has clues for the few cases where the default/automatic sections don't work.
            The Automatic Load Setting method works incredibly well; CV #302 = 75 read the Zimo manual **before** trying it.

            Then there is making the loco do what you want; setting speed ranges, acceleration, exponential acceleration, etc.

            Then there is matching sound to the loco speed; steam chuff rates, synchronisation, etc..


            - Nigel



            --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Thanks Nigel, I'll give that a go and report back. Incidentally can point me in the right direction for tuning a chip whilst the loco is running?
            > Kind regards
            > Andrew
            >
            > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "ncliffe2001" <ncliffe@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Andrew,
            > > Please update your JMRI to 2.14. In the year since 2.10 there has been changes to the Zimo decoder files (and a lot of other changes)
            > >
            > > If its still problematic after an update , I'll look deeper into the decoder file definitions.
            > >
            > >
            > > Nigel
            > >
            > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello,
            > > >
            > > > I'm curretnly using Decoder Pro 2.10 which works pretty well with LokSound 3.5 and 4.0 chips. However I am now trying to set up a Zimo 646 sound chip (which does have quite an edge incidentally, on the Loksounds in terms of slow motor control) with my usual Sprog2 / Decoder Pro setup.
            > > > The problem is sporadic in that some of the CV settings that I change are accepted and saved, such as the de-cceleration rate and CV1 the loco identity no. But the accelerration rate and the motor "hertz" rate will not change. Or to be more accurate, I can change them and apparently write them to the loco but it changes back to the original setting straight after...very odd! I have tried attacking this problem via the specific tabs and in the general CV tab, but to no avail.
            > > >
            > > > Can anyone throw any light on what the problem might be?
            > > >
            > > > Kind regards
            > > > Andrew Duncan
            > > > PS I'd also like to be able to change CVs whilst running the loco through this setup. Is that an easy thing to do bearing in mind that I am as far from a computer programmer as you can imagine.
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Andrew Bluett-duncan
            Dear Nigel, I m sorry I wasn t clear. I meant getting the chuff rate correctly set up whilst the loco s running, but there s probably other situations as well
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 2, 2012
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              Dear Nigel,

              I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant getting the chuff rate correctly set up whilst the loco's running, but there's probably other situations as well where this would be useful such as setting up Maxon motors with LokSound chips which don't seem to take to coreless motors as well as Zimo.
              I think what I'm asking for is "programming on main". Not sure if the terminology is right as I use ZTC for running my layout, which I don't think has that facility?

              Andrew
              --- In sprog-dcc@..., "ncliffe2001" <ncliffe@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Tuning in what sense ?
              >
              > There is making the motor run smoothly. Usually Zimo's work out of the box, though the Zimo manual has clues for the few cases where the default/automatic sections don't work.
              > The Automatic Load Setting method works incredibly well; CV #302 = 75 read the Zimo manual **before** trying it.
              >
              > Then there is making the loco do what you want; setting speed ranges, acceleration, exponential acceleration, etc.
              >
              > Then there is matching sound to the loco speed; steam chuff rates, synchronisation, etc..
              >
              >
              > - Nigel
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Thanks Nigel, I'll give that a go and report back. Incidentally can point me in the right direction for tuning a chip whilst the loco is running?
              > > Kind regards
              > > Andrew
              > >
              > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "ncliffe2001" <ncliffe@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Andrew,
              > > > Please update your JMRI to 2.14. In the year since 2.10 there has been changes to the Zimo decoder files (and a lot of other changes)
              > > >
              > > > If its still problematic after an update , I'll look deeper into the decoder file definitions.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Nigel
              > > >
              > > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hello,
              > > > >
              > > > > I'm curretnly using Decoder Pro 2.10 which works pretty well with LokSound 3.5 and 4.0 chips. However I am now trying to set up a Zimo 646 sound chip (which does have quite an edge incidentally, on the Loksounds in terms of slow motor control) with my usual Sprog2 / Decoder Pro setup.
              > > > > The problem is sporadic in that some of the CV settings that I change are accepted and saved, such as the de-cceleration rate and CV1 the loco identity no. But the accelerration rate and the motor "hertz" rate will not change. Or to be more accurate, I can change them and apparently write them to the loco but it changes back to the original setting straight after...very odd! I have tried attacking this problem via the specific tabs and in the general CV tab, but to no avail.
              > > > >
              > > > > Can anyone throw any light on what the problem might be?
              > > > >
              > > > > Kind regards
              > > > > Andrew Duncan
              > > > > PS I'd also like to be able to change CVs whilst running the loco through this setup. Is that an easy thing to do bearing in mind that I am as far from a computer programmer as you can imagine.
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • ncliffe2001
              Andrew, I don t think ZTC do programming on the main (you could write and ask ZTC when they will be updating their system...), so we need a work around with
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 3, 2012
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                Andrew,

                I don't think ZTC do "programming on the main" (you could write and ask ZTC when they will be updating their system...), so we need a work around with the Sprog.


                Firstly, use the Sprog to read all the CV values in from your decoder and save the results in JMRI. Then, connect Sprog to layout - DISCONNECT THE ZTC completely before doing this !!! (or can use a long test track, or a rolling road), and change the Connection Preferences within JMRI to "Sprog Command Station".
                [ Tips for this: Its simplest if the Sprog is turned off and then on again between changing mode. And if you setup DecoderPro3 to be "Sprog" and PanelPro to be "Sprog Command Station", you get the appropriate one without having to change preferences each time ]


                The Sprog will now do programming on the main. FIRST, turn on the track power within JMRI. Next select a Throttle in JMRI and confirm your loco can be selected and driven, various functions work, etc.. ( Note that a JMRI throttle can be changed from slider to steps via right-click on the slider, and that speed/direction can be driven from keyboard arrow keys)
                Now, open the decoder settings previously saved for the loco.

                That gets it ready for Programming on the main.

                Get the speed curve working to your satisfaction; start speed, middle, top, or the 28-point curve. Check your speed curves back with the ZTC before proceeding as the ZTC track voltage is probably different to the Sprog and this may alter how they drive.

                Then, assuming you have JMRI 2.14 (current release), the chuff rate for Zimo can be set with two parameters. On the "Sound" tab, second column, the top two elements are the chuff rate. Set the upper one with the loco running at about speed step 15 or 20; ie. modest pace, but you can still easily see what is happening. With the lower, try to set it with the loco running at speed step 1. The values needed are hard to predict, just keep trying until it "works".
                Those two should get the chuffs working well, though it usually involves a lot of fine tuning over and over again.

                There are a few other tricks on the Sound panel which may be useful. The "blow off time" (3 parameters) allows the loco to clear its drains before moving off.
                I usually set the "threshold for deceleration" to 1 and the "duration of reduced volume on deceleration" to 250. That means a tiny reduction in throttle (one step) will shut the regulator and the loco will coast for 25 seconds. A small increase in regulator will bring the chuff noises back up. I find it makes the loco sounds much more controllable by the driver.


                You can also use a couple of tools for Zimo which are available from the "Scripts" command. These help with complex function mapping (usually for lights) and sound PseudoProgramming (selecting which sound files are played, which function key controls which sound, the volumes for each sound, etc..). With the PseudoProgrammer its possible to re-mix the sound combinations offered on the original chip (eg. change a whistle, remove a sound), or alter the levels of individual elements.
                Its worth reading the Zimo manual alongside using the PseudoProgrammer tool; both are quite complicated; the JMRI tool tries to remove some of the complexity, but the tool does not know what is in the decoder, so you have to listen to each sound, wait for the "jingles", etc...
                (I've not checked these tools with Sprog, but they should work! They work fine with other command stations which support programming on the main).


                I can't give specific guidance on coreless on LokSound chips; I don't have anything with that combination, but you should be able to use the same approach for Programming On Main with Sprog. LokSound's do have similar chuff rate paramenters to Zimo.


                regards

                - Nigel


                --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Dear Nigel,
                >
                > I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant getting the chuff rate correctly set up whilst the loco's running, but there's probably other situations as well where this would be useful such as setting up Maxon motors with LokSound chips which don't seem to take to coreless motors as well as Zimo.
                > I think what I'm asking for is "programming on main". Not sure if the terminology is right as I use ZTC for running my layout, which I don't think has that facility?
                >
                > Andrew
                > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "ncliffe2001" <ncliffe@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Tuning in what sense ?
                > >
                > > There is making the motor run smoothly. Usually Zimo's work out of the box, though the Zimo manual has clues for the few cases where the default/automatic sections don't work.
                > > The Automatic Load Setting method works incredibly well; CV #302 = 75 read the Zimo manual **before** trying it.
                > >
                > > Then there is making the loco do what you want; setting speed ranges, acceleration, exponential acceleration, etc.
                > >
                > > Then there is matching sound to the loco speed; steam chuff rates, synchronisation, etc..
                > >
                > >
                > > - Nigel
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Thanks Nigel, I'll give that a go and report back. Incidentally can point me in the right direction for tuning a chip whilst the loco is running?
                > > > Kind regards
                > > > Andrew
                > > >
                > > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "ncliffe2001" <ncliffe@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Andrew,
                > > > > Please update your JMRI to 2.14. In the year since 2.10 there has been changes to the Zimo decoder files (and a lot of other changes)
                > > > >
                > > > > If its still problematic after an update , I'll look deeper into the decoder file definitions.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Nigel
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hello,
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I'm curretnly using Decoder Pro 2.10 which works pretty well with LokSound 3.5 and 4.0 chips. However I am now trying to set up a Zimo 646 sound chip (which does have quite an edge incidentally, on the Loksounds in terms of slow motor control) with my usual Sprog2 / Decoder Pro setup.
                > > > > > The problem is sporadic in that some of the CV settings that I change are accepted and saved, such as the de-cceleration rate and CV1 the loco identity no. But the accelerration rate and the motor "hertz" rate will not change. Or to be more accurate, I can change them and apparently write them to the loco but it changes back to the original setting straight after...very odd! I have tried attacking this problem via the specific tabs and in the general CV tab, but to no avail.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Can anyone throw any light on what the problem might be?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Kind regards
                > > > > > Andrew Duncan
                > > > > > PS I'd also like to be able to change CVs whilst running the loco through this setup. Is that an easy thing to do bearing in mind that I am as far from a computer programmer as you can imagine.
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • andrew_croslanduk
                Nigel s advice is spot on. Another way, however, would be to use a rolling road (or even connect it to the layout, BUT REMOVE ALL OTHER LOCOS FIRST!!!) with
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 3, 2012
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                  Nigel's advice is spot on.

                  Another way, however, would be to use a rolling road (or even connect it to the layout, BUT REMOVE ALL OTHER LOCOS FIRST!!!) with the SPROG in normal programming mode. It's a bit fiddly as you need to do separate program - run - program - run operations. You can't program whilst running but you can at least test run the loco after making a change.

                  Andrew Crosland

                  --- In sprog-dcc@..., "ncliffe2001" <ncliffe@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Andrew,
                  >
                  > I don't think ZTC do "programming on the main" (you could write and ask ZTC when they will be updating their system...), so we need a work around with the Sprog.
                  >
                  >
                  > Firstly, use the Sprog to read all the CV values in from your decoder and save the results in JMRI. Then, connect Sprog to layout - DISCONNECT THE ZTC completely before doing this !!! (or can use a long test track, or a rolling road), and change the Connection Preferences within JMRI to "Sprog Command Station".
                  > [ Tips for this: Its simplest if the Sprog is turned off and then on again between changing mode. And if you setup DecoderPro3 to be "Sprog" and PanelPro to be "Sprog Command Station", you get the appropriate one without having to change preferences each time ]
                  >
                  >
                  > The Sprog will now do programming on the main. FIRST, turn on the track power within JMRI. Next select a Throttle in JMRI and confirm your loco can be selected and driven, various functions work, etc.. ( Note that a JMRI throttle can be changed from slider to steps via right-click on the slider, and that speed/direction can be driven from keyboard arrow keys)
                  > Now, open the decoder settings previously saved for the loco.
                  >
                  > That gets it ready for Programming on the main.
                  >
                  > Get the speed curve working to your satisfaction; start speed, middle, top, or the 28-point curve. Check your speed curves back with the ZTC before proceeding as the ZTC track voltage is probably different to the Sprog and this may alter how they drive.
                  >
                  > Then, assuming you have JMRI 2.14 (current release), the chuff rate for Zimo can be set with two parameters. On the "Sound" tab, second column, the top two elements are the chuff rate. Set the upper one with the loco running at about speed step 15 or 20; ie. modest pace, but you can still easily see what is happening. With the lower, try to set it with the loco running at speed step 1. The values needed are hard to predict, just keep trying until it "works".
                  > Those two should get the chuffs working well, though it usually involves a lot of fine tuning over and over again.
                  >
                  > There are a few other tricks on the Sound panel which may be useful. The "blow off time" (3 parameters) allows the loco to clear its drains before moving off.
                  > I usually set the "threshold for deceleration" to 1 and the "duration of reduced volume on deceleration" to 250. That means a tiny reduction in throttle (one step) will shut the regulator and the loco will coast for 25 seconds. A small increase in regulator will bring the chuff noises back up. I find it makes the loco sounds much more controllable by the driver.
                  >
                  >
                  > You can also use a couple of tools for Zimo which are available from the "Scripts" command. These help with complex function mapping (usually for lights) and sound PseudoProgramming (selecting which sound files are played, which function key controls which sound, the volumes for each sound, etc..). With the PseudoProgrammer its possible to re-mix the sound combinations offered on the original chip (eg. change a whistle, remove a sound), or alter the levels of individual elements.
                  > Its worth reading the Zimo manual alongside using the PseudoProgrammer tool; both are quite complicated; the JMRI tool tries to remove some of the complexity, but the tool does not know what is in the decoder, so you have to listen to each sound, wait for the "jingles", etc...
                  > (I've not checked these tools with Sprog, but they should work! They work fine with other command stations which support programming on the main).
                  >
                  >
                  > I can't give specific guidance on coreless on LokSound chips; I don't have anything with that combination, but you should be able to use the same approach for Programming On Main with Sprog. LokSound's do have similar chuff rate paramenters to Zimo.
                  >
                  >
                  > regards
                  >
                  > - Nigel
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Dear Nigel,
                  > >
                  > > I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant getting the chuff rate correctly set up whilst the loco's running, but there's probably other situations as well where this would be useful such as setting up Maxon motors with LokSound chips which don't seem to take to coreless motors as well as Zimo.
                  > > I think what I'm asking for is "programming on main". Not sure if the terminology is right as I use ZTC for running my layout, which I don't think has that facility?
                  > >
                  > > Andrew
                  > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "ncliffe2001" <ncliffe@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Tuning in what sense ?
                  > > >
                  > > > There is making the motor run smoothly. Usually Zimo's work out of the box, though the Zimo manual has clues for the few cases where the default/automatic sections don't work.
                  > > > The Automatic Load Setting method works incredibly well; CV #302 = 75 read the Zimo manual **before** trying it.
                  > > >
                  > > > Then there is making the loco do what you want; setting speed ranges, acceleration, exponential acceleration, etc.
                  > > >
                  > > > Then there is matching sound to the loco speed; steam chuff rates, synchronisation, etc..
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > - Nigel
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thanks Nigel, I'll give that a go and report back. Incidentally can point me in the right direction for tuning a chip whilst the loco is running?
                  > > > > Kind regards
                  > > > > Andrew
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "ncliffe2001" <ncliffe@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Andrew,
                  > > > > > Please update your JMRI to 2.14. In the year since 2.10 there has been changes to the Zimo decoder files (and a lot of other changes)
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > If its still problematic after an update , I'll look deeper into the decoder file definitions.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Nigel
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Hello,
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I'm curretnly using Decoder Pro 2.10 which works pretty well with LokSound 3.5 and 4.0 chips. However I am now trying to set up a Zimo 646 sound chip (which does have quite an edge incidentally, on the Loksounds in terms of slow motor control) with my usual Sprog2 / Decoder Pro setup.
                  > > > > > > The problem is sporadic in that some of the CV settings that I change are accepted and saved, such as the de-cceleration rate and CV1 the loco identity no. But the accelerration rate and the motor "hertz" rate will not change. Or to be more accurate, I can change them and apparently write them to the loco but it changes back to the original setting straight after...very odd! I have tried attacking this problem via the specific tabs and in the general CV tab, but to no avail.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Can anyone throw any light on what the problem might be?
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Kind regards
                  > > > > > > Andrew Duncan
                  > > > > > > PS I'd also like to be able to change CVs whilst running the loco through this setup. Is that an easy thing to do bearing in mind that I am as far from a computer programmer as you can imagine.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • ncliffe2001
                  What Andrew says does, of course, work, but I find it is a pain in the neck to fine-tune chuff rates on a steam loco with program , run , back to program .
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 3, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    What Andrew says does, of course, work, but I find it is a pain in the neck to fine-tune chuff rates on a steam loco with "program", "run", "back to program".

                    Much easier to do it with Operations Mode (Programming on Main) using the approach I outlined, then the loco can tick along and you see the result, write a slight change and the chuff will change instantly, think about the result, change back, etc...

                    You can _only_ work Zimo Psuedo Programming for selecting various decoder sounds, mixing volumes, etc. with Operations Mode (Programming on Main).




                    - Nigel



                    --- In sprog-dcc@..., "andrew_croslanduk" <andrewcrosland@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Nigel's advice is spot on.
                    >
                    > Another way, however, would be to use a rolling road (or even
                    > connect it to the layout, BUT REMOVE ALL OTHER LOCOS FIRST!!!)
                    > with the SPROG in normal programming mode. It's a bit
                    > fiddly as you need to do separate program - run - program
                    > - run operations. You can't program whilst running but you
                    > can at least test run the loco after making a change.
                    >
                    > Andrew Crosland
                    >
                    > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "ncliffe2001" <ncliffe@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Andrew,
                    > >
                    > > I don't think ZTC do "programming on the main" (you could write and ask ZTC when they will be updating their system...), so we need a work around with the Sprog.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Firstly, use the Sprog to read all the CV values in from your decoder and save the results in JMRI. Then, connect Sprog to layout - DISCONNECT THE ZTC completely before doing this !!! (or can use a long test track, or a rolling road), and change the Connection Preferences within JMRI to "Sprog Command Station".
                    > > [ Tips for this: Its simplest if the Sprog is turned off and then on again between changing mode. And if you setup DecoderPro3 to be "Sprog" and PanelPro to be "Sprog Command Station", you get the appropriate one without having to change preferences each time ]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The Sprog will now do programming on the main. FIRST, turn on the track power within JMRI. Next select a Throttle in JMRI and confirm your loco can be selected and driven, various functions work, etc.. ( Note that a JMRI throttle can be changed from slider to steps via right-click on the slider, and that speed/direction can be driven from keyboard arrow keys)
                    > > Now, open the decoder settings previously saved for the loco.
                    > >
                    > > That gets it ready for Programming on the main.
                    > >
                    > > Get the speed curve working to your satisfaction; start speed, middle, top, or the 28-point curve. Check your speed curves back with the ZTC before proceeding as the ZTC track voltage is probably different to the Sprog and this may alter how they drive.
                    > >
                    > > Then, assuming you have JMRI 2.14 (current release), the chuff rate for Zimo can be set with two parameters. On the "Sound" tab, second column, the top two elements are the chuff rate. Set the upper one with the loco running at about speed step 15 or 20; ie. modest pace, but you can still easily see what is happening. With the lower, try to set it with the loco running at speed step 1. The values needed are hard to predict, just keep trying until it "works".
                    > > Those two should get the chuffs working well, though it usually involves a lot of fine tuning over and over again.
                    > >
                    > > There are a few other tricks on the Sound panel which may be useful. The "blow off time" (3 parameters) allows the loco to clear its drains before moving off.
                    > > I usually set the "threshold for deceleration" to 1 and the "duration of reduced volume on deceleration" to 250. That means a tiny reduction in throttle (one step) will shut the regulator and the loco will coast for 25 seconds. A small increase in regulator will bring the chuff noises back up. I find it makes the loco sounds much more controllable by the driver.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > You can also use a couple of tools for Zimo which are available from the "Scripts" command. These help with complex function mapping (usually for lights) and sound PseudoProgramming (selecting which sound files are played, which function key controls which sound, the volumes for each sound, etc..). With the PseudoProgrammer its possible to re-mix the sound combinations offered on the original chip (eg. change a whistle, remove a sound), or alter the levels of individual elements.
                    > > Its worth reading the Zimo manual alongside using the PseudoProgrammer tool; both are quite complicated; the JMRI tool tries to remove some of the complexity, but the tool does not know what is in the decoder, so you have to listen to each sound, wait for the "jingles", etc...
                    > > (I've not checked these tools with Sprog, but they should work! They work fine with other command stations which support programming on the main).
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I can't give specific guidance on coreless on LokSound chips; I don't have anything with that combination, but you should be able to use the same approach for Programming On Main with Sprog. LokSound's do have similar chuff rate paramenters to Zimo.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > regards
                    > >
                    > > - Nigel
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Dear Nigel,
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant getting the chuff rate correctly set up whilst the loco's running, but there's probably other situations as well where this would be useful such as setting up Maxon motors with LokSound chips which don't seem to take to coreless motors as well as Zimo.
                    > > > I think what I'm asking for is "programming on main". Not sure if the terminology is right as I use ZTC for running my layout, which I don't think has that facility?
                    > > >
                    > > > Andrew
                    > > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "ncliffe2001" <ncliffe@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Tuning in what sense ?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > There is making the motor run smoothly. Usually Zimo's work out of the box, though the Zimo manual has clues for the few cases where the default/automatic sections don't work.
                    > > > > The Automatic Load Setting method works incredibly well; CV #302 = 75 read the Zimo manual **before** trying it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Then there is making the loco do what you want; setting speed ranges, acceleration, exponential acceleration, etc.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Then there is matching sound to the loco speed; steam chuff rates, synchronisation, etc..
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > - Nigel
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Thanks Nigel, I'll give that a go and report back. Incidentally can point me in the right direction for tuning a chip whilst the loco is running?
                    > > > > > Kind regards
                    > > > > > Andrew
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "ncliffe2001" <ncliffe@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Andrew,
                    > > > > > > Please update your JMRI to 2.14. In the year since 2.10 there has been changes to the Zimo decoder files (and a lot of other changes)
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > If its still problematic after an update , I'll look deeper into the decoder file definitions.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Nigel
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In sprog-dcc@..., "Andrew Bluett-duncan" <andrew@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Hello,
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > I'm curretnly using Decoder Pro 2.10 which works pretty well with LokSound 3.5 and 4.0 chips. However I am now trying to set up a Zimo 646 sound chip (which does have quite an edge incidentally, on the Loksounds in terms of slow motor control) with my usual Sprog2 / Decoder Pro setup.
                    > > > > > > > The problem is sporadic in that some of the CV settings that I change are accepted and saved, such as the de-cceleration rate and CV1 the loco identity no. But the accelerration rate and the motor "hertz" rate will not change. Or to be more accurate, I can change them and apparently write them to the loco but it changes back to the original setting straight after...very odd! I have tried attacking this problem via the specific tabs and in the general CV tab, but to no avail.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Can anyone throw any light on what the problem might be?
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Kind regards
                    > > > > > > > Andrew Duncan
                    > > > > > > > PS I'd also like to be able to change CVs whilst running the loco through this setup. Is that an easy thing to do bearing in mind that I am as far from a computer programmer as you can imagine.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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